IceCream Wrote:There's definitely a level of suicidality in which this is the case, but the thing is, i very much doubt that anyone who is in that state would actually kill themselves.

What you are describing just isn't the level at which someone would kill themselves, it's the level at which they would think exactly what you've presented. The natural will to live is very strong. The state where people actually commit suicide is qualitatively different to the one you're describing (for depression).

It doesn't have a lot to do with being irrational, imo. In fact, eventually, depression will strip you so bare of all meaning that even this potential for there to be something, or life, or some future happiness itself seems meaningless. To me, suicide is the rational position from that state.

Hmm that makes sense, maybe what I'm talking about is at a stage a bit earlier than being really suicidal, because I was referring to mental state in which one thinks about suicide several times a day and that there's no hope. But maybe it's not yet the point where one can actually do it.

IceCream Wrote:tbh, i think the feeling of meaning, and that of happiness, are more illusory than the reality in which you find yourself honestly wanting to die. It's impossible to find any meaning if you are truly outside those states, even in the idea of those states. And so, suicide becomes rational. Of course, rationally, i would choose the illusion, always, and once you have it, things are meaningful again. But if you're in a position from which you've tried everything to find your way there and reality won't budge, that's the end of it, really.

Cool, just as I told my friend the other day, "I would sometimes willingly choose to fool myself to rest by head!".
But I disagree about those happiness and meaning, I don't pursue happiness (maybe just lessen pain, maybe it can be considered as looking for happiness? but I find it essentially different) and I don't see a meaning in life, I just think I'm lucky to have this special quality of being conscious, of being aware of my existence and being able to perceive the world, but it doesn't make my life meaningful in anyway, it's just what it is. But I don't think about suicide!

IceCream Wrote:I guess it's almost impossible to understand if you've never been in that state though, only the state where those ideas do still hold enough meaning for you to be able to find meaning in your own stubbornness.

What exactly do you mean by "meaning"?


And to quote one of the most elegant statements that I've ever heard or read, which I wouldn't appreciate without that experience and philosophy: ”There is but one truly serious philosophical problem, and that is suicide. Judging whether life is or is not worth living amounts to answering the fundamental question of philosophy.” –Camus
What an elegant statement!

undead_saif Wrote:What exactly do you mean by "meaning"?

I think it's a kind of feeling, but not in the same way as happiness or sadness are feelings. It's a certain quality of fullness, as opposed to emptiness, that all other states carry. I guess i can't define it too well (possibly dasein is the closest thing i can think of), but i don't mean something like the "meaning of life" in any rational sense, because i think that's silly.

i think it's actually quite common for people to lose meaning, but to lose it at the meta level (so that the idea of fullness itself seems empty, and to feel that emptiness intensely) is probably less common. Once you're in that state of fullness, it's inherantly meaningful though, of course.

undead_saif Wrote:And to quote one of the most elegant statements that I've ever heard or read, which I wouldn't appreciate without that experience and philosophy: ”There is but one truly serious philosophical problem, and that is suicide. Judging whether life is or is not worth living amounts to answering the fundamental question of philosophy.” –Camus
What an elegant statement!

I still haven't read myth of sisyphus yet, but i probably ought to at some point. I kind of imagined it as some kind of rational project, which can only ever lead to extremely dodgy views on this topic, i think, kind of like considering meaning as something external, which can only ever devalue life. (For instance, i don't even think that whether life is worth living or not is something you could truly ever "decide", it's completely the wrong way to look at it). I may be completely off though, having never read it. Have you read it? If so, is it good?

IceCream Wrote:I think it's a kind of feeling, but not in the same way as happiness or sadness are feelings. It's a certain quality of fullness, as opposed to emptiness, that all other states carry. I guess i can't define it too well, but i don't mean something like the "meaning of life" in any rational sense, because i think that's silly.

I think I understand. This definition makes your previous post more sensible. In my previous post what I meant by "meaning" is along the lines of "purpose" and "goal", like pursuing happiness, serving God, benefiting the human race, etc.. . Using your definition of meaning I think taking advantage of being aware/conscious is also a meaning, so it follows that having no meaning in life is like having the feeling of being dead (if I may imagine that), total emptiness.

