blankkor Wrote:Why impose your views on this subject when it doesn't affect you at all?

Doesn't affect who? I'd take a bet that there are tons of people on this site who are and will be affected by racism in their lives. Not only just for the fact that it's purely offensive to have to read (which is bad enough already), but also the inequality and injustice that racism and racist stereotypes give rise to. What just seems like a tasteless joke to you helps perpetuate the same stereotypes that mean that someone else gets shot because they "look like a criminal", or are stopped by the police multiple times even though they haven't broken any laws, or get passed over for jobs, and the same racist ideas that perpetuate the myth that anyone who isn't white is "uncivilised".

@AlgoRhythmic: i can't think of a better example right now, but for instance, if i stick two fingers up at you, it doesn't make it any less disrespectful if nobody's looking. Whether something is disrespectful or not is about an attitude, not about whether anyone is watching you do it.

IceCream Wrote:@AlgoRhythmic: i can't think of a better example right now, but for instance, if i stick two fingers up at you, it doesn't make it any less disrespectful if nobody's looking. Whether something is disrespectful or not is about an attitude, not about whether anyone is watching you do it.

Your reasoning is flawed here, because you are now assuming that I am actually a racist towards black people just because I used a racist story to learn a Kanji. This is false, I am actually not a racist and have nothing against black people, I merely used that story because it helped me remember. But yes I agree, if I was actually a racist then yes that might be disrespectful even if I didn't share those opinions (though it could still be argued). Just using the story as a memory aid without agreeing with the content is not disrespectful though, surely you must agree with that?

Its amusing to open up the 3rd page and read "RACCCIISM" and then look at the OP and not see anything about it. We got here in 3 pages, amazing.

That said. I am in agreement with the people that you should be able to use whatever mnemonic you want. I also see the other side of the issue where some people lack a skin for these kind of things.

The solution is obvious. We need a new feature where a story can be flagged as "Explicit." There can be an option in a person's account to allow them to block/show explicit stories. I'm sure this will also appeal to the prudes/feminists who don't like anything sexual in their stories too. If not in the account, then you can add a drop down box at the top of each story page or a Hide/Show link toggle, that is defaulted to "Hide explicit" there can be a grey/light text which reads "# stories hidden." To show if there are any stories hidden. People can "Report" the stories and mods/admin can flag as explicit as necessary.

AlgoRhythmic Wrote:

IceCream Wrote:@AlgoRhythmic: i can't think of a better example right now, but for instance, if i stick two fingers up at you, it doesn't make it any less disrespectful if nobody's looking. Whether something is disrespectful or not is about an attitude, not about whether anyone is watching you do it.

Your reasoning is flawed here, because you are now assuming that I am actually a racist towards black people just because I used a racist story to learn a Kanji. This is false, I am actually not a racist and have nothing against black people, I merely used that story because it helped me remember. But yes I agree, if I was actually a racist then yes that might be disrespectful even if I didn't share those opinions (though it could still be argued). Just using the story as a memory aid without agreeing with the content is not disrespectful though, surely you must agree with that?

If a black person is looking over your shoulder while you are reviewing that kanji on a smartphone, don't be surprised if you're shot on sight. I wouldn't blame them.

chamcham Wrote:If a black person is looking over your shoulder while you are reviewing that kanji on a smartphone, don't be surprised if you're shot on sight. I wouldn't blame them.

You wouldn't blame them for murdering me over a stupid kanji story? Wow you seem like a nice person.

EDIT:
Actually, what did you even want to say with your post? I don't get it.

vix86 Wrote:[...]I also see the other side of the issue where some people lack a skin for these kind of things.

The solution is obvious. We need a new feature where a story can be flagged as "Explicit." There can be an option in a person's account to allow them to block/show explicit stories. I'm sure this will also appeal to the prudes/feminists who don't like anything sexual in their stories too. If not in the account, then you can add a drop down box at the top of each story page or a Hide/Show link toggle, that is defaulted to "Hide explicit" there can be a grey/light text which reads "# stories hidden." To show if there are any stories hidden. People can "Report" the stories and mods/admin can flag as explicit as necessary.

My thoughts (almost) exactly.

vix86 Wrote:The solution is obvious. We need a new feature where a story can be flagged as "Explicit." There can be an option in a person's account to allow them to block/show explicit stories. I'm sure this will also appeal to the prudes/feminists who don't like anything sexual in their stories too. If not in the account, then you can add a drop down box at the top of each story page or a Hide/Show link toggle, that is defaulted to "Hide explicit" there can be a grey/light text which reads "# stories hidden." To show if there are any stories hidden. People can "Report" the stories and mods/admin can flag as explicit as necessary.

