yudantaiteki Wrote:

Norman Wrote:

Stansfield123 Wrote:OK, so it's racist. Now what? Sure, the troll who wrote that is a moron. But anyone who allows themselves to be bothered by some random moron acting like himself: not that far behind.

And someone who thinks it should be censored: even worse.

Actually, I strongly disagree with your position. An educationally based website should have some censorship regarding language that is blantant racism.

Agreed. I also have to shake my head at someone who thinks wanting to remove an offensive and racist story from the site is "even worse" than someone who would submit such a story.

I have personally found that offensive stories, specifically explicit make it harder for me to remember, so I personally haven't used any. With that said, I remember laughing when I came across this story and I really didn't think anything of it beyond that. Is it racist? Sure. Should it be censored? Absolutely not.

Let's be honest here, apart from an unspoken minority, this site is mainly composed of adults and mid/late-teens due to the difficulty of the subject at hand. Even if it is here to serve an educational purpose those who are exposed to it are most likely old enough to take it without crying hysterically and crawling into a fetal position. I personally encountered several stories which displayed racism towards my ethnicity, my country, my religion and so forth and I didn't think nothing of it.

I get it that some people are offended by it, and to those people I say 'loosen up'. It offends you, so what? I assume you're old enough to realize that throughout life you'll encounter many things that offend you, does that mean we should remove them so you could feel better about yourself knowing that you made the 'bad things' go away? Just punch the nearest wall and move on, I say.

It makes the site look childish and unmaintained.

If there are other racist stories they should be removed as well. If someone can't learn the kanji without racist stories, they shouldn't be learning a foreign language in the first place.

Those who complain about content of the stories (which are means) clearly forget what these stories are for (the ends). Maybe they should reflect on some classic politicians... Machiavelli comes to mind.

You know what, it hurts my head to debate with people who think it's cool to defend racism on the internets, and I don't even use the stories anyway so do whatever you want.

Defending racist jokes =/= defending racism

Racist jokes often illustrates how ridiculous and illogical racism actually is.

Sometimes the top rated stories are useless though, as people kind of choose one story and +rate another. I can't recall seing "group of people of African descent" being used in later occurances of that primitive.

yudantaiteki Wrote:It makes the site look childish and unmaintained.

If there are other racist stories they should be removed as well. If someone can't learn the kanji without racist stories, they shouldn't be learning a foreign language in the first place.

But if you can learn it FASTER by using racist stories, of course you should do that! We're not idiots, we don't take these stories as facts, they are just memory aids. Actually, the magnet kanji (with the band of niggers story) is one of the kanjis I will probably never forget, because that story (and the fact that it was ranked so high) made me laugh a lot, so it completely stuck in my memory. I also starred it because of that, not because the content is friendly but because it actually helped me remember the kanji, which is what matters.

Well of course!! You should also mow down a few little kids in the street as long as it gets you where you're going faster. Scam people out of their money as long as you make a healthy profit. Or kill a few people to use as manure and make your garden grow really really nicely. Why not.

p.s. yeah. and racism is totally hilarious too.

IceCream Wrote:Well of course!! You should also mow down a few little kids in the street as long as it gets you where you're going faster. Scam people out of their money as long as you make a healthy profit. Or kill a few people to use as manure and make your garden grow really really nicely. Why not.

p.s. yeah. and racism is totally hilarious too.

Serious question. How am I hurting anybody or affecting anyones life by using racist stories in my head, which I of course am not stupid enough to take as facts? Please do elaborate on that, thank you. Comparing that to mowing down little kids in the street is so retarded I can't possibly take you seriously after this post.

And no, racism in real life isn't very hilarious, but using it as a joke in a story can be so yes. And if you don't agree, then you don't have to use that story, it's really not harder than that.

Edited. Please do not insult other forum members

if you get offended by racist kanji stories... then you might be studying the wrong language... America might listen to your complaints, but the Japanese aren't really going to care.

yudantaiteki Wrote:Agreed. I also have to shake my head at someone who thinks wanting to remove an offensive and racist story from the site is "even worse" than someone who would submit such a story.

I can think of something even worse than all of the above: wanting to remove something, and not even bothering to at least try to come up with a reason for why it should be removed; wanting to remove it just because it hurts your feelings.

