qwertyytrewq Wrote:Apart from entertainment, what else does Japan offer in terms of culture and why should we care about those non-entertainment culture?

Good question.

Here's a another good reason:
Japan specifically isn't very English friendly, so for someone who enjoys a hobby that Japan has a lot to offer in (robots, electronics, game development, sight seeing/tourism, drifting, autos, research journals, food, etc...), learning the language can be a great investment in that hobby. Take a look at this page and at the first comment there.

Finally, I honestly don't give that much of a shit about Anime and Manga, they are cool, but other Japanese culture products easily overshadow them for me, mostly by the Japanese society, because my biggest interest is humans and their societies and interaction, and you can imagine what a unique society the Japanese one is and what learning the language can do for me.

Edit2: Why would someone who enjoys Anime and Manga that much learn Japanese? Don't most of them get translated?

I just typed a reply a minute ago but then I lost it.

I don't feel like typing it again!

So let's just go back on topic: Is Japanese culture dying and if so, how will it die?

qwertyytrewq Wrote:In other words, it smacks of Japanese language learner or Japan-fan elitism (not saying mrbryce is one or not but you know they exist)

If you're not sure whether mrbryce is one, why the sudden rant? Why project what you have heard before onto him in a snotty way when he was vague enough that you're not even sure if you've correctly pinpointed his position?

qwertyytrewq Wrote:In other words, it smacks of Japanese language learner or Japan-fan elitism (not saying mrbryce is one or not but you know they exist): "You're learning Japanese for things like anime? Those are just distractions. Japan has more to offer than just anime and manga and video games. Like uh... botanical specimen shuffling. And little bush cutting! And fancy brush writing!"

How do you know it's Japanese-fan elitism? I think people who watch American media all day are usually extremely boring. I think the same about people who watch Japanese media all day. I like people who go out and do things, learn about the world, try to create their own art, etc., and therefore don't have time to watch a 200 episode anime (of course, that can be part of language learning which is a noble pursuit).

In other words, for me it's plain old elitism--it's not Japanese-fan elitism.

undead_saif Wrote:Edit2: Why would someone who enjoys Anime and Manga that much learn Japanese? Don't most of them get translated?

Not everything, plus a lot of translations are of poor quality and often English doesn't carry the original spirit of the work regardless of the quality of the translation. Further, knowledge of the language brings better appreciation of the culture/native mindset and consequently of its media.

I guess there's the elitism aspect too.

Javizy Wrote:The horror show at this year's 成人式 is what I'd call dying culture - if it wasn't just a minority, of course.

People have been complaining kind of thing for hundreds of years

Language is a rather efficient source of propagating "culture". As long as people are communicating in Japanese, then whatever culture shaped and continues to shape the language cannot "die". Sure, it may take on a different form, and adapt into something slightly different, but that is what culture "does". Memeplexes such as languages tend to only really fail in the course of drastic events, such as the people attached to the language being killed off by another civilization, etc.

The virtual culture of Japan alone is something which has successfully managed to slowly sow little parts of itself within the minds of thousands of English speaking foreigners whom go about propagating Japanese terms, concepts, icons and imagery, without even being fully cognizant of their original contexts or correct usage.

Betelgeuzah Wrote:

qwertyytrewq Wrote:

mrbryce Wrote:meh. i think some people misunderstand culture as entertainment. i wouldnt wish any country to thrive on such distractions. japan has more to offer than that. as for the aging population, i think its all for the best,in the long run.

Apart from entertainment, what else does Japan offer in terms of culture and why should we care about those non-entertainment culture?

Architecture, cuisine, gardens/ikebana/onsen, clothing, calligraphy/painting, samurai/geisha...

Now please tell me that your question is a joke. Please explain why we shouldn't care about these things...>_>

Because they're boring, and because even most Japanese people could care less about that stuff.

Now let me ask you, do you care about traditional culture in your own country? Do you really? You probably don't care right. Exactly.