I believe 'Vix86' has presented a reasonable proposal that could solve this issue entirely.

Although I feel the "Magnet" story is worded with blatant racism and needs to be either edited or deleted, some may fear that this could start a domino-effect of 'editing' many other stories. In fact, one could even argue that the wording of "The Japanese" in a story, is a sort of stereo-typing--negative or whatnot. I understand concerns about the harm of over-editing, so I feel Vix86's proposal could be the perfect solution for everyone.

Stian Wrote:So you compare a tasteless joke to a malicious outburst? This seems like causing a storm in a glass of water...

It's not a tasteless joke, it's a overtly racist expression of a negative stereotype, racial slurs and all, being recommended as mnemonic. Even if it was a joke, it wouldn't matter. Racist jokes are designed to insult and demean the race they are making fun of. (Not to say that all jokes that are about race or race relations are insulting and demeaning - just that jokes that are insulting and demeaning to a particular race are racist.) It's not my decision, but if it were my site I would remove such stories.

AlgoRhythmic Wrote:Your reasoning is flawed here, because you are now assuming that I am actually a racist towards black people just because I used a racist story to learn a Kanji. This is false, I am actually not a racist and have nothing against black people, I merely used that story because it helped me remember. But yes I agree, if I was actually a racist then yes that might be disrespectful even if I didn't share those opinions (though it could still be argued). Just using the story as a memory aid without agreeing with the content is not disrespectful though, surely you must agree with that?

So, if, for example, supposing I know you personally, I could use stories about how your mother is a dirty whore if that helps me remember kanji. It wouldn't be offensive, because the fact that I write that your mother is a donkeyfucking whore doesn't mean that I actually think that's true?

I'm not arguing against you here, nor trying to make you change your mind. I'm just trying to understand how consistent are you in your reasoning.


About the discussion on racism, it seems here there is a conflict involving two values: free speech and respect to other people.

Free speech:

If you don't have free speech, privileged groups of people can impose their world view on the rest, silencing anyone who dares to oppose them.

In this respect, I understand and partially agree with those who think they prefer people using their free speech and being openly mean, rather than being forced to be "respectful" and just be mean in private, without letting people know how they really are.

Respect:

Lack of respect can deteriorate people's quality of life, and yes, it can even kill people. For example, in the past they used to say that black and indigenous people didn't have a soul, so it was right to use them as slaves. Even nowadays there are people who say that women that dress "provocatively" deserve being raped. People have also killed themselves because they can't tolerate a life of being discriminated for being too dark, too poor, too foreign, too feminine, or too whatever people that surround them judge as not worth of respect. Also, on big scale lack of respect can lead to social inequality and unrest.



Sometimes both values clash with each other. Sometimes probably there isn't a right answer, especially within such a generic context as kanji stories in a public website.

More important than finding who is right or wrong, I think that we should take this as an opportunity to try to see the issue through other people's eyes, and try to ask ourselves why other people react in one or another way towards some things.

I personally like a lot black humor, but I can see how it's different when people laugh on something that you can relate to. For example, lots of people use words like "gay" or "retarded" as insults, but they would probably feel different about it if they had a brother/sister homosexual or with neurological problems.

In general, I think that if you say something about a person or group of people in public that you wouldn't say to them in their face, probably you should think better about it before you open your mouth or hit the keyboard.



Concretely in this case, I think vix86's idea of tagging stories would be very useful. I remember there have been many discussions in the past about tagging stories, though then people were thinking of tagging stories to separate them by language. This is another use for story tags that would be very interesting too.


BTW, people, please take a deep breath before posting. There's no need to insult each other.

lhong1987 Wrote:Hello all, this is my first post.

I've been using Heisig's book for about four days.
Along with android app called Obenkyo, I've learned upto chapter 7 so far.

I'm just a bit frustrated with some of the stories Heisig made up for the kanji.
For example, walking stick in a mouth? (中) It's just a line going through the "middle" which is the meaning of the letter anyhow.

As the lessons go on to more complicated kanji, some of the stories seems to be really absurd.

RTK isn't just a book, or a collection of stories. It's a system, and an important part of the beauty of it is that you can adapt it to your needs. If you don't like Heisig's stories, check those shared in this site, or just create your own. With practice you will learn what works best for you. In my opinion, one of the virtues of RTK is not just helping you learn kanji, but helping you to know how your own mind works better, and how to learn anything in general.