IceCream Wrote:i think it's actually quite common for people to lose meaning, but to lose it at the meta level (so that the idea of fullness itself seems empty, and to feel that emptiness intensely) is probably less common. Once you're in that state of fullness, it's inherantly meaningful though, of course.

As tempting it's to pour some thought into this I'll pass! Anyway, I've seen something new, so thanks!

IceCream Wrote:I still haven't read myth of sisyphus yet, but i probably ought to at some point. I kind of imagined it as some kind of rational project, which can only ever lead to extremely dodgy views on this topic, i think (kind of like considering meaning as something external). Have you read it? If so, is it good?

No, I haven't, unfortunately, but now that you've pointed it out, I think I will have a look! Thanks

IceCream Wrote:

undead_saif Wrote:What exactly do you mean by "meaning"?

I think it's a kind of feeling, but not in the same way as happiness or sadness are feelings. It's a certain quality of fullness, as opposed to emptiness, that all other states carry. I guess i can't define it too well (possibly dasein is the closest thing i can think of), but i don't mean something like the "meaning of life" in any rational sense, because i think that's silly.

While reading the above, this story came to mind for some reason:

Quote:A student went to see his meditation teacher and said, “My situation is horrible! I feel so distracted most of the time, or my legs ache, or I’m repeatedly falling asleep. It’s terrible.” Said the teacher matter-of-factly, “It will pass.”

A week later, the student returned to his teacher. “My meditation is wonderful! I feel so aware, so peaceful, so alive!” The teacher told him, “It will pass.”

There's one more thing I'd like to point out in addition to the above discussion, which is the role of other people in one's own meaning of life. Just as IceCream pointed out somewhere that when holding a certain feeling, idea or belief, the meaninglessness magically disappears. The feeling of connection (with other people) or belonging (to a group of people) is a strong example of this. A person can be depressed and losing to all meanings in life and suddenly becomes a "happy" person who strongly want to live just by holding this feeling, like someone who established a family, or who found love...

@uisukii I see the connection with the discussion, but it's a different kind of emptiness.

undead_saif Wrote:There's one more thing I'd like to point out in addition to the above discussion, which is the role of other people in one's own meaning of life. Just as IceCream pointed out somewhere that when holding a certain feeling, idea or belief, the meaninglessness magically disappears. The feeling of connection (with other people) or belonging (to a group of people) is a strong example of this.

Speaking from experience, both "happiness" and "sadness" have had little to do with the gain or loss of meaning, identity, etc. Both emotions are essentially polarities which derive meaning from the presence of each other. Even when I am in a very low mood (that is, what people may refer to as "severe depression"), it does not mean I cannot find a state of happiness. It happens, as does sadness. Both, fleetingly, in passing.

Quote:A person can be depressed and losing to all meanings in life and suddenly becomes a "happy" person who strongly want to live just by holding this feeling, like someone who established a family, or who found love...

Maybe in the movies, but rapid changes are often a calm before the storm. Long term depression, severe low moods, suicidal thoughts, etc. do not suddenly change, and remain changed. Rapid change from having low energy and lack of focus, feelings of emptiness, worthless, etc. to exhibiting something resembling an epiphany; embracing something, someone, a concept, an ideal, are often the tell tale signs of a manic desperation and if the person has a history of suicidal tendencies, this erratic behaviour may be just the boost which can just as suddenly as it came, can become swept up in the learned negative thought patterns, and be the stimulus needed to push the individual into acting upon said suicidal thoughts.

Essentially, those under suicide watch in hospital care, if they were to exhibit such erratic behaviour, the staff would become rather anxious.

Quote:@uisukii I see the connection with the discussion, but it's a different kind of emptiness.

Have you suffered from depression for an extensive period of your life? Social phobia and paranoia? Had suicidal thoughts? Manic behaviour leading to dangerous risks?
These interpersonal issues are dynamic and require an individual approach. There is no simple "this is that" and "that is this" when it comes to how one relates to their own experience and perceives their own existence.

A common cognitive trap people get themselves caught in are those negative internal feedback loops which by their nature fail to get beyond the realisation that "it will pass". Often the "all of nothing" failure prone thinking, wherein individuals end up blaming themselves for not living up to their unrealistic expectation, feeling guilty for it, and continuing to fall back into the learned pattern. It becomes which while is suffering and without comfort, provides a ledge to cling to, as oppose to jumping from the burning building and the fear of not landing in the fireman's net.