And you know? Most Japanese learners don't really know much about Japan. You ask them to name 10 random Japanese movies/magazines/novels/manga/singers/actors/comedians chances are they won't be able to do it. Because they don't know anything other than " I like Japan because of their food" .

undead_saif Wrote:Edit2: Why would someone who enjoys Anime and Manga that much learn Japanese? Don't most of them get translated?

Most of them don't get translated. That's a misconception. The stuff that gets translated amounts to what...not even 10% of all the manga that's out there.

qwertyytrewq Wrote:

mrbryce Wrote:meh. i think some people misunderstand culture as entertainment. i wouldnt wish any country to thrive on such distractions. japan has more to offer than that. as for the aging population, i think its all for the best,in the long run.

Apart from entertainment, what else does Japan offer in terms of culture and why should we care about those non-entertainment culture?

Culture consists of language, customs, philosophy, art, science, education and the history of all of the above. For starters. I'm sure I'm leaving a bunch of things out.

And the reason why we should care about many aspects of that culture is that, as evidenced by the many achievements of the Japanese compared to other cultures, their culture is better than other cultures.

That's right, I went there: some cultures are, in specific ways, better than other cultures. In fact, those specific ways often add up to make some cultures better than other cultures overall, not just in specific ways.

It is our job, as thinkers and intellectuals, rather than just robots and passive consumers, to identify the ways in which some cultures are better than out own, and adopt those ways of thinking and doing things into our own lives, and, hopefully, in time, into out own culture. Or, if our own culture is so bad that it's not worth bothering with, it is our job to just abandon it and replace it with better culture.

Realism Wrote:Because they're boring, and because even most Japanese people could care less about that stuff.

Culture works in funny ways. The people who care the least about it are the least likely to consciously identify what is good and what is bad about the culture that surrounds them, and therefor the most likely to adopt their culture wholesale.

If you want the most concrete, expressive materialization of any culture, find the dumbest, least educated and interested individual within that culture, and study him carefully.

Unlike his more curious compatriots, he is the one who will have indiscriminately absorbed every aspect of his culture, good and bad. He is the one who's own mind and biases are least likely to mislead you into thinking his culture is better (or worse) than it actually is.

Realism Wrote:

Betelgeuzah Wrote:Architecture, cuisine, gardens/ikebana/onsen, clothing, calligraphy/painting, samurai/geisha...

Because they're boring, and because even most Japanese people could care less about that stuff.

Bad news buddy, cuisine and clothing are on that list, and Japanese people are f#$@ing obsessed with food and fashion. Obsession with food is ubiquitous in Japan. Like 30% of Japanese TV is people eating things and reacting.

You'd also be surprised how popular traditional culture is in certain places. I live in Kyoto so it's quite popular here.

Stansfield123 Wrote:If you want the most concrete, expressive materialization of any culture, find the dumbest, least educated and interested individual within that culture, and study him carefully.

Hmmm. There's one person I sometimes spend time with who seems to fit the bill, having been born microcephalic, and seemingly disengaged enough, that at age 30 he hasn't yet learned to recognize me or even feed himself. But I've so far not picked up much culture from him.

qwertyytrewq Wrote:Japan has more to offer than just anime and manga and video games. Like uh... botanical specimen shuffling. And little bush cutting! And fancy brush writing!"

I'm sorry but I, and I suspect most people learning Japanese, don't give a shit about ikebana, bonsai and calligraphy. I don't even give a shit about them in my original language/country. I don't give a shit about samurais, except the fictional Rurouni Kenshin (Japanese entertainment). Similarly, I don't give a shit about their Western counter-parts: knights. But I do like King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table (Western entertainment). Anime forums have 1 million members. Flower arranging has like 2?

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the "higher" and more "sophisticated" forms of Japanese culture like Earthquake-proof architecture. I'm sure it's interesting to architects.

