Hey!

Looking for some advice...

So I think I made pretty good progress in learning the language until maybe 2 months ago, when I finished my big 10000 vocab deck. But since then not a lot has happened. I wasn't lazy, but I don't feel I made any progress.

I've been listening to podcasts, read through 1/2 of the first Zero no Tsukaima novel, read a few manga, but I don't feel like my comprehension has improved.

So I'm basically looking for some advice on how to get from intermediate to advanced...

Thanks

How can you be so sure you're not making progress? We're not able to constantly feel the same rate of progression as we improve, because the more we learn, the more we move on to infrequent uses of the language.

When we start out, we start with the more common words and phrases, and being that they're common we obviously come across them often, making us really feel the progress.

As we move away from the most common stuff, we get into less and less common things as we go. You could be learning at the exact same pace, but since you're not coming across and getting a sense of confirmation of what you learn as much as you used to, you might simply not feel like you're learning as much as you did.

10.000 words is very good but have you studied grammar as well? I've found that the grammar used in Core sentences is not more than N4. I'm trying to improve my grammar by going through the Tobira textbook which is for abt. N3. My immediate goal is to finish it and start working on N2 grammar through either JLPT workbooks or maybe another texbook. I thought after I went through Core 6000, the grammar would be easier in comparison. But its just as complex in my opinion. Especially when you get these long sentances with lots of embedded clauses. Anyway my point is not to neglect grammar.

You're still probably making the same amount of progress if you are putting in the same amount of effort it just doesn't feel like it. If you are starting out at zero then one new "piece of knowledge" is a 100% increase from where you started but if you have 100 "pieces of knowledge" one new "piece" is only a 1% increase. If you have 10,000 pieces then you can guess that you're going to need a whole bunch of new "pieces" to feel like you're making any progress.

apirx Wrote:Hey!


I've been listening to podcasts, read through 1/2 of the first Zero no Tsukaima novel, read a few manga, but I don't feel like my comprehension has improved.

Then you haven't read or listened enough. A 1/2 of a novel, a few manga.......that's not enough.

Aim for 10 novels, 20 mangas....listen to more Japanese (not Learn Japanese podcasts, but real Japanese), then you'll improve a lot.

Yeah I agree, I wouldn't expect to feel the difference after two months with that amount.

Read more! Read read read

to the op, how long did it take you to get to 10,000 words? and what kind or resources did you use? I am ding core 6k which will get me to 6k but where did you get the other 4k from? are there any decent pre-made anki decks with vocab with a similar style to the core decks i.e. with pics and audio?

also what level is someone who finished core 6k considered? with no grammar or anything else done yet?


thanks

It might help to try for a JLPT. N2 or N1?

i think you need someone to speak with. try online dating if you can't find a gf/bf otherwise. it makes all the difference to actually get out there and use it vs. this hypothetical bookwork...

TwoMoreCharacters - Interesting video, it might just be that I'm spoiled by learning all these common words and hearing them constantly and now that grammar is probably what keeps me from understanding more progress feels slower.

PotbellyPig - I've neglected grammar for far too long, I did read through Tae Kim but only while I was already in Japan D:
So I think that's what mostly hinders my comprehension.

thistime - Yeah I am probably making progress... just doesn't feel like it... or just feels too slow

Realism - I'll take this as a challenge. I'll try to read a novel every month in the new year.

EasyJapanezy - It took me a little over a year. I started this deck around September '11. I got the 10k by merging a JLPT 1 vocab list with the core 6k, deleting duplicates and anything I thought was useless and adding a lot of vocab I encountered on the way. I have no idea what level I am at currently. I think my Japanese is pretty lopsided.. I have good understanding of kanji/vocab and on the other hand poor grammar/general comprehension.