A learned fear. The fear that while is may be bad now, that if allowing things to pass, and accept them as they are, you as you are, life as life, their is a change that not only will your burden be lifted but in the process of carrying this burden, when the burden is gone, there will be nothing left of yourself. Mindset is a very powerful thing, and takes time to allow for the brain to physically adjust to the new pattern of behaviour.

初心, or the "beginner's mind", in zen buddhism essentially the same thing: being able to accept one's emptiness as their fullness, their fullness as emptiness; things as coming and passing; ourselves back and forth with this ebb and flow and not being the rock in the steam which gathers the trappings of the flow, distorting the flow of the stream, being slowly worn away at the edges no matter the resistance exhibited.

Becoming an adult without our western societies we have been taught that the rock is strong, resisting the current. That it is noble to be slowly worn down to nothing by the end of our lives. It is a model most of us, if we have been apart of any of the modern societies with values stemming back to, as Watts puts it, a mechanical view of the universe, have been trained and educated to withstand the stream and those whom cannot have failed. Such societal baggage is a lot get off our backs without being crushed by it in the process.

There are people in this world who have literally nothing, living on the streets, eating from garbage bins, abandoned, sold or abused by their parents that still have the will to continue living.

It really makes me wonder about what causes people to abandon all hope and choose suicide. It's almost mind boggling to me in fact. I suspect a large part comes from people comparing themselves to the rest of society and feeling a kind of toxic shame about having a 'lesser' life, feeling like a loser in the eyes of society. But how can you help someone in such a situation when the only way to elevate their mood might be to change the opinions of society around them?
For example how would you help a narcissist who is depressed about being perpetually single? Force someone to date them out of sympathy?
What about people depressed about having a shit jobs? Can we just let everyone have their dream job?

[Zgarbas]

undead_saif Wrote:A person can be depressed and losing to all meanings in life and suddenly becomes a "happy" person who strongly want to live just by holding this feeling, like someone who established a family, or who found love...

Not if it's a medical condition. Any sort of conventional life improving things can become even worse of a burden. You can use them as a crutch, but that doesn't really solve the problem.

uisukii Wrote:

undead_saif Wrote:There's one more thing I'd like to point out in addition to the above discussion, which is the role of other people in one's own meaning of life. Just as IceCream pointed out somewhere that when holding a certain feeling, idea or belief, the meaninglessness magically disappears. The feeling of connection (with other people) or belonging (to a group of people) is a strong example of this.

Speaking from experience, both "happiness" and "sadness" have had little to do with the gain or loss of meaning, identity, etc. Both emotions are essentially polarities which derive meaning from the presence of each other. Even when I am in a very low mood (that is, what people may refer to as "severe depression"), it does not mean I cannot find a state of happiness. It happens, as does sadness. Both, fleetingly, in passing.

Exactly... you can have a full kind of sadness, and an empty kind of happiness, so those states themselves are kind of irrelevent to depression. And happinesses which are empty but too much so they become painful. Their passing, and the awareness that they do pass itself is interpreted with intense pain, emptiness, and a slight nausea because it just won't stop shifting and changing and there's nothing to hold onto. And even if you think that maybe one day they won't be interpreted as pain any more, that itself is empty, and interpreted with pain, and possibly a slight disgust for your potential future self.

Honestly, it feels like your soul has been ripped out. You have nothing left, only pain. Your aesthetic sense has been removed, so you can't make value judgements and decisions. You can't perceive beauty. You have lost your identity entirely, there is no part of yourself left that you can claim as your own, or would even want to claim as your own, but you no longer know anything different or what you even were to begin with (or if you were even anything), because it has taken your entire memory and made it as empty as everything else.