What you care about doesn't matter in the slightest. Nor does it matter how many people are obsessed enough about a certain subject regarding the Japanese culture to talk about it on a discussion forum in comparison to some other subject.

Millions of people travel to Japan every year. Many of them being fans of anime, manga, cosplaying and whatever - which doesn't exclude them having interest in what you can experience in Japan, things that make Japan..Japan. You walk along the streets in Kyoto and there's shinto temples and onsens and restaurants offering the best of Japanese cuisine. Everything oozes of Nippon and it is all that which makes the country worth visiting. The bonsais, the onsens, the stylish writing, the kimonos...

You really, really think that the Japanese architecture is only interesting to architects? That all Japan has going for as far as buildings and structures go is the fact they are earthquake-proof? lol.

Students of Japanese are fairly often introduced to aspects such as calligraphy during their studies, as long as they take classes for it (me included), and frankly I don't see what there is to not like about it. You don't have to have a great interest in the subject to enjoy it when given the opportunity. You don't have to study bonsai to enjoy looking at one.

To me, what you say is what reeks of Japan-elitism. "Botanical specimen shuffling and little bush cutting and fancy brush writing" are not important or worth caring about because people don't take great interest in becoming good at these things? Good thinking, bro.

Quote:Because they're boring, and because even most Japanese people could care less about that stuff.

Now let me ask you, do you care about traditional culture in your own country? Do you really? You probably don't care right. Exactly.

I enjoy my country's traditional culture and having it around. I think that my country would lose much of it's character were it to be removed. I don't particularly care about taking part in preserving it. Were I go to a different country with a vastly different cultural background, I would most likely enjoy experiencing as much of it as possible.

I would imagine Japanese think the same way about their culture.

Betelgeuzah Wrote:You really, really think that the Japanese architecture is only interesting to architects?

Mainly. Not only. I can't remember the last time a hentai fan voicing his opinion on Japanese architecture. Which is reasonable, because local architecture is barely interesting to locals, let alone foreigners.

If Japanese architecture was popular, there'd be big forums about it.

Betelgeuzah Wrote:To me, what you say is what reeks of Japan-elitism.

Actually, what I am saying is not Japanese elitism. The opposite of elitism is plebeianism which is what this is. Or if you prefer, anti-elitism-elitism.

Japanese elitism is far more common and far more one-sided. You see it in this forum and elsewhere: "You're learning Japanese for anime? You immature manchild. You wannabe Japanese. Go marry Japan if you love her so much"

The tragedy is that this elitism comes from both Japanese elitists (those who engage in sophisticated Japanese high culture like bonsai and tea ceremonies while looking down on what they perceive to be invalid Japanese culture, like anime) and plebians (lower class people who hate Japan in general anyway). At least the plebians have the decency not to make fun of ikebana.

As far as I see, anime fans and people who indulge in "low" Japanese culture are the innocents in all of this. Anime fans are just minding their own business, enjoying anime and having fun dressing up in cosplay at anime conventions. You don't see anime fans saying "You're learning Japanese for Japanese architecture? Weeeeeelllll lookie what we have here, an ivory tower Japanese language intellectual who thinks he is better than us peasants! Please forgive my transgression and accept my okurimono as an apology, Architecture-ka-sama!"

Betelgeuzah Wrote:"Botanical specimen shuffling and little bush cutting and fancy brush writing" are not important or worth caring about because people don't take great interest in becoming good at these things? Good thinking, bro.

As I hopefully expressed clearly in the above, it is the botanical specimen shufflers and little bush cutters and fancy writing brushers who deem other things (like anime) not important or worth caring about.

I would like to call a truce between "low Japanese culture" fans and "high Japanese culture" fans in order to unite against a common enemy: Japan in general-haters and those who want Japanese culture to die. Is that fair?

Anyway, for you readers who prefer to discuss the topic and not my views...

Someone raised this issue in another thread but it would probably be more suitable in this thread about Japanese culture, but what about Japan's rape culture?