Luckily, your opinions don't matter. This is the Internet. Unless you're in Communist China, you don't get to remove the parts you don't like.

yudantaiteki Wrote:It makes the site look childish and unmaintained.

If there are other racist stories they should be removed as well. If someone can't learn the kanji without racist stories, they shouldn't be learning a foreign language in the first place.

If someone can't use a website without getting upset by offensive views, they shouldn't be using the Internet in the first place. They shouldn't even leave their homes, in fact. Stay at home, close your shades, cover your ears and pretend you're in a perfect world without racism, bigotry, or any other form of stupidity. That should solve all your problems.

But leave those of us perfectly comfortable living in the real world out of it. Unlike you, if someone is racist, I'd rather know about it than have them forced to pretend they're not. I find that piece of knowledge beneficial, and I find all forms of censorship an obstacle in the way of learning about who to trust and who to avoid.

IceCream Wrote:p.s. yeah. and racism is totally hilarious too.

Fun fact about funny people: they make unfunny things funny. By the sound of it, you wouldn't know what that's like, or what purpose humor serves.

AlgoRhythmic Wrote:

IceCream Wrote:Well of course!! You should also mow down a few little kids in the street as long as it gets you where you're going faster. Scam people out of their money as long as you make a healthy profit. Or kill a few people to use as manure and make your garden grow really really nicely. Why not.

p.s. yeah. and racism is totally hilarious too.

Are you an idiot? Serious question. How am I hurting anybody or affecting anyones life by using racist stories in my head, which I of course am not stupid enough to take as facts? Please do elaborate on that, thank you. Comparing that to mowing down little kids in the street is so retarded I can't possibly take you seriously after this post.

And no, racism in real life isn't very hilarious, but using it as a joke in a story can be so yes. And if you don't agree, then you don't have to use that story, it's really not harder than that.

I'm not an idiot, but apparently you are. Obviously i was trying to say that the ends don't justify the means, and that racism clearly does hurt people and seriously affect their lives.

Besides which, we are a.) talking about whether such stories should be on a public site, and b.) i simply don't believe you, because i completely fail to see what could possibly be funny about such a story unless you think there's some truth to it. Clearly, perpetuating such stereotypes contributes to continued racism. I can't believe you would try to claim that it doesn't.

@Stansfield: the fact that it's not a perfect world has nothing to do with it. Violence exists too. Should we ignore that as "just how things are"? Tell people that they must not censor other people's acts of aggression; that they should be free to behave how they feel like? Or should we have laws against it, and try to make it socially unacceptable by standing up and saying that it's a totally unnacceptable manner of dealing with the world?

p.s. what's the deal with personally insulting me? i guess that's a pretty common resort for people whose arguments can't stand up to criticism for shit though, so i'll let you off.

IceCream Wrote:Logic.

IceCream, I've got a rocket all ready to go. It's packed full of cake, cute puppies and other fun things. These guys want to wallow in their insensitivity because it doesn't seem to concern them personally. However, we will leave them behind and find a new planet full of awesome.

P.S. Offensive jokes are pretty much only funny when they challenge stereotypes and preconceived ideas. A joke involving black people making trouble and attracting the police, and using a racial slur to boot, is not such a joke. Also, last time I checked, this is a private site, meaning the site owners can censor things if they deem them inappropriate.

I can't speak for anybody else (and I'm not black, but I do find racial slurs to be deeply offensive) but when I see slurs like that on a site that's ostensibly there for my own educational benefit, then I feel excluded, I feel like the people who run the site couldn't care less about people like me, and I feel like it's not worth giving them my business.

It's not that I'm a wilting flower. People swear at me in my job, I've had racial slurs and gendered slurs thrown at me. I get harassed on the street. I don't go around needing to be wrapped in bubble wrap.

But I do prefer to be reminded as little as possible that a whole lot of people see me as "less than" just because of who I am, and I think that any site that's open to the public has a choice to make: either you can permit any kind of grossness on the site until the only people who feel welcome are straight white men, or you can choose to try to make everyone feel welcome at the tiny, tiny cost of censoring gross viewpoints.

