[Zgarbas]

(disclaimer: this is for a school assignment. I will totally use your opinions/experiences. I'm genuinely interested in it, though)

I don't really get the finer details of 本音ｖｓ建前. I mean, I get the general aspect of it, but outside basic comprehension it's still pretty much an alien concept for me. I was especially looking for people who lived in Japan's experience with it (aside from the traditional "what do you mean they aren't actually praising me or asking me out?" culture shock, of which there are a hilarious number of stories on the Internet).

How exactly do Japanese people decide who to use 建前 with and who to use 本音 with? Is it a specific group of people, or does it vary depending on the situation (so they'd use 建前 with a co-worker at work even though they use 本音 with the same coworker when they're drinking). Do they ever truly drop the 建前, anyway?

Also, are Japanese people more likely to use 本音 with foreigners, due to whatever reason? (not necessarily in the being more personal aspect, so much as not feeling the need to be as polite.)

Also, could intentionally misleading behavior still be classified as 本音・建前 or does that solely refer to the general concept of polite on the outside/whatever on the inside? Like, that case with the 教育ママs that intentionally pretend their children aren't studying so they'll bring down other students' grades by setting a bad example; would it stop being classified as traditional 建前 because it is used with intentional ill intent?

And, last but not least (the actual assignment part ^^'), what do you think of 本音・建前? Do you think it's actually disrespectful that they use flowery words to hide their true intentions, maybe wasting your time in the process(since after all, I assume even Japanese people sometimes believe that if they come back another time the problem will be solved)? Do you think it actually plays a role in the increasing number of NEETs and outcasts these days?

Thank you for your time ^^.

You're confusing the concept by looking at it as a social strategy. It's less a social strategy, and more of a Japanese world view. You have the presentable and politically correct 建前 wrapped around the unpalatable and realistic 本音.

Japanese people are more likely to vent problems with Japanese culture to foreigners sometimes, but it's mostly the same way they would to their very close Japanese friends.

It's not about differentiating who to use which concept with. It's more that most Japanese communication happens simultaneously at these two levels. Both parties know what the 建前 translates to in terms of the 本音, and they act accordingly.

One of the key examples of this is the gender relations in Japan. Sex is still seen as dirty and 恥ずかしい. So the 建前 is that no "worthwhile" woman should be interested in it. However, the men see themselves as being able to see through that 建前 to know what the woman "truly wants," and voila, it produces the vibrant rape culture you see today in Japan where it's considered the hottest thing ever for a woman to repeatedly say "No." during a sexual encounter.

I apologize for the crude example, but there's really no more apparent example of these concepts within the culture.

edit:

残業 is another good example. The 建前 is the pay and job description. However every Japanese person knows that it will be expected of them, when asked, to work off the clock in order to keep their job. This happens to salarymen as well as low level positions at things like bowling alleys.

The 本音 is not meant to be secret. It's actually expected that both parties understand it quite well. It just isn't talked about in an official capacity. It isn't planned for in documentation. It will not be explicitly mentioned in a performance review.

[Zgarbas]

Isn't the "woman saying no but secretly meaning yes" part also present in Western culture(the whole "she's just playing hard to get" thing)? Aside from the porn being much more disturbing, I'm not sure how that is simply a Japanese thing.

Zgarbas Wrote:Isn't the "woman saying no but secretly meaning yes" part also present in Western culture(the whole "she's just playing hard to get" thing)? Aside from the porn being much more disturbing, I'm not sure how that is simply a Japanese thing.

It's not just a Japanese thing, but gender relations in Japan are decades behind most of the west. It's one of the more striking differences. I really didn't understand what "rape culture," or patriarchy were about until I saw very clear extreme examples of it in Japan. It's less clear in the West in the modern day thanks to the various women's equality movements even though, admittedly, it still exists.

erlog Wrote:I apologize for the crude example, but there's really no more apparent example of these concepts within the culture.

That's an interesting observation. Then again, I suppose you could say that there's no greater satisfaction than to corrupt the pure and innocent which is common in most countries.

Another thing worth pointing out is that although it is claimed that Japan has a rape culture, their sex crime ratea (and crime in general) are lower than most other developed countries.