According to some feminist scholars, Japan's rape culture is the reason we can enjoy reading hentai manga and anime where fictional depictions of females are sexually abused in all sorts of ways for our entertainment. Hentai like that is hugely popular around the world, just ask the members of the popular forum HongFire.com

As Japan continually imports Western culture and opens itself to worldwide criticism, is Japanese rape culture dying? If not, should we have a hand in making it die? What will this mean for rape comics and is the abolition of rape comics a necessary cost? Or do you believe that Japanese rape culture can be killed while leaving the hentai rape culture vibrant and prosperous?

Quote:I can't remember the last time a hentai fan voicing his opinion on Japanese architecture.

If Japanese architecture was popular, there'd be big forums about it.

Your world really revolves around forums and porn now does it? There is more to the universe than those two things.

People go to Japan. There they see the torii gates, shinto temples, gardens and bonsai trees. They see the Fujisan and they may come across traditional art depicting the mountain and what it symbolizes. There's stylish writing everywhere. They may take a lesson of calligraphy taught by a Japanese (what an experience that can be). They eat sushi and sukiyaki in a restaurant with tatami mats and shõji doors.

People go to Japan to experience all these things. Then they'll go back home and tell everyone about what they experienced in the exotic far East, also on the forums. What they don't do is take up calligraphy or bonsai growing, buy the necessary tools and take lessons from a sensei for 10 years while talking with other bonsai-fans on an internet discussion forum. Because they can enjoy something without obsessing about it and letting it shape their lives.

So, once again, I ask you: You really, really think that the Japanese architecture is only interesting to architects? Now with new information; being interested about Japanese architecture doesn't mean "start studying architecture" or "talk about it on a discussion forum about Japanese architecture" or "build a Japanese house".

As far as I see, you're bitter because people don't take your hobby seriously and now you are projecting your feelings unto others.

What you don't realize is that the vast majority of people don't hate Japan. People can "hate" specific things, some of them from Japan and some of them from their own country. It doesn't have to have anything to do with anything other than the specific thing in question.

And frankly, if you ask the majority outside the otaku bubble they will think of someone in his 20's or above watching anime (especially the creepy kind) as a manchild. I don't see anyone hating them for it though. What's there to hate about someone you consider a manchild? I can think up several other emotions that could work though.

Betelgeuzah Wrote:Your world really revolves around forums and porn now does it? There is more to the universe than those two things.

That's true, but despite or in spite of humankind's advances, man is still ultimately beholden to his basic primal wants. This includes social interaction and sex (sometimes at the same time). Sure, there's more to the universe than those, but they're more or less optional. Which is why HongFire forums has 1 million Hentai porn fans, and why Bonsai forums are mostly inactive.

Anyway, you don't need to explain to me what constitutes Japanese culture, what interesting things there are about it, and why people may like those things. I have no issues with that.

Obviously, my previous post wasn't clear enough or you weren't reading it thoroughly. For example:

Betelgeuzah Wrote:So, once again, I ask you: You really, really think that the Japanese architecture is only interesting to architects?

No, I don't think that because I will, once again, reply to what question by using a quote from my previous post:

qwertyytrewq Wrote:

Betelgeuzah Wrote:You really, really think that the Japanese architecture is only interesting to architects?

Mainly. Not only. I can't remember the last time a hentai fan voicing his opinion on Japanese architecture. Which is reasonable, because local architecture is barely interesting to locals, let alone foreigners.

I'm not sure even sure why you're arguing this point. Video games lead to anime leads to manga leads to Jpop leads to J-Drama etc... These items have mainstream and non-mainstream appeal which is why they have big forums dedicated to it.

Japanese Architecture is a specialized topic that, and I repeat again, mainly appeals to people who already like architecture. I'm sure one anime fan out there is watching an anime and particularly notices a building and then exclaims "wow, that is a nice building, perhaps I should check out Japanese architecture!", but he is an exception.

