At one time a couple years ago, I had taken up the study of Japanese because of my interest in Japanese culture (and anime/manga, etc. Not uncommon reasons...) I stopped because inertia got the best of me and my nature of not completing what I start.

So I've been at it again for a little while now, and I've been thinking...


Where is Japan going? Is the window for experiencing Japan as we know it slowly closing? Is Japan getting bigger and better, or is getting left behind?

Dwindling youth population, an economic crisis that has apparently been affecting them for a while, who knows what else...


Basically, I don't know if I have an irrational fear that if I invest so much time and energy into learning this language (which would still be fun anyway) only to not be able to experience the full-breadth of Japanese culture.

But this could all be an excuse to duck out of studying...

Japan definitely has their problems and things will be getting a lot worse probably. But its not going to happen overnight. You still have some decades to enjoy it
And hey, maybe it wont be some doomsday scenario after all. Maybe things will just sort of work out somehow.

I'll be interested in Japan through thick and thin. In good times and bad times.

A good start would be for them to stop giving attention to idol groups. That alone makes me want to stop learning Japanese.

TheVinster Wrote:A good start would be for them to stop giving attention to idol groups. That alone makes me want to stop learning Japanese.

Seriously, the Japan we know is surely going to see a rather severe economic crisis at some point, the election of the Abe government will make that moment come sooner rather than later, and demographics are at the root of the crisis. If you happen to be thinking that Japanese will have any professional payoff whatsoever if you don't live in Japan, I'm sorry, it won't. But that's not a good reason to learn a language anyway. My guess is that it's equally likely that China will have a major crisis and turns into some sort of quasi-fascist state challenging the rest of the world militarily. That deflate the aspirations and enjoyment of the many more people learning Chinese.

But it seems you're mainly interested in Japanese culture, and that won't go away. In fact times of upheaval tend to stimulate more cultural creativity than long times of stagnation.

This thread is going to end well!

Tsuchinoko Wrote:Dwindling youth population, an economic crisis that has apparently been affecting them for a while, who knows what else...

So far, those factors listed aren't unique to Japan, they apply to all first world countries. America, the biggest English speaking country, caused the financial crisis yet people everywhere are still learning English...

Tsuchinoko Wrote:but this could all be an excuse to duck out of studying...

Maybe. Another reason could be because you regret missing the learning Chinese train. If it makes you feel any better, you'll be long dead before there are good Chinese anime and manga.

chamcham Wrote:I'll be interested in Japan through thick and thin. In good times and bad times.

Food for thought: Japanese bad times like WW2 is why masterpieces like Barefoot Gen and other films like that exist. I also believe movie makers are using the recent tsunami as inspiration.

If people like OP cares about Japanese culture, then they should be wishing for Japan to suffer hardships so that artists have more material. Of course, people will die though.

TheVinster Wrote:A good start would be for them to stop giving attention to idol groups. That alone makes me want to stop learning Japanese.

The thread is about the perceived diminishing of Japanese culture so how would that be a good start? Idols are definitely a unique part of Japanese culture and if they give it up, THEN the OP's prophecy will be fulfilled.

What do you guys think about the language in general? Do you think that is going away?

egoplant Wrote:What do you guys think about the language in general? Do you think that is going away?

Hypothetically speaking, how would the Japanese language go away in the first place?

Chinese occupation and immigration of Chinese into Japan, Tibet style?

Westerners forcing Japan to use Romaji only, no Kanji?

Extinction due to low birth rate?

They all sound far fetched to me.

egoplant Wrote:What do you guys think about the language in general? Do you think that is going away?

Until they can figure out how to teach their students to be fluent in English, there's not a chance.

egoplant Wrote:What do you guys think about the language in general? Do you think that is going away?

No way. Languages with a state don't go away. Even Maltese survives (420,000 people), most people there are bilingual with English, and all business is conducted in English.

Of course, there's this slightly bold METI extrapolation that the last Japanese will die in approximately the year 3500. Not sure if that's your time horizon, but it's certainly not mine.

[Zgarbas]

In a way, but not really.
Just take the practice of Shinto as an example. A large population says it doesn't practice it (theoretically there's only 4 million practicioners or so), yet a remarkably large proportion(70%+ I think? Maybe more) practices it (having religious items, going to temples, etc) for cultural reasons. In theory people are abandoning Japanese culture, but in practice there's a gargantuan amount of cultural practices which are carried on by most of the populace.
If anything, people are starting to maintain the culture less out of force and more out of personal choice/general respect for it. I don't think that's a bad thing.

