Hi guys! Happy new year!

I was reading through the “Goals for 2013” thread when I started to think back on my Japanese-learning journey. I’ve studied the language for around 3,5 years and could probably call myself “fluent” and get away with it. I’ve passed N1, understand written and spoken Japanese well and can function well in a lot of different settings here in Japan. However, due to being 100% self learned, I have a lot of holes in my Japanese, especially when it comes to speaking. I changed from a 100% passive way of learning (learning new words through books, a lot of passive listening etc.) to a more active way of learning (doing monologues, activating vocab I already know by going Norwegian – Japanese in Anki) a couple of months ago. By doing so, I’ve managed to activate a lot of vocabulary I know, which is great, but I still struggle with my grammar.
I’m talking about basic stuff here: sentence structure, こそあど言葉, set grammar phrases (N3/N2 stuff), verb conjugations, some particle issues etc.
Do you guys have any tips on how to drill these basic grammar skills so that they stay active and can be put into use on command?
I’ve bought several books (Sentence patterns for effective communication, JLPT grammar drill books etc.), but since I already understand everything passively I really don’t know how to use these books efficiently. I usually start out picking a couple of grammar points and use these in a monologue, but since I already know them passively I don’t know what to do to make them “stick”.

I don’t know why, but I find it really easy to remember phrases when they come in a format like this:
“なぜかというと…からです”
Like set patterns, words that often go with each other etc.
Do you guys know of any books with a lot of patterns like this?

I’m sorry if this post was kind if confusing, I’m struggling a bit myself with what I’m actually looking for. I don’t know if books and drills are what I need, or just some different way of learning, but all I know is that I have to do something. I can function pretty well here in Japan, and could probably do just fine with my current Japanese level forever, but I really want to “fill in the blanks” and get better, and I really do think that some new method or new resources are needed in order to up my Japanese further.

Thank you guys so much!

Why don't you try cloze deleting sentences from those books. That's what I am doing.

Also, thinking yourself "fluent" makes you worry when you see your faults/holes. It's not your thing, it's a general thing of people thinking themselves fluent just after 3~4 years of actively studying language X.

@Zorlee

I have exactly the same problem, like, if it's for JLPT I don't have problems running through the 文法 section, but when it comes to using grammar (also more intermediate/advanced one), I struggle in the same way you do.

I find it also easier to remember patterns like なぜかというと、～からだ／です and なぜなら、～からだ／です. I find it really difficult to keep in mind, e.g. what forms do not follow this-and-that-conditional (と is easy. The usage is pretty limited, but ば・たら・なら have so many conditions when to use them and what should not follow S2, if you understand what I mean!)

I think I had opened such a topic somewhere already, but it's good you did, too

What you need to do is to use grammar the same way that Japanese natives use them.
Study grammar points for the JLPT help you understand grammar points, but to actually use them
you need to hear Japanese natives use them in conversation. Otherwise, you risk using it a non-native manner.

Download some j-drama subtitles and study them.
Not passively, but actively.

For example, since the subtitles are the exact actual words from the actors, it's basically a screenplay.
So actually act out the scenes yourself. Actually read the words aloud and put some feeling into it. Also, try to see if you can figure out the context from just reading the words. Imagine the situation in your mind.

This really helps because the next time you're in a situation in real life, you might be able to recall a scene from drama and use the same grammar. That's what I usually do. I find a similar situation in real life and them pretend I'm acting out a drama scene.

Grab some subtitles from here (or D-addicts):
http://jpsubbers.x10.mx/

A great resource for these common patterns and related variations of contextual particle usage, is the book "A Dictionary of Japanese Particles", by Sue A Kawashima. It covers a massive range of patterns and various usages, and there is an extensive "set grammar phrase" appendix which you could study and then mine similar dialogue to review in Anki, such as from ドラマ series', as chamcham suggested, or whatever native material which you enjoy and can find a reliable word-for-word text source for the dialogue.


I'm nowhere near at the level of language you are at with Japanese, but I have found that even simply by reading through this book from time to time, and the many examples of set grammar phrases, I often find myself later, while watching or listening to something native, recalling upon some of or parts of said particle/set pattern variations as mentioned.