Just to clarify, I am not claiming that liking anime is better or worse than liking Japanese architecture, nor that liking Japanese architecture is better or worse than liking anime.

This is all a red herring though. My main issue is the antagonistic consumers of high-Japanese-culture elitist against mainstream Japanese culture consumers.

Betelgeuzah Wrote:As far as I see, you're bitter because people don't take your hobby seriously and now you are projecting your feelings unto others.

In what way am I projecting my feelings?

Betelgeuzah Wrote:What you don't realize is that the vast majority of people don't hate Japan.

Sure. With the exception of Chinese people, but that's a completely different topic.

Betelgeuzah Wrote:And frankly, if you ask the majority outside the otaku bubble they will think of someone in his 20's or above watching anime (especially the creepy kind) as a manchild.

And this is completely unacceptable. Nobody is a manchild for listening to music. Nobody is a manchild for watching movies. Nobody is a manchild for watching TV shows. All of those are a form of media. Anime is a form of media. So why is watching anime a negative thing?

I mean, I can understand non-consumers of Japanese culture being negative against anime: because they are plebians who know no better. However, I expect better behavior from bonsai cutters, flower arrangers and Kanji brushers.

Betelgeuzah Wrote:I don't see anyone hating them for it though. What's there to hate about someone you consider a manchild? I can think up several other emotions that could work though.

I guess it depends on how you define hate, but in these examples of vocal hatred, these attack the people/person (cosplayers) and not the act (cosplaying). Furthermore, the hate is of a non-constructive type.

http://www.google.com/search?q=i+hate+cosplayers
http://www.google.com/search?q=i+hate+anime+fans
http://www.google.com/search?q=i+hate+japan

Remembering that the hatred is directed towards people who some live in their parent's basements and these people have done no-one harm. Hatred against bankers and dictators I can understand, but basement dwellers?

I would like to stress again, without distractions, the main point I would like to point out, which is: Why do certain Japanese language learners (who are often consumers of sophisticated Japanese culture like bonsai, ikebana, and Kanji calligraphy) speak ill of, discourage, and are negative against other Japanese learners based on the fact that the other Japanese learners are doing so because of anime and manga, which they deem "disappointing" or "childish" or "disheartening." The reverse does not exist (anime-fans speaking ill of bonsai-fans).

Here are a few examples of this "anti-your-reasons-for-learning-Japanese but pro-my-reasons-for-learning-Japanese" phenomena:

http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=1762
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=8906

Lastly, I would like to hear what Tsuchinoko (thread creator) has to say about anything about his own thread.

Quote:Anyway, you don't need to explain to me what constitutes Japanese culture, what interesting things there are about it, and why people may like those things. I have no issues with that.

What is this, then, dude?

Quote:Apart from entertainment, what else does Japan offer in terms of culture and why should we care about those non-entertainment culture?

I even asked if it's a joke.

Quote:Japanese Architecture is a specialized topic that, and I repeat again, mainly appeals to people who already like architecture.

Japanese architecture appeals to everyone who looks at a Japanese-themed architecture and finds it appealing. This is what I have been telling you, and this is what you don't seem to grasp. You don't need to talk about it, or think about it, or do something related to it to find something appealing. Discussion forums nor their existence aren't the sole life-force of any subject worth caring about.

Quote:And this is completely unacceptable. Nobody is a manchild for listening to music. Nobody is a manchild for watching movies. Nobody is a manchild for watching TV shows. All of those are a form of media. Anime is a form of media. So why is watching anime a negative thing?

You watch TV shows made for kids; you are a manchild.
You listen to songs made for kids; you are a manchild.
You watch TV shows made for manchildren; you are a manchild.

Granted, there is not always a strict definition as to what is a TV show for children. That's up to the people to decide. And when the majority of people think a TV program is made for manchildren, that's the reality. Perhaps not to the person in question who watches said program, but for everyone else out there. And neither party is 'wrong', because it has been and will always be subjective. Though, the person perceived as a manchild may have a much harder time outside his or hers own little reality because nobody else agrees with him.