@undeadsaif: Is it the (now defunct) Christmas thread you're referring to? I really didn't articulate myself very clearly in that thread, but it's connected to what i'm talking about here. I don't think the process of doing philosophy is pointless at all, which is how Fabrice interpreted what i was saying. I just think that trying to look outside of humanness is meaningless. Not only is it meaningless, but it actively destroys human meaning. Meaning can only be found within the bounds of our humanness, through certain activities, which involve a dialectical interaction with the world, i think. But it's a spiral expanding outwards. If you're in a negative feedback loop, you're going down. You can't stop yourself from hitting the floor just by taking something from much higher on the spiral and clinging to it, because that doesn't work at that point (if you're mildly depressed, you might be able to, but you're going to have to work as hard as anyone else to maintain it). If you're lucky enough to survive the bottom and have some form of meaning returned to you (possibly through drugs), it's then that you've really got to work, to engage in dialectic, and through that dialectic build an identity strong enough so that those times when you lose meaning, you learn to watch it pass without pain and find your soul maintained when it returns.

... aaaand i really didn't articulate myself too well here either, probably hahah.

nadiatims Wrote:There are people in this world who have literally nothing, living on the streets, eating from garbage bins, abandoned, sold or abused by their parents that still have the will to continue living.

It really makes me wonder about what causes people to abandon all hope and choose suicide. It's almost mind boggling to me in fact.

It's because you're considering "having the will" to be a choice. In reality, it's the opposite; if someone's will is in fact in tact, they can survive anything. If their will has been damaged to a certain extent, suicide becomes an inevitability. If you ask why certain situations seem to lead to a loss of will for some people, the answer is often found in genetics and epigenetics, or in a negative feedback loop that they can't find their way out of.

nadiatims Wrote:But how can you help someone in such a situation when the only way to elevate their mood might be to change the opinions of society around them?
For example how would you help a narcissist who is depressed about being perpetually single? Force someone to date them out of sympathy?
What about people depressed about having a shit jobs? Can we just let everyone have their dream job?

As soon as you say "depressed about", you are talking about something else. What you mean is "unhappy about". (Such negative thinking can be symptomatic of depression, but it doesn't constitute it.). In the examples you gave, it's a result of placing too much importance on something. Yeah, you can help them achieve that goal in a practical sense, or you can try to convince them to see things in a different light and realise that that goal was worthless anyway. It has little to do with society.

Depression doesn't have to be *about* something. That's probably part of why it's so hard to understand for someone who hasn't been "down there" themselves, so to speak.

I'm into human physiology, nutrition and stuff like that. From what I know, some people are simply prone to it, and can have an episode 'triggered' through minor setbacks, even something that normally wouldn't bother anyone, including themselves. It can be really unpredictable.

In fact, I'm usually pretty cool with my own life regardless of what happens, and I can still feel it coming on like a sort of mental fog at times, especially if I'm isolating myself too much with studies, etc. Proper exercise, diet, sleep and social interaction tends to help, and not only because of the routines it necessitates.

Might not be enough if you're in a severe state, though. I've had gym sessions that were some of the most terrifying experiences of my life. Just saying.

yeah, the fog, and excessive tiredness, are often the first symptoms (and i totally agree about the triggering thing too).

I advise anyone who's interested to really understand what the more physical symptoms (and probably some of the mental ones, depending on how strong you are) to not sleep for at least three days and see how you feel, and consider what it would be like trying to maintain your life feeling like that for months or even years on end.

Even now, if i don't sleep, i can slip into some kind of alternate reality. The feeling is a really good parralel, though, luckily, cleared after a good sleep. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a link between depression and sleep quality actually.

IceCream Wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if there were a link between depression and sleep quality actually.

Amount of natural light over a period of time probably also shared a correlation with mood and behaviour, similar to sleep. Circadian rhythms are rather fickle and prolonged interference can lead to chemical imbalances.

Sleep deprivation is essentially the early stages of brain death, isn't it? I think I remember reading up a study on the effects of prolonged sleep deprivation on patients with meth addictions... something about the beginnings of increased cell death similar to alcohol consumption. It was a few years ago, so don't quote me on it though.

Yeah, there's quite a clear link between depression and disrupted sleep patterns. It can be various forms of insomnia or simply sleeping too much, not sure what the split looks like though. Something important to keep in mind - like any clinical condition, depression is different for everyone.

uisukii Wrote:Amount of natural light over a period of time probably also shared a correlation with mood and behaviour, similar to sleep. Circadian rhythms are rather fickle and prolonged interference can lead to chemical imbalances.

To be frank, I have yet to understand what "chemical imbalances" actually means. It just seems like a vague but convenient way to refer to off hormone levels or something, which can be rather different things depending on what you are actually talking about.