One last thing worth pointing out is that my friend's brother told me that a relatively large amount of internet real rape videos comes from Russia. I'm not sure whether their rape culture is bigger or smaller than Japan's though.

"Rape culture," doesn't just refer to the kind of rape you're referring to there. It refers to a sociological pattern wherein it is expected that sexual gratification is something contained within women to be unlocked by men via implicit or explicit force. This affects even situations where there is actually consent when it is expected of the woman that she will resist, and it is expected of the man that he will overpower her. They both can end up unwittingly acting out their roles within the rape culture because that is the expected pattern in gender relations.

The problem is that it doesn't just affect consenting adults acting out roles they find gratifying. It provides the perfect cover for actual rapes. You shouldn't trust those statistics you posted about rape in Japan. There are recent court cases filled with victim-blaming nonsense written by male judges about how the women in question totally deserved to be raped.

Rapes in Japan go unreported because it is not taken seriously as a crime. The woman will be told by the police that it was her fault, will be told or asked things like "boys will be boys," "why were you in that part of town?", "why did you drink alcohol?" and she will be discouraged from filing a police report.

erlog Wrote:It's one of the more striking differences. I really didn't understand what "rape culture," or patriarchy were about until I saw very clear extreme examples of it in Japan. It's less clear in the West in the modern day thanks to the various women's equality movements even though, admittedly, it still exists.

Hmm, that contradicts what I read on the internet though.

I thought Japanese men in general were effeminate shy "herbivores" at best while socially crippled NEETs at worst? While Japanese women are career driven individuals who are rejecting local Japanese manchilds and seeking more manly men abroad? How can otaku manchildren possibly have the ability to uphold the supposed patriarcal women-oppressing structure?

I'm not saying you or the internet is right or wrong because I don't know.

[Zgarbas]

Just because a certain stereotype is gaining attention doesn't mean it is the norm. According to wiki about 30-60%(depending on the age group) of surveyed men consider themselves as such, +about 1 million estimated Hikkikomoris in Japan. That still leaves a good few dozen million people out.

One of the first links google gives for "rape culture in japan".

qwertyytrewq Wrote:

erlog Wrote:It's one of the more striking differences. I really didn't understand what "rape culture," or patriarchy were about until I saw very clear extreme examples of it in Japan. It's less clear in the West in the modern day thanks to the various women's equality movements even though, admittedly, it still exists.

Hmm, that contradicts what I read on the internet though.

I thought Japanese men in general were effeminate shy "herbivores" at best while socially crippled NEETs at worst? While Japanese women are career driven individuals who are rejecting local Japanese manchilds and seeking more manly men abroad? How can otaku manchildren possibly have the ability to uphold the supposed patriarcal women-oppressing structure?

I'm not saying you or the internet is right or wrong because I don't know.

The key here is the comparison to foreign men. Foreign men in Japan are seen as rapist barbarians. So any comparison of Japanese men to that foreigner straw man will give the impression that Japanese men are "weak." You're also overestimating the number of otaku, and their impact on the overall Japanese culture.

The image you portray of Japanese women is an overreaction within Japanese culture to women in the workforce and the small amounts of progress that have been made. Compared to the very traditional gender rolls of the past, the modern Japanese woman is definitely viewed in the lens you described. However, when the situation is compared to the west, gender equality is still decades behind.

To go with this thread's theme, you're essentially delivering the 建前 while I'm discussing the 本音. I have no doubt that the Japanese themselves see it as you describe. I have read those same things too. It just doesn't stack up at all to what I've seen of the culture while living here.

erlog Wrote:This affects even situations where there is actually consent when it is expected of the woman that she will resist, and it is expected of the man that he will overpower her. They both can end up unwittingly acting out their roles within the rape culture because that is the expected pattern in gender relations.

So even under consent, rape is possible under the situation Well that sounds complicated so I'll let a rape expert to comment.

Quote:You shouldn't trust those statistics you posted about rape in Japan.

Since Japan supposedly has under reporting of rape due to the shameful social stigma of rape, then what makes it any different from other countries where the same social stigma exists? This is an argument I often hear.