It's rather easy to escape this kind of classifying though by having a normal life outside this interest. Basement dwellers have no chance however.

Quote:I would like to stress again, without distractions, the main point I would like to point out, which is: Why do certain Japanese language learners (who are often consumers of sophisticated Japanese culture like bonsai, ikebana, and Kanji calligraphy) speak ill of, discourage, and are negative against other Japanese learners based on the fact that the other Japanese learners are doing so because of anime and manga, which they deem "disappointing" or "childish" or "disheartening."

Because the majority agrees with them as far as the activity being "childish" is concerned, and they don't want to be seen in the same light by the people who know no better.

"You learn Japanese? You must be one of those weeaboos..."

It's not surprising why said people would want to avoid receiving such comments.

I don't want to continue the discussion here so I wrote a proper thread about it: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...#pid183149

Instead, I would rather remain on topic in this thread and talk about hypothetical ways in which Japanese culture will die: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...#pid182561

Or, Japanese rape culture and hentai manga and whether either will die: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...#pid183140

Betelgeuzah Wrote:You watch TV shows made for kids; you are a manchild.
You listen to songs made for kids; you are a manchild.
You watch TV shows made for manchildren; you are a manchild.

Granted, there is not always a strict definition as to what is a TV show for children. That's up to the people to decide. And when the majority of people think a TV program is made for manchildren, that's the reality.

Well, actually, that isn't even remotely accurate. The majority of people can think whatever they please, but that means diddly squat in respect to the reality of a situation. In respect to アニメと漫画 a lot of it is "made for children", but a lot of it is intended for older audiences. Irregardless of the intentions of the creators, adults can watch what they please and if they can gain something from a particular show then so be it. There are Studio Ghibli movies which are "made" for children, although adults are able to enjoy them all the same. Are these adults "manchildren"?

Honestly, the person labeling another as a "manchild" reveals more of his or her insecurities than the characteristics of the person he or she is trying to speak down upon.

To quote C.S. Lewis:

Quote:“Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”

uisukii Wrote:Well, actually, that isn't even remotely accurate. The majority of people can think whatever they please, but that means diddly squat in respect to the reality of a situation.

What they think is the reality of the situation. The whole concept of what is mature and what is childish only exists in people's mind. There is no objective reality on the subject.

Basically what they think is the reality held by the majority of people. Now what the makers intended a show or a comic to appeal to is of no concern. What matters is what everyone else thinks about it.

To say that what the majority think about something completely subjective is not relevant to the reality of it is quite a false claim to make. The reality is made by the people.

Quote:In respect to アニメと漫画 a lot of it is "made for children", but a lot of it is intended for older audiences. Irregardless of the intentions of the creators, adults can watch what they please and if they can gain something from a particular show then so be it. There are Studio Ghibli movies which are "made" for children, although adults are able to enjoy them all the same. Are these adults "manchildren"?

Do people consider these people "manchildren"? If not, then they are not. It's all about perspective, and as much some "adult" shows make people who watch them "manchildren" in people's mind, some "children's" shows can be enjoyed by all without judgment.

No one is wrong. No one is right. But what the general population thinks is what really matters.

vix86 Wrote:"... its more likely they are sticking around in Japan (on their own will) because they like the social aspects of the country. Things like the way people interact with each other, way organizations/businesses/group/etc. interact with people. These are the things that if you don't like them, are what will drive you back home in a short amount of time because it'll be causing constant culture shock. "

I occasionally think about out why I like living in Japan and usually think "it's just a feeling", but this is exactly why. Well said vix86.

Betelgeuzah Wrote:

uisukii Wrote:Well, actually, that isn't even remotely accurate. The majority of people can think whatever they please, but that means diddly squat in respect to the reality of a situation.