IceCream Wrote:I'm not an idiot, but apparently you are. Obviously i was trying to say that the ends don't justify the means, and that racism clearly does hurt people and seriously affect their lives.

Besides which, we are a.) talking about whether such stories should be on a public site, and b.) i simply don't believe you, because i completely fail to see what could possibly be funny about such a story unless you think there's some truth to it. Clearly, perpetuating such stereotypes contributes to continued racism. I can't believe you would try to claim that it doesn't.

No, private racist stories in my head doesn't affect anybody. If you believe that you are clearly an idiot. Please do elaborate on how stories in my head I don't even take as facts harm anyone.

And no, I am not talking about sharing stories, I am talking about using them for your personal learning. If you look at the post I was answering I was arguing against the person claiming that "if you need racist stories you shouldn't learn a language", all I said was that if these racist stories help you learn faster there is no reason not to use them as long as you don't take them as a fact. If the owners of this site feel that racist stories are not appropriate then by all means remove them, but don't tell me what to use or not to use.

And of course something can be funny even if you don't think it's true. For me it was mainly the unpredictability in this case. The last thing I was expecting when clicking on the magnet kanji link was to see the second highest rated story being about a band of niggers throwing rocks, this fact combined with that is was inappropriate was mainly what made it funny. And even if it is not funny, the fact that it is offensive can in itself make it stick better in your head.

quark Wrote:IceCream, I've got a rocket all ready to go. It's packed full of cake, cute puppies and other fun things. These guys want to wallow in their insensitivity because it doesn't seem to concern them personally. However, we will leave them behind and find a new planet full of awesome.

ahahah that sounds completely awesome!!! I'm in!!!

@AlgoRhythmic:

i think Yudan's point was that you should at least have enough respect for people who aren't from your country / ethnic group / etc. to not want to use racist stories if you want to learn languages. If you can't manage even that minimum level of respect, you really shouldn't even be learning languages. That doesn't have much to do with whether you take it as fact or not, it's just about respect for others.

Yes, shock value can be an important factor in remembering stuff, i completely get that. But i still don't think that makes it in any way justified.

If you really must use racist stories, then yes, please do it in your own head, where nobody else can see or hear them, and they cannot affect anyone else. And then make damn sure that they don't affect yourself and the way you perceive and approach others without you even noticing.

Just a friendly reminder to keep things as civil as possible without any type of personal attack. Things haven't escalated that far yet, but let's try to prevent that. If you have questions/concerns about a story, feel free to report it and it will be looked at.

Fillanzea Wrote:I can't speak for anybody else (and I'm not black, but I do find racial slurs to be deeply offensive) but when I see slurs like that on a site that's ostensibly there for my own educational benefit, then I feel excluded, I feel like the people who run the site couldn't care less about people like me, and I feel like it's not worth giving them my business.

It's not that I'm a wilting flower. People swear at me in my job, I've had racial slurs and gendered slurs thrown at me. I get harassed on the street. I don't go around needing to be wrapped in bubble wrap.

But I do prefer to be reminded as little as possible that a whole lot of people see me as "less than" just because of who I am, and I think that any site that's open to the public has a choice to make: either you can permit any kind of grossness on the site until the only people who feel welcome are straight white men, or you can choose to try to make everyone feel welcome at the tiny, tiny cost of censoring gross viewpoints.

Fillanzea, you're invited onto the rocket too. You're 100% right - gendered, homophobic, or racial slurs exclude people or make them feel like they're lesser human beings. It's an awful feeling, especially on an educational site.
There have been quite a few times on this site that I've seen sexist statements, and it's an unwelcoming feeling. I'd expect that people who are learning a new language and are interested in other cultures would be more sensitive, mature and intelligent than to make offensive statements against entire groups of people.
And I'm saying this as someone with a very dark, perverted sense of humour. There's not a lot that can shock me, but I do expect people to be respectful towards each other. Unfunny racist/sexist/homophobic jokes aren't respectful.

IceCream Wrote:i think Yudan's point was that you should at least have enough respect for people who aren't from your country / ethnic group / etc. to not want to use racist stories if you want to learn languages. If you can't manage even that minimum level of respect, you really shouldn't even be learning languages. That doesn't have much to do with whether you take it as fact or not, it's just about respect for others.