As far as I'm concerned, there's not really a meaningful distinction to be made between psychology and physiology in the first place. If you're feeling bad, stuff in your brain is going to be made that shows that on an objective level, yep, you're actually feeling bad. Asking which of them came first just turns the whole issue into a hen or egg question.

vix86 Wrote:On Thursday the 14th, an 11 year old boy jumped from the platform at a station in Osaka killing his self. He left his bookbag on the platform and in it a note begging the school to forgo the closing of their school and the merging with another school. Prior to jumping he had sent an email to his mother stating: "Thank you for everything. I love you all very, very much."

Press:
http://mainichi.jp/select/news/20130215k...6000c.html
http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/wor...6579065644

Depression and bullying are one thing, and easier to understand why they would drive someone to commit suicide, but this case flies in the face of reason. I can't help but wonder if there hasn't been enough done to spread a message that there are other options besides killing yourself, or maybe that the constant coverage of suicide events in the news has given the act some kind of voice in the culture (ie: legitimized it).

Ok, so some kid killed himself over nothing. Does that really mean suicide is never legitimate, and we should all stop talking about it honestly and pretend it is inherently evil? Or does it mean what this one kid did was wrong, but that's no reason to generalize?

Also, something really interesting to note - sleep deprivation seems to improve symptoms of depression in some people.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/drea...depression

Stansfield123 Wrote:Ok, so some kid killed himself over nothing. Does that really mean suicide is never legitimate, and we should all stop talking about it honestly and pretend it is inherently evil? Or does it mean what this one kid did was wrong, but that's no reason to generalize?

Assuming that you're not trolling: I'm pretty sure that when people are saying it's wrong, they aren't saying it's morally wrong (i.e. evil) to commit suicide, but rather that it's not cool for someone who could have lived an otherwise happy life to wish themselves dead.

When is suicide legit, in your opinion?

mourei Wrote:

uisukii Wrote:Amount of natural light over a period of time probably also shared a correlation with mood and behaviour, similar to sleep. Circadian rhythms are rather fickle and prolonged interference can lead to chemical imbalances.

To be frank, I have yet to understand what "chemical imbalances" actually means. It just seems like a vague but convenient way to refer to off hormone levels or something, which can be rather different things depending on what you are actually talking about.

In respect to medication it usually refers to the symptoms displayed by those with higher or lower synapse activity in respect to serotonin secretion, etc. Outside of a clinical, neurological application, I'm not sure of any other derived meaning. I suppose one could make the statement that the meaning is dependent on the specifics of the brain active/site under scrutiny.

Quote:As far as I'm concerned, there's not really a meaningful distinction to be made between psychology and physiology in the first place. If you're feeling bad, stuff in your brain is going to be made that shows that on an objective level, yep, you're actually feeling bad. Asking which of them came first just turns the whole issue into a hen or egg question.

"Bad" or "good" is not an objective statement, however. That aside, one meaningful distinction could be that psychology is a specified study in relation to the individuals well being in relation to their behaviour and the related diagnosis for treatment, whereas physiology isn't focused on treating patients. One is an application of the other in the same way physics can be treated as an application of mathematics.

I don't think anyone is creating a chicken/egg paradox out of this. The sciences do not negative each other, they apply each other through an underlying principle methodology.


EDIT:

mourei Wrote:Also, something really interesting to note - sleep deprivation seems to improve symptoms of depression in some people.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/drea...depression

Interesting to read. In my experience, this aspect of deprivation has brought about a certain feeling of clarity, although with increase in mesolimbic networks, I have often found myself ending up in a manic state. Though there may be already irregular or disrupted activity within these feedback systems within myself, as I have been diagnosed to exhibit bi-polar symptoms.

It would be interesting to have more study on this phenomenon, as it may help provide further insight into therapy, etc.

Sorry, this is going to be a quick reply.

uisukii Wrote:Speaking from experience, both "happiness" and "sadness" have had little to do with the gain or loss of meaning, identity, etc. Both emotions are essentially polarities which derive meaning from the presence of each other. Even when I am in a very low mood (that is, what people may refer to as "severe depression"), it does not mean I cannot find a state of happiness. It happens, as does sadness. Both, fleetingly, in passing.

