[Zgarbas]

Stansfield123 Wrote:Can you? What about someone who associates two random things that have very little logical connection to each other (language learning and being obsessed enough with spelling to become a human spell checker), and insists that you can use them interchangeably to draw conclusions about a person? Can you be skeptical about what they have to say?

Oooh, let's hate on the grammar nazis because grammar&spelling are useless and in no way show something about the user's language ability.

Its=It's can be a typo, sure. Or it can be a basic inability to tell the difference between its and it's, which is a pretty basic grammar thing. Or an inability to spell it. Or just an inability to tell one's own mistakes when proofreading his own article. So an honest mistake, a problem with grammar, a problem with spelling, or a problem with observation. You choose to say that it's an honest mistake, whereas I choose to interpret it at one of the latter 3(why is "it's" the only typo in the article?).
If it is a grammar issue, then it means that somehow in a lifetime of exposure this guy can't get basic grammar as long as it sounds the same (clearly an issue which Japanese would not have). If it is a spelling issue, then it's again, a problem in which being exposed to something for a lifetime cannot fix his basic mistake. If it is a proofreading issue, then you have to wonder how much effort is put into his articles(if there was no proper proofreading done), or how much observational skills this guy has (as it is easier for him to learn a language via exposure and observation than to notice an obvious mistake in a short article....which is unlikely).

Khatz doesn't have a typo issue, Khatz can barely express himself in written language. Maybe it's one of those "I write highly colloquially so that people think I'm a cool guy" things, but even so the lack of coherency in his writing is flabbergasting. I've seen 5th graders with more coherent essays. Not to mention non-spelling mistakes such as not coordinating verbs with their subjects, missing out important articles, atrocious use of ortography, etc. He rarely has any typos, so he clearly proofreads what he's writing there.

Again, if it were just some guys writing angry blogs about their mothers I would not care at all. But I can't take someone who does not master his own language seriously as a language expert. Even if it's Khatz's second language, that just makes it worse; if his prolonged exposure to English did not help him get past such a basic level, how can you expect it to work with other languages?

Where on AJATT does Khatz make that claim that he is any sort of expert in the field of language learning? I've read through most of his material and can remember rather clearly on multiple occasions him clearly stating where his ideas came from (with links) and to not listen to him as an expert. Khatz seems to go out of his way to credit the authors of the ideas and concepts he blogs about, and often makes a point that he is not an "expert" like they actually are, and for readers to do follow up reading.

To be honest, Zgarbas, it sounds a little bit like you are jealous. AJATT is a blog, and he is writing for his intended audience. That you seem to be painting a straw man out of his character based on this "expert" claim, seems a little like a lack of reading comprehension, or that you haven't gone through and read his articles.

[Zgarbas]

High-school ad hominems(jealous), really? When someone says "Don't do it the way the others do it, do it MY WAY" it sounds awfully much like he's claiming to be as an expert in the field.

Kind of wondering why a lot of the discussions about language learning techniques turn into discussions about Khatz.

On topic, the day I really got into learning Japanese I put away all my non Japanese music, and have been listening only to Japanese content since. It does not help a lot, but gives me a certain exposure to the language. I haven't talked a lot Japanese, because I'm sticking to finishing RTK first, but a Japanese friend of mine says that he was surprised how good my pronunciation is. I think a large part is due to listening to JRock whenever possible.

[s0apgun]

Zgarbas Wrote:High-school ad hominems(jealous), really? When someone says "Don't do it the way the others do it, do it MY WAY" it sounds awfully much like he's claiming to be as an expert in the field.

Lol. True that.

Was It's/its really the big deal? There's people in college in the US who don't know the difference, even among people who do know the difference, most don't care. Unless they were writing a formal paper which he obviously is not. Even then you still see that error in them from time to time.

I've always wondered what makes Khatzs writing so incoherent to people? Do they read the same things that I've read?

blackbrich Wrote:Was It's/its really the big deal? There's people in college in the US who don't know the difference, even among people who do know the difference, most don't care. Unless they were writing a formal paper which he obviously is not. Even then you still see that error in them from time to time.

I've always wondered what makes Khatzs writing so incoherent to people? Do they read the same things that I've read?

I've only read a couple things, but every other sentence it seems like he mentions my mom. It's really obnoxious. It seems like his one friend on youtube has rubbed off on him.

That seems more like immature jokes more so than incoherent. I understand the humor because I understand where it comes from. Maybe to the less initiated it seems stupid.