I think you are reading WAY too much into this. It is a memory aid, nothing more and nothing less. It has nothing to do with respect to other people, it's just a story designed to stick in the head, nothing else. I would even say it's pretty rude to question my "respect" for other people just because I want to use the most effective stories, it's not like I go around calling black people niggers in the streets just because this story happened to stick in my head.

I'm sorry but I can't help but to think his point is ridiculous, if no one gets affected in any way it can't be considered disrespectful really.

nohika Wrote:Just a friendly reminder to keep things as civil as possible without any type of personal attack. Things haven't escalated that far yet, but let's try to prevent that. If you have questions/concerns about a story, feel free to report it and it will be looked at.

In that case, I'd like to object to the allegedly racist story in question for kanji #1390, previously pointed out by Norman. I think it should be marked private, or removed.

I love all kinds of offensive stories and I find them most memorable and helpful in learning kanji. It would be really unfortunate if this site started to censor them. If some people can't handle it I guess that "ignore" function would be useful, so they won't see them anymore after clicking a button once.

Mushi Wrote:

nohika Wrote:Just a friendly reminder to keep things as civil as possible without any type of personal attack. Things haven't escalated that far yet, but let's try to prevent that. If you have questions/concerns about a story, feel free to report it and it will be looked at.

In that case, I'd like to object to the allegedly racist story in question for kanji #1390, previously pointed out by Norman. I think it should be marked private, or removed.

Why are you people so uptight about racist stories? No one forces you to look at it and frankly, besides the 5 minutes you spend(or spent) on that Kanji you'll probably never see that story again. Why impose your views on this subject when it doesn't affect you at all?

blankkor Wrote:

Mushi Wrote:

nohika Wrote:Just a friendly reminder to keep things as civil as possible without any type of personal attack. Things haven't escalated that far yet, but let's try to prevent that. If you have questions/concerns about a story, feel free to report it and it will be looked at.

In that case, I'd like to object to the allegedly racist story in question for kanji #1390, previously pointed out by Norman. I think it should be marked private, or removed.

Why are you people so uptight about racist stories? No one forces you to look at it and frankly, besides the 5 minutes you spend(or spent) on that Kanji you'll probably never see that story again. Why impose your views on this subject when it doesn't affect you at all?

It is for the same reason that you are currently objecting to a removal of a story that would not affect you for more than 5 minutes either.

You're raising your point because you want assurance that you're participating in an online community that allows efficient and unhampered crowdsourcing from diverse points of view. I'm raising my objection because I want assurance that I'm participating in an online community that does not condone hosting racist material.

You're correct in that whether it's removed or not, it doesn't personally affect me much. And for that reason, I'll still be here whichever way it goes. But my objection is sincere, as this particular story stands out as being beyond the pale. I don't recall seeing any other story I'd want removed from the shared list.

blankkor Wrote:Why are you people so uptight about racist stories? No one forces you to look at it and frankly, besides the 5 minutes you spend(or spent) on that Kanji you'll probably never see that story again. Why impose your views on this subject when it doesn't affect you at all?

Actually, people are forced to look at the stories. You don't know what's in a story until you've read it. So it's a choice of reading racist stories or not reading stories at all. Asking people to not use the site at all if they don't want to deal with having racist slurs thrown at them is, in my opinion, unreasonable.

Saying that it's only brief is similar to saying it's okay if people shout racial epithets out their car window, after all, a moment later they're gone, so, no harm done it only took a second ... I don't think that you'll find many people that would agree with -that-.

SomeCallMeChris Wrote:Actually, people are forced to look at the stories. You don't know what's in a story until you've read it. So it's a choice of reading racist stories or not reading stories at all. Asking people to not use the site at all if they don't want to deal with having racist slurs thrown at them is, in my opinion, unreasonable.

Saying that it's only brief is similar to saying it's okay if people shout racial epithets out their car window, after all, a moment later they're gone, so, no harm done it only took a second ... I don't think that you'll find many people that would agree with -that-.

So you compare a tasteless joke to a malicious outburst? This seems like causing a storm in a glass of water...