Well with the internet, every individual culture is slowly fading and turning into one global one. I assume the same thing will happen with language, people will start speaking less Japanese in favor of English. It seems like every non-English speaking country teaches English as a second language, and it's the most used language on the internet by quite a bit. Chinese is the only thing that comes close, but nobody outside of China really learns it like they do with English.

Tsuchinoko Wrote:I had taken up the study of Japanese because of my interest in Japanese culture...

Even if Japan would vanish completely tomorrow, there still so much material to watch, listen and read that will take you whole lifetime to get through. For example if you look at history of cinematography Japan is among 3 most important film producers in the world (other being USA and France). For example look at Kinema Junpo's list of greatest Japanese films: http://www.criticker.com/?fl&filter=e10613 How many of them have you seen? If you're not a serious cinephile, my bet is no more than 10-15%. But there are still hundreds of other great films not on the list. I'm not that knowledgable about literature/music/other aspects of Japanese culture, but I'm sure that whatever you like you'll find a lot of things to discover. Just don't limit yourself only to recent media.

Anime and manga or the Japanese population aren't going away any time soon.

Stop worrying.

Nope, don't see it happening. Remember, Japan has managed to hit rock bottom, and then bounce back multiple times.

Japanese cultural isn't disappearing; don't be silly.

Japan has been a big importer of foreign ideas at various times in the past (look how much of the langauge and culture comes from China), despite a period where it was largely closed off. And, really, since the ideas of nationalism and more defined national borders have become wisedpread in the last 150 years, no country or culture has lost itself to outside cultural influences.

Rather, culture disappears quickly only for political reasons where it is forced to disappear by policy. If you visit Tibet (which I have), or read about it, it's clear that this is an example. Limiting the number of monks allowed at monasteries and other policies, for example, severely restricts and is gradually destroying traditional religious culture in Tibet. Nevertheless, culture is resilient; Tibet remains obviously culturally separate from mainland China--using it's own language, having it's own cuisine, etc.--despite the fact that the Chinese government is actively trying to destroy certain parts of the culture.

So, unless Japan is taken over by a foreign power, it's unlikely that the culture will disappear anytime soon. And if Japan is occupied by China or something, your language ability would become much more interesting (rather than less) because it would help you understand the political situation much better than almost all Westerners, thanks to the limited number of people fluent in Japanese. And you could become involved in the politics of it even from abroad if you chose to.

Japanese culture might not line up with what you want it to be because of modern changes. But don't be so full of yourself. Japanese culture is what she is, and when we look for her she'll be waiting. We don't get to decide her personality.

Just a thought.

So basically everyone is saying Japan is going down because of their economy, or their aging population, or because of invasion by China, or their low reproduction rates, or lack of foreign immigration etc...

On the other end of the scale, everyone is saying that China will go up, because of the booming 10% annual GDP growth economy, or their population, overtake the weakening USA etc...

I assume that most not all, but most people learn Japanese because of Japanese media entertainment like anime, manga, video games, movies, books, music, etc...

Certainly, I doubt most of us are learning Kazhakstanese or whatever because of the lack of said entertainment.

If Japan goes down, there will be less of those entertainment. Yet, why does Chinese entertainment get completely eclipsed by Japanese entertainment when the Japanese country and population is so much smaller and has always been smaller? With a small country like Japan, you would expect them to be insignificant and ignored on the world stage. Even smaller Hong Kong makes more and better movies than their bigger cousion or brother.

For things like porn, the lack of Chinese porn is easily explained: it is banned. But where is the Chinese media entertainment behemoth? Things like Journey to the West don't count though, it's way overdone and shit. Sorry.

meh. i think some people misunderstand culture as entertainment. i wouldnt wish any country to thrive on such distractions. japan has more to offer than that. as for the aging population, i think its all for the best, in the long run.

egoplant Wrote:Well with the internet, every individual culture is slowly fading and turning into one global one. I assume the same thing will happen with language, people will start speaking less Japanese in favor of English. It seems like every non-English speaking country teaches English as a second language, and it's the most used language on the internet by quite a bit. Chinese is the only thing that comes close, but nobody outside of China really learns it like they do with English.

http://www.wired.com/beyond_the_beyond/2...tion-bias/

mrbryce Wrote:meh. i think some people misunderstand culture as entertainment. i wouldnt wish any country to thrive on such distractions. japan has more to offer than that. as for the aging population, i think its all for the best,in the long run.