What they think is the reality of the situation. The whole concept of what is mature and what is childish only exists in people's mind. There is no objective reality on the subject.

Sounds like you are mistaking your opinion for fact. There are clear standards with objective merits in respect to maturity. There is a large amount of neuroscience in relation to individual behaviour and maturity in respect to brain development. There are standards which reflect the physical development of the brain in respect to maturity. There are certain concepts, including empathy, which take time for the brain to physically mature in order for the responding regions to allow for such latent awareness among other things, to develop.

Take the concept people refer to as "the Golden Rule". Many children struggle with this concept and this difficulty stems from the lack of neural maturity in the regions which promote this greater sense of awareness for others. During puberty the brain undergoes a massive change in its hormonal environment and this directly reflect on the behaviour, cognitive processes, ability for awareness, etc. of an individual. Social pressures and customs are simply no match for the actual physical change in brain state which directly impacts on behaviour among people. To state that these actions and paradigm shifts "only exists in people's mind." is, and this may sound offensive, but as arrogant and ignorant as in the current age, claiming human action has no significant impact on the planet as an excuse for not taking responsibility for the dispose of one's waste.

Sorry, you have no grounds to state that "The whole concept of what is mature and what is childish only exists in people's mind. There is no objective reality on the subject." This sort of moral relativism is a slap in the face to those who aren't fortunate enough to be born in a wealthy first world country who do not have to deal first hand with the outcome of such philosophical projections.

Quote:Basically what they think is the reality held by the majority of people.

What they think is the reality of what they think. A simply tautology, granted. There thoughts however do not shape the world. At least not this human history; it has always been those few in power of controlling what the masses see and hear who manipulate and pressure upon what and even how people think.

The "reality" is that the beliefs held by the majority of people, especially those beliefs containing negative presuppositions towards different groups of people, are not the product of the individual but adopted as a form of herd mentality. Case in point: the "Big Three" Abrahamic religions. What the majority of adherents to these religions believe and think couldn't be further from reality.

Quote:To say that what the majority think about something completely subjective is not relevant to the reality of it is quite a false claim to make. The reality is made by the people.

The reality is not made by the people. The majority of people used to believe the earth was flat, and that our planet was the centre of the universe. The "reality" of the situation was that a very small number of people managed to disprove this claim and lo and behold the major opinion changed by the "reality" of the situation was the same as it was before. Sophistry isn't a useful tool.

Quote:

Quote:In respect to アニメと漫画 a lot of it is "made for children", but a lot of it is intended for older audiences. Irregardless of the intentions of the creators, adults can watch what they please and if they can gain something from a particular show then so be it. There are Studio Ghibli movies which are "made" for children, although adults are able to enjoy them all the same. Are these adults "manchildren"?

Do people consider these people "manchildren"? If not, then they are not. It's all about perspective, and as much some "adult" shows make people who watch them "manchildren" in people's mind, some "children's" shows can be enjoyed by all without judgment.

No one is wrong. No one is right. But what the general population thinks is what really matters.

"Manchildren" is made of up two very well understood terms, man/adult, and child. To call an adult, a child, is a direct claim in respect to personal maturity. There is a very useful remit for gauging maturity already, and it is not a simple matter of "if someone says they are, they are; if someone says the aren't, they aren't.".
It is the same as saying that someone is mentally retarded means they are mentally retarded, etc. This reasoning simply does not hold up.

What the general population thinks is not really what matters AT ALL. I am currently taking medication to help balance out mood issues in respect to bi-polar disorder. The reasoning is identical, as it is about the brain state of an individual. Regardless of whether or not the general population thinks I should or should not be on my current medication, matters not at all. A billion opinionated people can contradict my GP and guess what? They're opinion means NOTHING. Because it does not in any respect, reflect the reality of the situation. The medication I am on has a positive impact, and when I miss taking them, there is a negative physically correlation.