I personally found Khatz's blogs entertaining to read and quite enjoyed his tongue in cheek humour. I'd go as far as to say that if it wasn't for reading his blog, I wouldn't still be learning Japanese today, 4 years later. While I don't agree with many of his methods, anything that gets people into learning Japanese is a good thing in my eyes.

Zgarbas Wrote:Again, if it were just some guys writing angry blogs about their mothers I would not care at all. But I can't take someone who does not master his own language seriously as a language expert.

A language expert is called a linguist. AJATT and JLUp are not about Linguistics, they are about learning languages.

Like I explained in my previous post, the two subjects have almost nothing in common. One is about the structure and origin of languages and language systems, the other about the nature of human memory and learning. And yet, you're using them interchangeably. Yes, it would be odd if Khatz decided to write a blog analyzing the grammatical structure of the English language. But he didn't, he wrote one about an unrelated subject.

It's classic grammar nazi syndrome. I bet you attack people about their spelling all the time, whether their posts are about learning languages, politics, Physics, or anything else.

[Zgarbas]

...Do you have some sort of spelling-related trauma?
This is rather pointless, so I'll just leave you to your happy place.

(I mean, I could just call you a bigoted holier-than-thou persistent yokel since it's clear that we're just going personal about this. But I'm not. Because arguing with yokels never amounts to anything but my disappointment in people's ability to talk about discrepant ideas. )

Zgarbas Wrote:High-school ad hominems(jealous), really? When someone says "Don't do it the way the others do it, do it MY WAY" it sounds awfully much like he's claiming to be as an expert in the field.

That isn't really how an ad hom functions. I was commenting on your projected attitude in response to your post, which was, ironically, littered with irrelevant personal snipes towards Khatz. If it were an ad hom I would say that your argument is invalid BECAUSE of what appears to be a jealous or otherwise highly personal negative character description with claims which are unsupported. Call it what you want. "Jealously" was an easy observation of the attitude presented. *shrugs*

"Don't do it the way the others do it, do it MY WAY"- can you find a link to this quote? I can find a link to an entire blog post dedicated to telling me not to blinding listen to him. Once again, a lot of claims without support aside personal quips which honestly add no value to the conversation aside the fact that you clearly do not approve of his character.

http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...for-advice

This above article sounds like someone who does not claim to be the character you have portrayed.

It wasn't really a big deal. I don't know why you take Khatz so personally. Considering the guys talks about Antimoon, Krashen, Tiger Woods, etc., etc., and everyone else aside himself as a reference for motivational and methodological pathways, it's not really like he is saying "my way" at all. When someone usually claims something as their own, they don't go and explicitly state where the ideas came from and provide links to those authors, etc. for others to research where he came up with his opinions. It sounds a lot more like: "This is a method based on the research and results of persons X, Y, Z. I've had some bloody good results with this method (outlines method), and since I think it's pretty cool, I'm going to tell you all about it."

[Zgarbas]

Ad hom functions when instead of listening to what the other person says you start attacking his character. When one even bothers explaining it, and yet the best comeback is "you're a grammar nazi who probably disregards everything using spelling" is an ad hominem. Combined with my reading on other recent stanfield posts, it is clearly a waste of time to discuss it. It is easy to ignore a discussion and revert to "you're just jealous", "you're probably a horrible no-lifer" or "your mother is made of elderberries" but it is just such a waste of everyone's time.

I have no intention of wasting my time reading any more of Khatzu's articles, which would reap absolutely no benefit, and yes, since I give everything a shot, I have read some of it, at least enough to form that opinion. Please do not confuse my disregard of khatzu with a personal grudge; he is in no way a person who would deserve any of my personal emotions. I am just stating that when talking about a method promoted by a certain person, and bringing forth extracts from that certain person, disregarding it due to that person's lack of ability in a related field to their "specialty" is also a reasonable option. I have also bothered explaining my opinion and yet that was ignored in favor of exaggerations and ignoring facts for ridiculous simplification.

I frankly do not care about what someone who is not listening to what I say and amplifies it to ad hominem level says. Poor debate skills, however, make me nauseous. And that's the end of that ^^.

And that's your friendly explanation about why I would ignore being a mod for one post and call someone a yokel.

^But you are the one refusing to read the article he posted, which completely disprove the "do it my way" attitude that you claim he has.

Zgarbas Wrote:Ad hom functions when instead of listening to what the other person says you start attacking his character.