I think I wasn't clear when I used "happiness" up there, I meant something else by using "".

uisukii Wrote:Maybe in the movies, but rapid changes are often a calm before the storm. Long term depression, severe low moods, suicidal thoughts, etc. do not suddenly change, and remain changed. Rapid change from having low energy and lack of focus, feelings of emptiness, worthless, etc. to exhibiting something resembling an epiphany; embracing something, someone, a concept, an ideal, are often the tell tale signs of a manic desperation and if the person has a history of suicidal tendencies, this erratic behaviour may be just the boost which can just as suddenly as it came, can become swept up in the learned negative thought patterns, and be the stimulus needed to push the individual into acting upon said suicidal thoughts.

Essentially, those under suicide watch in hospital care, if they were to exhibit such erratic behaviour, the staff would become rather anxious.

Hmm, maybe I was describing a little different case, or maybe you're not getting my point I have an idea about mood swings, but they don't seem to be what you're saying.

uisukii Wrote:Have you suffered from depression for an extensive period of your life? Social phobia and paranoia? Had suicidal thoughts? Manic behaviour leading to dangerous risks?
These interpersonal issues are dynamic and require an individual approach. There is no simple "this is that" and "that is this" when it comes to how one relates to their own experience and perceives their own existence.

About the individual approach that's something I didn't learn about before.

uisukii Wrote:A learned fear. The fear that while is may be bad now, that if allowing things to pass, and accept them as they are, you as you are, life as life, their is a change that not only will your burden be lifted but in the process of carrying this burden, when the burden is gone, there will be nothing left of yourself. Mindset is a very powerful thing, and takes time to allow for the brain to physically adjust to the new pattern of behaviour.

初心, or the "beginner's mind", in zen buddhism essentially the same thing: being able to accept one's emptiness as their fullness, their fullness as emptiness; things as coming and passing; ourselves back and forth with this ebb and flow and not being the rock in the steam which gathers the trappings of the flow, distorting the flow of the stream, being slowly worn away at the edges no matter the resistance exhibited.

Becoming an adult without our western societies we have been taught that the rock is strong, resisting the current. That it is noble to be slowly worn down to nothing by the end of our lives. It is a model most of us, if we have been apart of any of the modern societies with values stemming back to, as Watts puts it, a mechanical view of the universe, have been trained and educated to withstand the stream and those whom cannot have failed. Such societal baggage is a lot get off our backs without being crushed by it in the process.

Nice train of thoughts, and that had a lot to do with breaking the loop for me, recently.

IceCream Wrote:@undeadsaif: Is it the (now defunct) Christmas thread you're referring to?

Nope, I wasn't referring to that thread, I was referring to your posts here!

IceCream Wrote:You can't stop yourself from hitting the floor just by taking something from much higher on the spiral and clinging to it, because that doesn't work at that point (if you're mildly depressed, you might be able to, but you're going to have to work as hard as anyone else to maintain it). If you're lucky enough to survive the bottom and have some form of meaning returned to you (possibly through drugs), it's then that you've really got to work, to engage in dialectic, and through that dialectic build an identity strong enough so that those times when you lose meaning, you learn to watch it pass without pain and find your soul maintained when it returns.

... aaaand i really didn't articulate myself too well here either, probably hahah.

Ever heard about "paradigm change" (described, maybe not clearly enough though, at the beginning of "The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People", it's about the mind not the scientific paradigm shift)? A paradigm change will transform the way an individual perceives the world, so it literary changes the world for that person, so what might have drowned him to the bottom (like for example always being not good enough, a good example I guess) might be erased by that paradigm shift. It takes a moment (but a moment that took sometime to reach) for a person whose life hit the bottom because of a negative thought that has been amplified over the years (a good example is blaming people for his pain) to realize that the source of his misery is simply a misunderstanding. It's fortunate and unfortunate for life to be like this.

Again, sorry guys if what I try to convey isn't clear and can be easily interpreted the wrong way, I have hard time explaining myself, and usually say things in a subtle way, so sentences are usually overloaded and require some understanding, it's a shortcoming on my side.
Also I will stop at this point, I think those involved in the discussion will understand why.

mourei Wrote:Assuming that you're not trolling: I'm pretty sure that when people are saying it's wrong, they aren't saying it's morally wrong (i.e. evil) to commit suicide, but rather that it's not cool for someone who could have lived an otherwise happy life to wish themselves dead.