Quote:I feel like continued use of RTK will prevent me from learning the real meaning of the words and ultimately lead to confusion later.

That worry is very common, but from personal experience and what I see here, there's no need to worry about that. Think that RTK will take you just a limited time, while if you want to learn Japanese, you will be spending years with the language. RTK is like those little wheels people put on kids bicycles. They're there just to help you while you can't keep balance by yourself. Once you find your balance, you will be using them less and less.

Quote:I believe the only way to learn kanji properly is to see it from the view point of the creator. These are symbolic letters and the combination of symbols and the meaning should have connection.

Kanji were originally born thousands of years ago. In my opinion, pretending to use the etymology to learn each kanji is like trying to learn the whole biography of people several thousand years old to remember the cast of a movie with thousands of actors.

You have to consider that in all that time kanji have evolved, changed meanings, pronunciations, been replaced with other kanji, etc, so learning etymology in many cases can be overkill and counterproductive.

IMHO, systematical study of etymology is rather for people that like etymology by itself (rather than as a tool to learn to read or write) or people who can already read/write and want to know more about kanji. Of course, that doesn't mean that you should abandon etymology at all, but it will probably more productive for you if you use it just as one more resource for stories to remember kanji.

Quote:Current plan is to learn kanji by etymology in the order of school level.

There are several opinions on this too, but, after all, there's a reason why they call it "school level order". It makes sense if you're a Japanese kid living in Japan, starting your first year of school and planning to spend the rest of your life that way until you finish school. If you're a foreign learning Japanese outside of Japan, and want to learn as much as you can in a couple of months, rather than years, then I think RTK is a great framework for your learning.


I think you're worrying too much (which isn't bad by itself, as long as you don't fall into analysis paralysis). I think it would be productive and enjoyable for you to follow RTK, using etymology from books like Henshall's guide when you don't find good stories in RTK or here and can't think of a good one on your one, or when you just feel curious about some particular character, or when you just feel like learning some etymology for the kicks.

Good luck!

The biggest problem with etymologies is that they're too complicated and often rely on obsolete forms of the kanji or elements, rare or obsolete meanings, elements that are used primarily (or only) for sound, etc. I seriously doubt that you can use Henshall alone to learn large numbers of kanji. It's not systematic or organized.

yudantaiteki Wrote:The biggest problem with etymologies is that they're too complicated and often rely on obsolete forms of the kanji or elements, rare or obsolete meanings, elements that are used primarily (or only) for sound, etc. I seriously doubt that you can use Henshall alone to learn large numbers of kanji. It's not systematic or organized.

I used the Henshall book before I encountered RTK and it got me nowhere.
Even if you could memorize all the etymologies, you would hardly ever use that knowledge for anything.

I doubt most Japanese could give you the etymology for any kanji. Kind of like how English native speakers can't give etymologies for any words. Probably the only English speakers that learn etymologies these days are children training for spelling bees and their coaches.

Sebastian Wrote:So, if, for example, supposing I know you personally, I could use stories about how your mother is a dirty whore if that helps me remember kanji. It wouldn't be offensive, because the fact that I write that your mother is a donkeyfucking whore doesn't mean that I actually think that's true?

I'm not arguing against you here, nor trying to make you change your mind. I'm just trying to understand how consistent are you in your reasoning.

First of all, if you read all the posts in the discussion you would notice that I am specifically arguing for usage of offensive stories for your own personal learning, not necessarily sharing them on the Internet for all to read. I even stated earlier that if the owners of this site feel that racist stories are inappropriate then by all means remove them, but what stories people use in their heads shouldn't matter to anyone but themselves.

So to answer your specific question, if you kept your story to yourself, while recognizing the fact that you in reality really don't know anything about my mother or what she is, then sure go ahead and use what you want. When it comes to sharing stories, I personally believe it is worse to point out specific individuals or their mothers as donkeyfucking whores than joke about entire ethnicities of people, but I guess that you could argue about that.

EDIT:
But I would assume that you too would find it more offensive if someone wrote a story on this site about you specifically or your mother than if someone was making a racist joke about your ethnicity, right?

IceCream Wrote:

blankkor Wrote:Why impose your views on this subject when it doesn't affect you at all?

Doesn't affect who? I'd take a bet that there are tons of people on this site who are and will be affected by racism in their lives. Not only just for the fact that it's purely offensive to have to read (which is bad enough already), but also the inequality and injustice that racism and racist stereotypes give rise to. What just seems like a tasteless joke to you helps perpetuate the same stereotypes that mean that someone else gets shot because they "look like a criminal", or are stopped by the police multiple times even though they haven't broken any laws, or get passed over for jobs, and the same racist ideas that perpetuate the myth that anyone who isn't white is "uncivilised".