No, that's not what the ad hominem fallacy is.

like his ideas or dont but the critique of katz' othography is absurd bordering on strange. perhaps that strangeness is the genesis of our jealousy discussion here... (which for the record I think is also untrue)

this one blogger simply prefers a colloquial style. however he has conglomerated several ideas into a method that has worked very well for many (however not all) people and has in doing so amassed tremendous influence. his writings are read by a huge number of people and you need to be kinda smart do that...

implying that he couldn't write bedford-handbook correct english is crazy-sounding.

listen zgarbas your english is probably better than mine which is an amazing accomplishment for someone in a second language. you have a good 6,000 words more than I if that vocab test is a reasonable measure... however perhaps the charm of colloquial english is something attained in a native upbringing in the english language. It's an aesthetic distinction rather than an academic one... one he prefers writing in and I, as one graduate degree-holding native english speaker, find very readable.

dtcamero Wrote:listen zgarbas your english is probably better than mine which is an amazing accomplishment for someone in a second language. you have a good 6,000 words more than I if that vocab test is a reasonable measure... however perhaps the charm of colloquial english is something attained in a native upbringing in the english language. It's an aesthetic distinction rather than an academic one... one he prefers writing in and I, as one graduate degree-holding native english speaker, find very readable.

As a second-language learner of English I can assure you that your native upbringing does not, in fact, bestow upon you the unique power of understanding the charm of colloquial speech. I for one find Khatz to be quite entertaining.

dtcamero Wrote:however he has conglomerated several ideas into a method that has worked very well for many (however not all) people and has in doing so amassed tremendous influence.

Actually, we have no idea how well those methods have worked. They work well compared to NOT studying Japanese, but there's no reason to believe they work better than other methods. If his only contribution has been to inspire people to study that doesn't mean he provided a method that works well, it simply means he has managed to motivate people.

He seems unable to assess the effectiveness of his advice, which is the reason why I would not recommend him. A lot of people ask me for advice on learning Japanese, since I meet a lot of foreigners who come to Japan with no Japanese, and I give them my own advice . I've also done it in an official capacity, since I was asked a couple of times to give a speech to the new JETs on how to learn Japanese.

Khatz's sarcastic writing is one of the first things that attracted me to his site (which stopped me from giving up as a beginner). I will admit I don't bother checking in on his site much these days... But to say that "he can barely express himself in written language"... Are we supposed to take that comment seriously?

Perhaps you (mis)understand "written language" to mean academic style, or something...

Or perhaps you simply meant to say that you don't "like" the way he writes. Plenty of other people have said as much here before. I don't think anyone would have an issue with that.

And Zlarp, I agree with you, in fact, it also goes the other way... There are also native speakers who don't get certain kinds of humour or modes of expression in their first-language either.

Has anyone tried to recording a sentence (maybe a new grammar pattern?) then playing it over and over using your phone? How did that work for you?

@Zgarbas

The prose on AJATT is not to your taste. That's fine. People should not attack you for not liking it. De gustibus non disputandum est.

But it seems to me like you are conflating being a skilled writer with being fluent in a language. Khatzamoto's writing is not professional. It is about becoming fluent, not professional (or professorial). It is is playful and creative. It is filled with odd colloquialisms and lame humor. It is meant to be fun, and only taken semi-seriously (all this is IMHO). He has a lot of good ideas (and probably some bad ones too). Many people (including myself) find what he has to say worthwhile. It is fine if you do not. Unlike some others here, I assume that you have no issue with others finding value in what he has to say. You were just expressing your opinion, correct?

btw: Most native speakers of any language are not polished writers. Is that not true in Romania?

CJ

As a thread on learning methods on forum.koohii.com grows longer, the probability of a dispute arising around Khatzumoto or AJATT approaches 1.

[Zgarbas]

And there's always the chance of bringing it back from the dead .

cjon256: They'd better be if they want to be taken seriously. Luckily, there are jobs which don't involve writing.

Sorry, I thought I saw the thread as new. I guess it was just one post. Did not mean to engage in necromancy! ;-)

Zgarbas: Taken seriously where? In the business world (or academia)? i.e. among the elite? I'm not sure what percentage of jobs require really good writing skills, but I would guess it is a fairly small percentage overall. You might be able to convince me that most good-paying jobs require a fair level of literacy. I doubt it goes beyond that. But I suggest we leave it there (unless either of us digs up some actual data to support our intuitions) :-).

CJ

Hyperborea Wrote:the probability of an AKATT sycophant claiming that the method (any method, it doesn't matter) was invented by Khatz approaches 1.

Did that post get deleted? I don't see it.