Apart from entertainment, what else does Japan offer in terms of culture and why should we care about those non-entertainment culture?

qwertyytrewq Wrote:

mrbryce Wrote:meh. i think some people misunderstand culture as entertainment. i wouldnt wish any country to thrive on such distractions. japan has more to offer than that. as for the aging population, i think its all for the best,in the long run.

Apart from entertainment, what else does Japan offer in terms of culture and why should we care about those non-entertainment culture?

Architecture, cuisine, gardens/ikebana/onsen, clothing, calligraphy/painting, samurai/geisha...

Now please tell me that your question is a joke. Please explain why we shouldn't care about these things...>_>

qwertyytrewq Wrote:Apart from entertainment, what else does Japan offer in terms of culture and why should we care about those non-entertainment culture?

The part of culture that connects with you is a preference dude, haha.

I find the Japanese entertainment industry to be somewhere between dull and outright annoying, with a few rare gems. I think it had a good video game industry until about 2004 though.

So, thank God the entertainment industry's not all there is to Japanese culture.

qwertyytrewq Wrote:Apart from entertainment, what else does Japan offer in terms of culture and why should we care about those non-entertainment culture?

I've always thought of 'culture' as 'the psyche of a society.' Sure there are "things" which people point at and go "That's Japanese!" (see Betelgeuzah's post) but not many Japanese are going to give a shit about architecture or ikebana. Likewise, I really doubt many foreigners are sticking around in Japan for years because they "like Japanese food and caligraphy." Unless their job happens to be attached to those things; its more likely they are sticking around in Japan (on their own will) because they like the social aspects of the country. Things like the way people interact with each other, way organizations/businesses/group/etc. interact with people. These are the things that if you don't like them, are what will drive you back home in a short amount of time because it'll be causing constant culture shock. And because of that, I think these things are what really constitute "Japan's culture."

Betelgeuzah Wrote:Architecture, cuisine, gardens/ikebana/onsen, clothing, calligraphy/painting, samurai/geisha...

Now please tell me that your question is a joke. Please explain why we shouldn't care about these things...>_>

They're more things a hobbyist would be interested in, and unlikely to allow you to connect with a typical native.

The horror show at this year's 成人式 is what I'd call dying culture - if it wasn't just a minority, of course.

Incoming rant. Just to understand where I'm coming from, after reading the post I replied to:

mrbryce Wrote:meh. i think some people misunderstand culture as entertainment. i wouldnt wish any country to thrive on such distractions. japan has more to offer than that.

I was reminded of this thread: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...#pid160194

In other words, it smacks of Japanese language learner or Japan-fan elitism (not saying mrbryce is one or not but you know they exist): "You're learning Japanese for things like anime? Those are just distractions. Japan has more to offer than just anime and manga and video games. Like uh... botanical specimen shuffling. And little bush cutting! And fancy brush writing!"

I'm sorry but I, and I suspect most people learning Japanese, don't give a shit about ikebana, bonsai and calligraphy. I don't even give a shit about them in my original language/country. I don't give a shit about samurais, except the fictional Rurouni Kenshin (Japanese entertainment). Similarly, I don't give a shit about their Western counter-parts: knights. But I do like King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table (Western entertainment). Anime forums have 1 million members. Flower arranging has like 2?

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the "higher" and more "sophisticated" forms of Japanese culture like Earthquake-proof architecture. I'm sure it's interesting to architects. What I am against is calling entertainment "distractions" because they're not distractions, they are entertainment and they are interesting and enjoyable which is why they are called entertainment. Unless you're a Buddhist who believes in avoiding both good and bad stimulants, but that's another story.

Anyway, if we're going to call anything "distractions", then by far, the best candidate would be "full time jobs."

Because my (and everyone else's) full time job that I hate is distracting me from watching my 200 episode anime series which I like. But that's also another story.

To finish off, I'd like to direct you to a post I made last year: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...#pid160194

The idea seems silly but I think it's valid. (made a mistake in that post: swap "good" and "bad" so non-shallow/disheartening = good)