When is suicide legit, in your opinion?

I'm not trolling. But I don't see what distinction you're making between "cool" or "legit", and moral. Morality is, by definition, the criteria by which you evaluate people's choices. If you say that something isn't "cool" when referring to the quality of a person's life altering choices, you're making a moral evaluation. That's what morality is, the evaluation (by whatever method) of someone's life choices. The only thing your use of words like "cool" instead of "moral" tells me is that your evaluation is probably superficial.

To answer your question, suicide is the natural consequence of not having a reason to live. As for how one should find that reason, it is through one of four methods:
1. conscious, rational thought
2. intuitively
3. capriciously, on a whim
4. mindlessly following other people's examples or suggestions

Suicide is a fully legitimate/moral/rational/right/courageous/cool/'whatever other word that refers to the quality of a decision you wish to use' choice when one uses method nr. 1 to look for a reason to live, and finds that there is none.

When someone kills themselves for frivolous reasons, that means they were unable to (in case of mental illness, or in case of someone too young to be fully rational), or chose not to look for that reason using method one, and methods 2 to 4 failed to lead to a legitimate/rational/moral/... result. Then, their choice is illegitimate. But it's not any more legitimate or illegitimate than the choice of someone else, also capriciously or following peer pressure, decides not to kill themselves. Once you take rational thought (and intuition, which is an imperfect approximation of rational thought) out of the equation, the moral value of any decision, no matter the outcome, is exactly the same: none.

The moral value of attempting to impose societal norms that will hopefully cause irrational people to just follow along like sheep towards a positive outcome: less than none. As in negative, immoral, anti-morality and anti-human. Which, finally, brings me to my original point: no, Japanese culture failing to impose a tabu on suicide, and failing to superstitiously vilify and ban it the way the Christian world did, is not a bad thing. Not even if it "caused" this unsupervised, improperly cared for child to misunderstand the culture around him and kill himself. (and I put "caused" in quotes because it didn't really cause it)

uisukii Wrote:"Bad" or "good" is not an objective statement, however.

Let's say you want to build an airplane. One that actually flies. Given that fact, would you say that the statement "making it out of lead is bad" is an objective statement, or a subjective one?

@Stansfield: are we talking (or, rather, arguing) again yet?

I don't think you can escape culture that easily. If no.4 is illigitimate (which i agree, it is dehumanising), and what you said is correct, then it should also follow that the moral value of a society that imposes social norms linking suicide with honour and thereby causing people who mindlessly follow other people's rules to throw their lives away is also less than none.

In fact, while i don't think that failing to impose a taboo is necessarily a bad thing, actively promoting suicide through linking it to honour is much worse than making a taboo in this case. As dehumanising as no.4 is, it is only dehumanising in a way which is already human... someone living because they are performing no.4 is being a "bad human" imo, rather than a "good human". (in the exact sense you were speaking about in your next post... the greek sense in which a horse can be a good horse, and a chair can be a good chair and lead is a bad choice for building an airoplane that falls within the definition of "airoplane"). But they are at least being human. Someone who kills themselves through following no.4 and thus rejects their humanness completely, without ever even really understanding that that is what they are doing... now that's about as anti-human as you can get. Or, "not cool", if you want to put it like that. Of course, that's a very humanistic judgement. But allowing that to continue, or arguing that it is ok in a society also debases yourself, and your own humanness, i think.

(i don't mean to suggest here that it's impossible to die for honour in a human way, only that it cannot come through no.4)

Do you really have a conscious, rational reason to live? That strikes me as somewhat odd... tbh, i think no.1 is actually not possible, and also leads to dehumanising and meaningless conclusions.

@undeadsaid: ok, np. i get what you're saying, i've also experienced that at times. If you can find a paradigm shift that can do that, it's really great, and you should definitely hook onto it and live it fully. I think it's just that i (and i think uisukii as well) are talking about something a little different, so we're ending up talking at cross purposes a bit.

[Zgarbas]

I would just like to add one thing on the topic. Personally, it's not that Japan didn't make suicide a tabu, it's the fact that it basically encourages it as a positive/acceptable thing that can be seen as a bad thing.

