[RawToast]

Zgarbas Wrote:No N3 and below test takers? o.O

N4 this summer. I didn't finish RTK fast enough to take N5 this winter.

egoplant Wrote:Why would anyone take those?

Many, many reasons as long as the money isn't an issue.

* Nice targets to reach.
* Progression, for example pass N4 this summer, then try for N3 this winter.
* Check on your progress, even if it involves doing the same test again.
* Personally, I have never passed anything to do with languages; failed GCSE Spanish. So my first ever pass would really cement my faith in Anki/RTK.

I really don't understand the N1/N2 elitism which festers on other sites. When people do mile/5k/10k runs you don't get others commenting that their efforts are nothing because running a marathon is the only one that matters. Any step on the Japanese ladder should be seen as a great achievement.

egoplant Wrote:From what I hear they are kind of useless though, aren't they? Most people don't really bother until at least N2.

Overseas about 75k do N1, 75k do N2 and 75k do one of N3/N4/N5; so quite a lot of people are doing these tests. Many people advise to one other test before ploughing on to N2 to get used to the test environment.

[Zgarbas]

The N1/N2 elitism occasionally pops up around here as well =). In the end it's a matter of preference; some people like having physical proof of their current knowledge and setting goals for the near future, whereas others don't need it.
For me, taking the N5 was very rewarding, and the N4 gave me the necessary motivation to re-pick up my studies and keep to them. It also helped that I got a bit more used to the exam pressure, which is a big problem for me.

It's not necessarily "elitism" but also the experience that N1 is what will help you get a job in Japan, N2 possibly as a signal that you're already pretty far ahead in your language study. Anything lower than that is really just for yourself, or perhaps of use while you're still in uni, but not what you want to tell a potential employer.

Quote:Many, many reasons as long as the money isn't an issue.

Money, or travel time -- I never took a JLPT exam before 1kyuu because I lived too far from a testing site.

Irixmark Wrote:It's not necessarily "elitism" but also the experience that N1 is what will help you get a job in Japan, N2 possibly as a signal that you're already pretty far ahead in your language study.

I haven't taken the JLPT before, so out of curiosity, I looked at http://www.jlpt.jp/samples/forlearners.html, and did a run through taking all of their sample exams, for N5, N4, N3, N2, and N1.

I have to say that I'd be impressed with any learner who takes any one of these. I don't see any reason for an N5 or N4 test taker to feel left out. In fact, I didn't notice all that much of a qualitative difficulty difference between N5 and N1. N1 has kanji in the reading section, and N5 has little to none. N1 listening has very liesurely spoken passages, and N5 listening has pretty much the same types of passages, but just spoken even more slowly.

Some people have said to the effect that time spent on this forum is tantamount to procrastination, but one of the great things you get here are ideas from your peers for more activities to try. I may give the JLPT a try myself. As to what level, since I said I'm not an elitist, given a choice, I'd probably just pick a level randomly, or pick N5, since that one has the shortest duration.

Irixmark Wrote:It's not necessarily "elitism" but also the experience that N1 is what will help you get a job in Japan, N2 possibly as a signal that you're already pretty far ahead in your language study. Anything lower than that is really just for yourself, or perhaps of use while you're still in uni, but not what you want to tell a potential employer.

I took and passed the N3. The reason I took it is because I want to move to Japan this year. Even though I'm looking for jobs in English-speaking companies only, I thought having the N3 is still better than nothing. I don't think it's very relevant or that anyone would ask to see the certificate but at least I can now officially claim that I have (lower-)intermediate Japanese. Even if it's not required for the job, it might still be a bonus over another similarly-qualified applicant who doesn't study Japanese. So in that sense, I think that putting the N3 on your CV can be a good thing (unless Japanese is actually a requirement for the job).

[Zgarbas]

The samples are easier than what's on the exam . It is a business after all, you don't want people to feel put off before they give you their money.

I for one found the reading sections in N5/N4/N3 a bit harder than the N2 because there's so much hiragana; the texts themselves are easier of course, but the lack of kanji really confuses me >.< (not to mention the "long passages-general comprehension" parts, since they take up precious time).

As for the job things, IIRC lots of people on the forum went for jobs which required the N4, so it depends on the job. Some places that were hiring ALTs also mentioned that candidates with any level of the JLPT were favored, even if it was the N5). I didn't look much into it, but it varies =).