Given the overall conformist nature of Japanese society, I'd imagine getting the patterns into your memory will do wonders when it comes to output, at least to get by in some more uncommon circumstances as a bit of a fall back where otherwise you may be unable to participate.

yeah I just MCDs for this problem and it's been working out.
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...#pid163397
now i have over 2000 cards lol.

basically you have to pay attention every single syllable so for that there's MCD's, reading out loud, memorizing sentences word for word etc etc.

in that thread I mentioned the MCD plugin which is really convenient which is available for anki 2 too.
https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/3001772895

This doesn't necessarily deal with grammar, but a helpful technique is to use 知恵袋 to search for the nuance of a particular word, phrase, or grammatical structure. The explanations are often quite detailed. In fact, today I searched for the difference in nuance between 電話をするvs.電話をかける. There is a fortune of other explanations in the same post as well!

Thanks everyone for your replies!
I really appreciate them all!
I just got "A Dictionary of Japanese Particles", I'll definitely start working on that. Thank you very much for the recommendation, uisukii!

Do you guys know of any books covering all the basics in a very concise way?
Since I haven't used any textbooks in my studies, I'd like to go through all the basic grammar once more and check if I can actively use it all. However, going through the 600+ pages of the basic Japanese dictionary and / or going through textbooks just looking for the grammar points will probably get boring really fast, so I'm looking for a list or a book, similar to tae kim's guide but more concise covering more stuff.
Is this asking too much, or does something like this exist?

I'm sorry about all the questions, it's just that I really like to study in a systematical way, knowing that I'll cover everything.

Thank you!!

[Zgarbas]

Maybe a direct grammar list like Jgrams or Renshuu's could help?

I don't think I said that I haven't studied grammar?
I've studied grammar, using Tae Kim's guide, JLPT grammar books and other resources like 知恵袋 etc. However, up until now I've done so passively only, meaning I've been focusing on recognition only. Even though I can understand very high level Japanese grammar, I can put to use only a small percentage of that, and that I want to change. I want to be able to use more of the grammar I understand passively, so that I can express myself more freely and have more interesting conversations

Maybe you should try to get away from Anki and start doing things in Japanese?

Post on a discussion forum, play an online game etc. Do stuff that will force you to use the language to express yourself. You will make mistakes but that's completely fine, right?

Well, currently I am between JLPT N3 and N2 so your Japanese skills are far beyond mine but I've been thinking about the same lately. I ended up asking myself: how did I learn to speak English (more or less) properly? My native language (Hungarian) and English is very different so I thought Japanese wouldn't be much harder than that. In conclusion my answer is that the same method will do in the case of Japanese too.

I plan to fill out some workbooks, write compositions (short ones for first and a bit more advanced ones step by step) and have them corrected (on lang-8 for example). I remember when I started Japanese and heard about these self-teaching methods I thought that the techniques used in classes were so ineffective but I have realized that they had their own advantages. In class you are forced to use your skills no matter how little you know and you just gradually get more and more confident and acquire new knowledge. If you are in Japan then I guess you can ask a Japanese person to have a little talk with you regularly and check your compositions. You could simply go by the book with typical language learning topics like family, school, eating in and out, sports and so on. You have to try to use your Japanese even if you make mistakes, you have to come out of the comfort zone, you have to push yourself. I learnt German a few years ago and I realized quite soon that if I wrote my compositions directly in German I didn't try to use phrases I couldn't use properly. So for a while I wrote my compositions in Hungarian and then translated them into German. In the beginning I had so many mistakes, the whole paper was filled with red. But from the corrections I learnt the correct forms of those phrases and I always tried to use them in my following compositions. And I did the same in my conversations, of course. You always have to put the bar higher than your actual knowledge.

Honestly, I think SRSing, filling out empty spaces and brackets won't get you far as far as production is concerned. You have to start using Japanese for real and exert yourself. Write and speak as much as you can, and always aim a bit higher than your skills to learn something new.

Actually, the most important reason behind this post is that I wanted to use my English a bit Nevertheless it also helped to summarize my thoughts on this topic. I hope it was somewhat useful for you too

EDIT: structuring

And another thought. I read a lot of comments about being careful because it's easy to use the language in a foreign manner. I always wonder if Japanese is the first foreign language of these people they are serious about. Yes, this is absolutely true, it's easy to sound like a foreigner. To be honest, if you only hear and read natives nearly all the time it's still easy to sound like a foreigner. Don't be restrained by this, just enjoy using the language and have fun.