Is there any evidence that rape statistics in Japan are any more or less faulty than other countries?

Quote:Rapes in Japan go unreported because it is not taken seriously as a crime.

Then what about women only train carriages?

On the other side of the fence, what about false reports of rape as depicted in the movie It Wasn't Me or was it I Didn't Do It (forgot original title).

Quote:The woman will be told by the police that it was her fault, will be told or asked things like "boys will be boys," "why were you in that part of town?", "why did you drink alcohol?" and she will be discouraged from filing a police report.

Sounds exactly like the same arguments I hear in Western countries. The events leading to Slut Walk ring a bell?

Zgarbas Wrote:Just because a certain stereotype is gaining attention doesn't mean it is the norm. According to wiki about 30-60%(depending on the age group) of surveyed men consider themselves as such, +about 1 million estimated Hikkikomoris in Japan. That still leaves a good few dozen million people out.

Perhaps I should blame the mainstream media for sensationalization of the insignificant then. That said, 30-60% is still a large number.

erlog Wrote:To go with this thread's theme, you're essentially delivering the 建前 while I'm discussing the 本音. I have no doubt that the Japanese themselves see it as you describe. I have read those same things too. It just doesn't stack up at all to what I've seen of the culture while living here.

Actually I'm not Japanese so I don't care about tatemae. In truth, I finished my Anki reviews for today and rewarding myself by letting off steam by forum posting in a contrarian style on controversial topics, and watching the results.

Don't get me wrong, I have absolutely no stake in the issue.

qwertyytrewq Wrote:So even under consent, rape is possible under the situation Well that sounds complicated so I'll let a rape expert to comment.

I didn't say that and you know it. I was describing how rape culture affects everyone.

qwertyytrewq Wrote:Is there any evidence that rape statistics in Japan are any more or less faulty than other countries?

Please read this article, and then again try to tell me it doesn't affect the gathering of statistics about rape in Japan.

http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/cross_fac/...sue1/gray/

qwertyytrewq Wrote:Then what about women only train carriages?

Most rape doesn't happen on trains. It tends to be coworkers, family members, friends, or acquaintances. Women-only train carriages are a decent step toward preventing the prevalent sexual assault on trains. It isn't a solution to the problem.

qwertyytrewq Wrote:On the other side of the fence, what about false reports of rape as depicted in the movie It Wasn't Me or was it I Didn't Do It (forgot original title).

I can play this game too. Show me statistics in Japan on false rape cases. I'll wait...

qwertyytrewq Wrote:In truth, I finished my Anki reviews for today and rewarding myself by letting off steam by forum posting in a contrarian style on controversial topics, and watching the results.

You're not being contrarian or clever. You're spouting misogynist talking points I've heard ad nauseum. The fact that you feel it's at all appropriate to play at being "contrarian" on this issue shows pretty clearly that you treat the issue of rape and misogyny lightly.

You are doing textbook concern trolling.

erlog Wrote:I didn't say that and you know it. I was describing how rape culture affects everyone.

Well as I said, the scenario you described sounds complicated. First you said there was consent and then it leads to "rape," and then they went to sleep without going to the police.

Quote:Please read this article

Thanks, I'll read it later.

Quote:It isn't a solution to the problem.

I guess the core problem is the supposed "rape culture"?

qwertyytrewq Wrote:I can play this game too. Show me statistics on false rape cases. I'll wait...

I would like to show you the statistics of false rape cases but unfortunately, false rape crime cases go underreported in Japan and isn't taken seriously as a crime.

qwertyytrewq Wrote:You're not being contrarian or clever. You're spouting misogynist talking points I've heard ad nauseum. The fact that you feel it's at all appropriate to play at being "contrarian" on this issue shows pretty clearly that you treat the issue of rape and misogyny lightly.

I wouldn't say I treat rape and misogyny lightly, but it could be said that I treat discussions about it lightly, especially on forums that aren't solely created for that topic (this is a Japanese language learning forum).