Zgarbas Wrote:The samples are easier than what's on the exam

Ah, all the more reason for me to be impressed - and for me to take N5.

When I originally read the thread, I pictured JLPT as being more varied, like maybe in N5, you just have to be able to recite the alphabet, and in N1, you have to answer questions on classical literature. But I see now that across the board, it's a more fixed format than that. They give pretty much the same format test, but with more words, and a higher proportion of kanji at the harder levels.

I wonder how JLPT performance compares with educational level in Japanese? From my very limited experience with language students, I'd guess that a native English speaker with a BA in Japanese would be able to pass N2 or N3. And from my experience watching my younger Japanese sibling go through school, I'd guess that a native Japanese third grader would be able to pass N1.

It's interesting that there are people find kanji easier here. I guess that reflects the progression order of RTK learners. To me, it's simultaneously enviable and mysterious. When I'm on FNN News, listening to the video is fine, and makes me almost feel like a normal Japanese person, but I have to work really slowly through the exact same words in the written transcript to be able to make sense out of those mute ideographs!

[Zgarbas]

^^' I didn't go through with RTK actually. It's not that I find all kanji easier, but all-hiragana makes it a bit tiring (separating the words, homonyms, etc) and kanjis can be a good hint for words you don't know. You can find some pre-switch subjects and see for yourself. Kanji themselves are hard but they are there for a reason =).

The format is fixed with minor differences (they're all listed on the jlpt site, but basically N5 has more fixed expressions, long passages with general comprehension, whereas the N2 was more about exceptions, the ability to put in into context and what not). Don't know how the N1 is like, but you don't see anything too advanced on any language exam, even if it is C2 =).

As for the BA, it depends on what they did during their BA, and on where they did it . Around here colleges aim for the kids to be about N3 level when they graduate.

Quote:I wonder how JLPT performance compares with educational level in Japanese? From my very limited experience with language students, I'd guess that a native English speaker with a BA in Japanese would be able to pass N2 or N3. And from my experience watching my younger Japanese sibling go through school, I'd guess that a native Japanese third grader would be able to pass N1.

All my experience with the JLPT is before they reworked the level system, but I would say that the old 2kyuu is pretty close to everything my university Japanese 4 class covered, and that's supposed to be roughly the same level as N2.

I'm not sure that a Japanese 3rd grader could pass N1, because it has a fair amount of political/economic/current events vocabulary, as well as making some pretty fine distinctions between similar-looking kanji that are above the 3rd grade kanji list. Maybe around 8th grade is more like it?

Fillanzea Wrote:I'm not sure that a Japanese 3rd grader could pass N1, because it has a fair amount of political/economic/current events vocabulary, as well as making some pretty fine distinctions between similar-looking kanji that are above the 3rd grade kanji list. Maybe around 8th grade is more like it?

In terms of matching curriculua with some figures such as kanji grade levels, that may match. But I was thinking in terms of a Japanese 3rd grader passing N1 at about the same rate as other N1 test takers, that is a pass rate of around 50%.

Similarly to how your vocabulary is not strictly defined by what words you were required to learn at what grades, it's often striking how Japanese children also vary widely in their kanji literacy, with what they have to learn in school being just a base. Maybe one reason for this is how much kanji above their level they're constantly reading - with furigana on them. Each page of these books is like a dozen flashcards.

Plus, they have a deeper set of the language internalized for them to draw on, which would allow better educated guesses from among the four choices. And, they're likely to rack up a perfect score in the listening section. And the pass bar is not very high - 100/180? Combining all these factors, guessing that 50% of third grade children would pass N1 sounds like a pretty conservative guess. I'd have been willing to bet money on my sister passing N1 at 2nd grade.

Mushi Wrote:I'd have been willing to bet money on my sister passing N1 at 2nd grade.

I should add though, that confidentally, our mother was one of those "tiger moms" who made us start reading and studying calligraphy around preschool, and made us memorize materials from a grade or so above us - so that we'd be prepared in case we were cryogenically frozen for a year, I guess??

Mushi Wrote:I'd have been willing to bet money on my sister passing N1 at 2nd grade.

[Zgarbas]

I don't know how many issues a 3rd grader would have with the actual language of the N1(there's politics, business and keigo around there), but I think their main problem would be with reading comprehension&spending 4 hours in an exam. I guess that depends on the 3rg grader though.
And maybe with the fixed grammar rules which are sometimes the only hint that separates one correct answer from the other; it's not that kids don't use correct grammar when they speak, but when we studied stuff like how to conjugate verbs in Romanian we'd often get the answers wrong simply because we weren't used to looking at it in an academical perspective (conjugate a verb when you're talking? No prob. Choose the correct conjugation for school? Braindead ). Either way, meta-problems .