@AlgoRhythmic: i can't think of a better example right now, but for instance, if i stick two fingers up at you, it doesn't make it any less disrespectful if nobody's looking. Whether something is disrespectful or not is about an attitude, not about whether anyone is watching you do it.

I'm not white and I remember encountering at least 3 stories which were racist(Not necessarily stereotypical, just flat out racist) towards my ethnicity, hateful towards my country and so on. I am "affected" by racism almost everywhere I go to online and yet I don't cry about it and demand it to be removed in a futile attempt to cleanse the internet of things that make me mad. This is our history, like it or not. It is because of people who were offended or otherwise in disagreement about X that a large portion of our literary history was burned to ashes. With no offense to anyone here, it seems that only white people are concerned about this story(Of course I can't speak for everyone, as the forum doesn't show your skin color) while those who are actually affected by racism don't even flinch. If it helps people remember the Kanji, why then would you deprive them of that story just so you could feel better?

To me, it's not about "crying about it" or having no "skin", making futile demands to cleanse the internet, forcing people to hide their racism, or anything like that. I think these are simply false depictions that undermine the real issues, and try to make people think that they shouldn't speak out against racism, for fear they'll be called cry babies or something. The simple fact is that racist comments and stereotypes, apart from being offensive, do help to perpetuate the more concrete social injustices racism causes as a whole. I don't think you can get rid of one and just keep the other, because so often you find out that beneath the words, that is actually what people think, and they just pretend it's a joke when it's actually what they believe.

And no, it's not about forcing these people underground with their hate, they simply need to learn and understand why racism is wrong, which can't be done while everyone treats it like a joke and comes out in defense of it.

As for the freedom argument, i really do believe in freedom of speech, unless it starts limiting the freedom of others (such as when people have to deal with hate speech all the time). I don't agree with the burning or banning of books or ideas in general. That doesn't mean i shouldn't say something when i see somebody say something that's racist, offensive, or otherwise disrespectful though. If i do that i may as well just pat them on the back and nod along.

Besides which, this is an educational site, and racism simply should not be tolerated in that context. How would you feel about a textbook that used racist stereotypes to teach maths, for example? I don't think an "explicit" button cuts it really. It's nothing like the same as a non offensive story containing sex, which certain people might simply not want to see.

Right, racism is our history. Nothing can change that. But it doesn't have to be our future!!! We don't have to stand for it. The thing is, the only way things actually change is by people speaking out, and changing what is seen as socially acceptable and what isn't.

If people who are affected by racism in their daily lives don't flinch, it's because it is so common, and they've probably got bigger injustices to worry about than how people use words. That doesn't make it ok though. It doesn't mean they should have to deal with racist remarks on a daily basis. And again, i don't think you can divorce racist comments from actual injustices. So by defending one, you accidentally end up defending the other.

quark Wrote:Offensive jokes are pretty much only funny when they challenge stereotypes and preconceived ideas. A joke involving black people making trouble and attracting the police, and using a racial slur to boot, is not such a joke. Also, last time I checked, this is a private site, meaning the site owners can censor things if they deem them inappropriate.

Doesn't change the fact that you're clamoring for censorship, even though the owners made it pretty obvious that they prefer an open website.

Political correctness is the belief that the mere expression of an idea can cause injury, and its proponents take no responsibility for their inability to handle any views they dislike. Political correctness followed to its logical end is fascism. People who make it their mission to pressure private individuals into silencing opposing points of view will do the same with the government, eventually.

Stansfield123 Wrote:Political correctness is the belief that the mere expression of an idea can cause injury, and its proponents take no responsibility for their inability to handle any views they dislike. Political correctness followed to its logical end is fascism. People who make it their mission to pressure private individuals into silencing opposing points of view will do the same with the government, eventually.

This is wrong, Sir. Never has anyone set themselves up as "politically correct". "Political correctness" is a term used by people who want to keep the status quo to make their opposition seem laughable by turning them into a joke. It's always been a negative term.

IceCream Wrote:As for the freedom argument, i really do believe in freedom of speech, unless it starts limiting the freedom of others (such as when people have to deal with hate speech all the time).

You believe in freedom of speech, except for speech you don't think should be allowed because it's hard to deal with. Excellent.