I personally think that people should decide for themselves whether or not they want to continue to live, but the way in which suicide is seen negatively affects a great deal of people. Suicide idealization is actually a thing, and it does affect society. Sure, most people aren't going to go through with it, but when you're 14 and reading about how all those literary heroes killed themselves you subconsciously start associating suicide with them. To a greater extent this goes for depression (especially manic depression), as I noticed many people who rarely had any real troubles claiming to be manic depressive or suffering from other popular mental disorders (aaah, the highschool freshmen bipolar girls who heard the term in that Placebo song...). If you start thinking that smart people=depressed=likely to commit suicide there is a possibility you'll start wanting to go in that direction. Consider all the teenagers who start self-harming because their teen angst dictates that maybe cutting yourself will make you deep and unique and cool because the world sucks and you want to die. You can call it natural selection if you're a bit cynical, but still.

Instead of being a niche thing like in Western culture (certain literary figures, certain genres of music, what not), you have a good part of Japan's literary history revolving around suicide. Consider the amount of love suicides which rose significantly once they became popular in plays. Seppuku was pushed as a means of control, but it ended up spreading amongst the general populace either way, etc. It's a big part of Japanese culture, and that does tend to affect people's views. As long as 義理 plays an important role in their lives, suicides will continue to be common.

When I had made this topic about suicide being popularized/idealized within in the society. I think the main thing I was getting at was the lack of admission on suicide I see around. I see the fact that no one really wants to speak up against suicide, as an admission that its fine. I know this is completely false, because people are always shocked when they hear about a kid committing suicide. Child suicides these days are mainly the result of bullying and they've started addressing the issue of bullying, but there hasn't been much done in my eyes to address the idea that suicide is fine.

I don't see ad campaigns at stations or on trains talking about not committing suicide and if you have a problem, there are people can help.
I've never seen ads on TV talking about "Are you depressed, are you thinking about killing your self? There are people can help, call ###" (though I don't watch much TV so maybe they do exist).
I've yet to see a lecture or talk at my schools about suicide/depression/etc.
Have there been specials on any variety shows/NHK/etc. on suicide? I'm sure there have been plenty on bullying and financial pitfalls.

Again, plenty has been done to address the problems that lead people to suicide, and I think these can be good steps forward. But there's been little in the way of discussion about suicide itself.

I think a big problem is that trains are actually a lot like guns in the US. They're an accessible easy opportunity item for committing suicide with incredibly high rates of success. If you own a gun in the US, you are highly likely to die at your own hand because its so easy to grab the gun and shoot yourself. Just as its very easy for someone to walk to the station with a fast train and jump on the track.

[Zgarbas]

Didn't they introduce the fine against suicide, especially by train, in Japan to guilt trip people? Spain also has that. (Spain has big posters about it in the train stations)

IMHO one problem is that it's a very personal matter; it's a bit harder to bring up in public.

Also, from Wiki

Quote:Despite an economic upturn in 2007, suicide rates have continued to be high, prompting concern by the Japanese government.[28] Describing the situation as very serious, they have called on municipalities to implement measures based on the differing realities.[5][clarification needed] In 2007, the government released a nine-step plan, a "counter-suicide White Paper," which it hopes will curb suicide by 20% by 2017.[28] The goal of the White Paper is to encourage investigation of the root causes of suicide in order to prevent it, change cultural attitudes toward suicide, and improve treatment of unsuccessful suicides.[28] In 2009, the Japanese government committed 15.8 billion yen towards suicide prevention strategies. Naoto Kan, the former prime minister, has spoken of his desire to "minimize unhappiness" in the country and has repeatedly spoken about the need to reduce Japan's high suicide rate.[27]

Japan has allotted 12.4 billion yen ($133 million) in suicide prevention assets for the 2010 fiscal year ending March 2011, with plans to fund public counseling for those with overwhelming debts and those needing treatment for depression.[20]

Amid the overall increase in self-inflicted death for 2009, the government claims there have been encouraging signs since September. The Cabinet Office said the number of monthly suicides declined year-on-year between September 2009 and April 2010.[20] According to preliminary figures compiled by the NPA, the number of suicides fell 9.0 percent from the year before.