Another example: someone performs an task in a different manner to what is usually performed. Everyone else calls him an idiot. Turns out the manner in which he performed this task is actually more efficient and increases overall productivity within the work environment. This person was myself, at a job I used to work at. There was a task which had been taught to be done in a certain specific manner- and this was the "right" way about it- all other ways were "wrong". Well, after not too long I noticed certain redundant steps involved and others which could be performed in a vastly easier way which reduced stress on the body and increased output.

The reality of the situation was not that I was an "idiot"- because "idiot" means something; it is defined, and regardless of your opinion, definitions are not something which can simply be defined and redefined depending on the individual. Meaning shifts over time but not in a solipsistic manner. Well, it often does in the arguments of apologists, but that's about it, and about as rational. The "reality" of the situation is that everyone else was projecting an idiotic attitude in respect to the circumstance, as the newer method was overall more efficient, easier, less stressful, and more productive. Over time this newer method I came up with become the norm, and no longer "idiotic", nor was I an "idiot" anymore.

Did the reality change just because of popular thought? Was I an idiot and then no longer, simply because everyone else changed there minds? By your reasoning, apparently so.

Betelgeuzah Wrote:

Quote:Anyway, you don't need to explain to me what constitutes Japanese culture, what interesting things there are about it, and why people may like those things. I have no issues with that.

What is this, then, dude?

Quote:Apart from entertainment, what else does Japan offer in terms of culture and why should we care about those non-entertainment culture?

I even asked if it's a joke.

Quote:Japanese Architecture is a specialized topic that, and I repeat again, mainly appeals to people who already like architecture.

Japanese architecture appeals to everyone who looks at a Japanese-themed architecture and finds it appealing. This is what I have been telling you, and this is what you don't seem to grasp. You don't need to talk about it, or think about it, or do something related to it to find something appealing. Discussion forums nor their existence aren't the sole life-force of any subject worth caring about.

Quote:And this is completely unacceptable. Nobody is a manchild for listening to music. Nobody is a manchild for watching movies. Nobody is a manchild for watching TV shows. All of those are a form of media. Anime is a form of media. So why is watching anime a negative thing?

You watch TV shows made for kids; you are a manchild.
You listen to songs made for kids; you are a manchild.
You watch TV shows made for manchildren; you are a manchild.

Granted, there is not always a strict definition as to what is a TV show for children. That's up to the people to decide. And when the majority of people think a TV program is made for manchildren, that's the reality. Perhaps not to the person in question who watches said program, but for everyone else out there. And neither party is 'wrong', because it has been and will always be subjective. Though, the person perceived as a manchild may have a much harder time outside his or hers own little reality because nobody else agrees with him.

What's the difference between anime and some random TV show/movie other than the fact that it's animated?

Tell me...

Are TV shows more mature? No.
Are they more complicated? No
Do they have more "adult" dialogue? Definitely no

So what exactly is the difference?

Anime is just a genre of video entertainment... I don't see what the big deal is either.

Here are some simple reasons not to worry too much in regards the population decline issues and the like:

1. Tokyo is projected to retain a massive population even as the rest of the country's population drops significantly. As long as crazy big Tokyo is around you'll always have plenty of Japanese content to indulge in.

2. Japan has a fairly broad income distribution/good income equality. A society with a broad income distribution handles economic downturns better than a society that doesn't. Or in other words when everyone becomes poorer together at more or less the same rate it is easier to adjust.

3. Japan's GDP can fall significantly and it will still have a higher GDP than plenty of other places that people still have tons of interest in. For example if Japan's population drops to 87 million by 2060 even with a 50% fall in GDP Japan's GDP per capita will still be nearly equal to the European Union average and nearly 40% higher than South Korea.

Betelgeuzah Wrote:And frankly, if you ask the majority outside the otaku bubble they will think of someone in his 20's or above watching anime (especially the creepy kind) as a manchild.

These people were complaining about the geeks all the way back in middle school!　アニオタが許されるのは小学生までだよねーキャハハハハハハ