In any case, your criticisms of Japan is made on the basis that Japan has an arguably unique "rape culture" that leads to the problems, so I thought it would be interesting to challenge that assumption.

qwertyytrewq Wrote:

erlog Wrote:I didn't say that and you know it. I was describing how rape culture affects everyone.

Well as I said, the scenario you described sounds complicated. First you said there was consent and then it leads to "rape," and then they went to sleep without going to the police.

If a woman feels that society dictates she "resist" even when she is willing to have sex, that's an aspect of rape culture -- it doesn't mean the woman's being raped, that's not what erlog was saying at all.

本音　and 建前 are just concepts that exist in every culture but just happen to have words for them in Japanese. People are more or less the same everywhere.

Living in Japan I can't imagine thinking of it as a "rape culture" unless I had a serious feminist chip on my shoulder. If Japan is a "rape culture" then everywhere could be construed to be. I don't know how people come up with this kind of stuff...

dizmox Wrote:本音　and 建前 are just concepts that exist in every culture but just happen to have words for them in Japanese. People are more or less the same everywhere.

I'm so glad I'm not the only one who thinks this...

It's not true, though. Another great example besides 残業 is contract law in Japan.

Contract law in the west tends to only happen on one layer. It's seen as appropriate for both parties to refer to the contract in terms of working out a labor dispute. However, contracts in Japan are treated differently in practice. The contract is the 建前 with the actual working conditions and real terms being the undisclosed, but mutually understood, 本音. The employer in the case of the contract is, in practice, expected to hold lots of leeway in terms of things that are outside the contract or even directly against the contract.

In the western system it would be appropriate at that point for the worker to bring up the asymmetry between the actual duties and the stated contract. In Japan this is seen as inappropriate, and you will most certainly be fired, even if it would be in breach of their contract. Japanese employers do feel they have the 本音 right to entirely tear up the contract whenever they feel like no matter what it says, and frequently they get away with doing so thanks to a low likelihood of an employee ever being able to bring a lawsuit.

This paper describes a little bit of the situation, but you have to read it kind of carefully. Laws and regulations in Japan are 建前. Most disputes, even moreso than in other countries, are kept out of the legal system at all costs through the use of either bargaining or coercion.

Japan is known to not be litigious, and the reason Japan is not litigious is because of money that gets tossed around in order to handle private disputes or the wronged party giving up on filing a lawsuit. This money may be tossed around in order to save face, even if there's no legal or official obligation for a person or organization to do so. In the west we would call this extortion, but in Japan it's the way things operate. Victims of crime will frequently not go to the police if they can come to an agreement for apology money paid by the perpetrator themselves, the perpetrator's family, or the perpetrator's employer.

This website talks about some of these issues:
http://www.japanesestudies.org.uk/discus...shida.html

Individual people are very similar everywhere, but cultures as a whole can be and are different. 建前 and 本音 do kind of map on the surface to things that also exist in the west, but the degrees and differences are very striking.

The legal system exists as the 建前, and most disputes that would be handled in a legal fashion outside of Japan tend to be handled through the de facto 本音 customs that exist. Unfortunately, this means that wealth or might tends to make right, and justice in a lot of cases is not well-served. Also because these kinds of disputes happen off the books, it makes Japan's reported crime and litigation statistics unreliable since that's not where most conflict resolution happens in the Japanese system.

dizmox Wrote:If Japan is a "rape culture" then everywhere could be construed to be.

Yes, you have it right. It's certainly not confined to Japan.

Well, that's interesting. Re: "Japanese rape culture", Am I a misogynist or is the other person a feminist with a "chip on the shoulder"?

Whatever the case, I'll let the thread go to its original core topic as opposed to off topic.

You're a misogynist. It's not the first time you've popped up specifically to make misogynistic comments, it seems to be you who has a chip on your shoulder in this respect. Erlog's right, it's not entertaining.

IceCream Wrote:You're a misogynist. It's not the first time you've popped up specifically to make misogynistic comments, it seems to be you who has a chip on your shoulder in this respect. Erlog's right, it's not entertaining.

But is erlog correct that Japan has a rape culture?

yes.

Okay.

i find this thread very entertaining.

[Zgarbas]

Pretty much.