Zgarbas Wrote:I don't know how many issues a 3rd grader would have with the actual language of the N1(there's politics, business and keigo around there), but I think their main problem would be with reading comprehension&spending 4 hours in an exam. I guess that depends on the 3rg grader though.

I'm finding it fun to speculate what JLPT levels correspond to what, but yes, from what you're saying, I'm becoming more aware that the balance of abilities between a 3rd grader and a JSL learner is very different. It becomes almost like Starwars vs. Star Trek.

I definitely don't doubt that the third grader would struggle. I picture him owning listening, and on reading, tripping up on high grade kanji, but also able to draw on native grammar intuition and higher reading speed on familiar characters, if he's naturally well read. Keigo shouldn't be a problem - to a kid, that's simply how mom and dad have talked for years - when there are guests over, when you're going to the doctor's office with them, when the landlord comes to get rent, or when they're talking to their boss on the phone. I suspect a third grader would have an even chance of passing or failing.

An eighth grader though, which someone else mentioned - there's just no question. That would be a young teen - a beast in any native language. That's the age when Anne Frank started writing in her diary. We can't beat that at the intermediate foreign learner stage!

[Zgarbas]

Eh, it's all speculation anyway. Why don't you have your younger sister try out for the JLPT as well? (or is it more expensive in the US?)

I guess it's all just speculation, but having worked in Japanese elementary schools for 4 years and seen the mistakes young students make on even very simple kanji I very much doubt an average 3rd grader would do well on JLPT 1. For example, in some lessons with 3rd and 4th graders they were doing research into foreign cultures and I would often print information off the internet to help them. At least 80-90% of them would find it pretty much impossible to read things aimed at adults, such as stuff on wikipedia.You can say they might only trip up on the high grade kanji, but in reality almost all of the kanji questions will be about kanji they haven't learnt yet. I'm sure there are 3rd graders who could pass it and even do well, but I don't think it would be the case for an average 3rd grader. I'd say maybe once you're talking about 5th or 6th graders then things would be different.

Also, although the passing score is for JLPT 1 is 100/180 which suggests you only need about 55% to pass, due to the complicated scoring system that isn't actually the case.

I got my 合格通知書 today!



I wish I had taken a better picture now though... I might re-take the test just to get a better picture on this thing.

[Zgarbas]

o.O you get pictures on the certificate? Is it a N1/Japan thing?

Congrats, by the way

Thanks! I'm not sure if it's Japan only since this was the only time I've taken the test. I'd rather not have my picture on it though..

Actually, I'm not sure if this is the same thing as the official sheet I have to pay ¥1000 for or not...

[Zgarbas]

Oh, I did hear something about extra costs in Japan. I hope there's no picture on mine （笑）
（also, completely random but, it's pretty awesome that your real name is Seth.)

4 points shy of passing N3. I didn`t expect to pass it at the time and I didn`t - only 4 points shy.

Now I`m trying to decide whether it`d be possible to step it up a notch and aim for that N2.

N1

97/180 Overall (only 3 points!)

45/60 Language Knowledge
Vocab: B
Grammar: B
19/60 Reading (very confusing, about a 10 pt drop from the mock tests)
33/60 Listening

To my surprise, I did the best on the language knowledge section, although I thought it was the hardest.

My next target is 100% in July.

callmedodge Wrote:4 points shy of passing N3. I didn`t expect to pass it at the time and I didn`t - only 4 points shy.

Now I`m trying to decide whether it`d be possible to step it up a notch and aim for that N2.

I think the answer to this question is yes. If you're studying consistently then N3 will be a cakewalk to the point of being a waste of money by the time the next test rolls around. Are you planning to take the next test in June or December?

Can't believe I passed N1. I was 100% sure I failed because I totally bombed the listening, didn't understand a word and literally just guessed the answers

43/60 vocab/grammar
40/60 reading
22/60 listening

105/180 total score (58%)

I thought you had to pass each individual section to pass the test? Also I thought the passmark was 70%? Apparently not.

Its nice to have the certificate I guess (no picture on mine btw) but I am nowhere near satisfied, so I will take it again next year.