Why is it that you feel that your own freedom is so very much more important than anyone elses? For someone who seems to value freedom so highly, you have an extremely limited view of what freedom actually is. Sorry, you don't have the right to the complete freedom to treat others however you choose when you live in a society, other people have their own rights and interests that have to be balanced with your own. Deal with it.

IceCream Wrote:Why is it that you feel that your own freedom is so very much more important than anyone elses? Sorry, you don't have the right to the complete freedom to treat others however you choose when you live in a society, other people have their own rights and interests that have to be balanced with your own. Deal with it.

It almost sounds like you're arguing for a make-believe 'freedom to suppress'.

No, i'm arguing for people to have a freedom from being impacted by racism.

If someone slaps you in the face, that's not allowed in society. The mechanism by which racism oppresses whole groups of people is far more insidious and pervasive than violent oppression. The scars aren't as visible. This isn't about non white people being "weak" or curling up in a ball crying in a corner because they've been insulted. It's only the other side that tries to present it that way. But even if it was, that wouldn't be a good reason to victim blame anyway. I doubt the same argument would be made about other forms of bullying. After all, why draw the line at physically hurting someone, anyway? People can train themselves not to feel physical pain too (e.g.

). So people shouldn't complain if someone stabs them, right?

Perhaps someone else can explain this better than me though, since i'm clearly not getting through to anyone. Whatever.

IceCream Wrote:No, i'm arguing for people to have a freedom from being impacted by racism.

That statement is as equally ridiculous in both content and meaning to "Children should have the option of being immortal, and not being told that death exists"
Racism exists, even if you choose to bury your head under a pile of sand(Or in this case, force everyone around you to do so) it will still be there. Hiding from it is futile just as hiding from any other "not-so-pleasant" fact of life. I get that some of you argue that this is an educational website and that 'racist material' should not be tolerated. We're all adults here, and even those who aren't quite there yet are mature enough to know that this world isn't sugar spice and everything nice.

IceCream Wrote:If someone slaps you in the face, that's not allowed in society.

There's little to say on that, but mainly that comparing violence to (just barely) verbal abuse is absurd. I hate to bring out the obvious 'Sticks and stones' argument, but that's what it is.

IceCream Wrote:The mechanism by which racism oppresses whole groups of people is far more insidious and pervasive than violent oppression. The scars aren't as visible. This isn't about non white people being "weak" or curling up in a ball crying in a corner because they've been insulted.

As someone who doesn't go by a week without getting blasted by racial slurs, you're talking absolute bullshit. Does it offend me when people call me those names? Sure, it does. Does it anger me? A bit. But you know what I do? Instead of demanding it to stop, instead of burying my head in the sand - I listen to what they have to say if it interests me, and then I applaud those who let them go on because everyone should be able to voice their opinion regardless of how retarded it is.

You can not say you support freedom of speech while supporting the suppression of something you don't like. I for one, am an advocate of free speech regardless of what it entails, and I personally think anyone who isn't is lying to himself and those around him. Just remember that freedom of speech should not be taken for granted. If you suppress the voice of others some day your voice will be suppressed as well because someone will deem it 'hateful' or otherwise damaging to his name.

Everyone can have whatever opinion they want if there is freedom of speech. However, that also means everyone will be allowed to call you out on what you say and hold you responsible. People act as if freedom of speech means that you're also free from the repercussions of having your face smashed if you insult Mike Tyson's mother. It doesn't work like that, guys.

Zlarp Wrote:Everyone can have whatever opinion they want if there is freedom of speech. However, that also means everyone will be allowed to call you out on what you say and hold you responsible. People act as if freedom of speech means that you're also free from the repercussions of having your face smashed if you insult Mike Tyson's mother. It doesn't work like that, guys.

I was going to type a response to Stansfield123 but you've summed up what I was going to say perfectly.
I wasn't 'clamoring for censorship', by the way. I was merely stating that it's up to the site owners whether or mot to censor certain things.
I'm actually very anti-censorship. People are free to say whatever hateful thing they want. But I'm also allowed to call them out on it and try to challenge what they're saying.
If anyone is trying to silence opinions, it's you Stansfield123.

quark Wrote:I'm actually very anti-censorship. People are free to say whatever hateful thing they want. But I'm also allowed to call them out on it and try to challenge what they're saying.

I like this attitude very much, and I 100% agree.

Also, no matter what our opinions are on free speech and racism I think we can all agree to that there are valid reasons for both censoring and not censoring the public stories here, and that it depends on what kind of community you want and what you value most out of the different pros and cons of both options.