Tzadeck - JLPT is only once a year in December where I live. So the next possibility would be in one year. Do you recommend any books to study for N2 or N1? I already learned all vocab from the JLPT 1 vocab list I found online, but I don't know where I'm at grammar wise.

dtcamero - You mean like... a Japanese gf/bf? I'm not living in Japan, so I don't think that's a realistic option.

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To someone who has poor understanding of grammar (only what's in Tae Kim mostly), but knows a lot of vocab, would you recommend just reading / listening a lot, or also to work through some sort of grammar book? I really only am interested in understanding Japanese at the moment, not worried about speaking too much.

Thanks for all the input guys/gals, I appreciate it a lot.

Well from what I've read through all the grammar books I've gotten I think if you worked your way through a particle book like, All about particles is a great one and also Understanding the difference between particles is a good follow up to that one that clears up some stuff. I've enjoyed what I've read so far from both and it really is helping. Also from what I've gotten from the forums and the fact that I got the books A dictionary of Basic/Intermediate/Advanced Japanese grammar seem to be the best bet for grammar. the three books are not too expensive and there are pre-made anki decks with the sentences and explanations. I'm guessing between the particles books the the DBJG series you should be all set to just stop treating Japanese as a L2 and improving it like you would your L1 i.e. just a lot of reading.

just my two cents, hope it helped

I learned a couple of languages (including English) by just reading, watching TV and listening to radio (regular books and media, no educational materials). Granted, that's not gonna happen with Japanese (because learning the writing system takes studying), but if Japanese was written with the Roman alphabet, that's definitely the only method I'd use. Unfortunately, the writing system is the one thing that's holding me back, so my tried and tested method isn't helping me.

Sound like your situation is the complete opposite of mine, so you should give my method a try.

Keep reading, thats all I can say. People don't understand it took years of reading in your first language for you to develop strong comprehension skills. The more you read, the more you'll comprehend, and the better you'll get. Its the same for developing listening skills. Just keep at it, and read read read read.

thistime Wrote:If you are starting out at zero then one new "piece of knowledge" is a 100% increase from where you started

Well, technically, it's an infinite % increase. And then it's 100% from 1 to 2.

Just keep doing what you are doing I am at the same stage. What I have done is create goals for myself every month. Right now, my too goals are to add 500 sentences to anki and listen to 100 hours of Japanese. This are nothing to extreme but I will slow increase them as the months go on. Try and not worry about the end result as long as you are doing something to better yourself. Easier say than done in my opinion I had to learn this the hard way.

I'm a huge fan of vocab decks (built mine to 18,000 before I stopped studying)... but... I think you did it wrong.

I mean it's a bit late now but you should have done grammar up to N2 level first and THEN done the 10k vocab. I did it that way and made insanely good progress. So yeah, definitely get your grammar up to speed and you'll notice a lot of improvement I think.

If you have 10,000 vocabulary then just read a lot. Read things you like. Read novels. The more you do the better you'll get..

This problem is precisely why I dislike pre-made decks. Anki and studying should be a byproduct of having so much Japanese material that you want to understand that you're forced to put it all into Anki and wind up with a huge deck when all's said and done. As a byproduct- not as a method.

As for JLPT- everyone seems to love 完全マスター but when I flipped through a couple of different books (including kanzen master) in a bookstore I decided I liked this one (http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/4471274910) better. Worked for meeee. (But I had read a good number of novels and newspapers and was in no-dictionary mode before I took the test.)

Go re-read something you had trouble with before (6Mo to a year ago).

Looking where you're going is daunting, looking where you are is discouraging, but look back and you'll see how far you've come.

Then just focus on reading. Most other skills are situation dependent, but you can read by yourself, for yourself, at your own pace, and it does your language learning brain no end of good.

mezbup Wrote:I mean it's a bit late now but you should have done grammar up to N2 level first and THEN done the 10k vocab. I did it that way and made insanely good progress. So yeah, definitely get your grammar up to speed and you'll notice a lot of improvement I think.

Can you recommend resources that could lead me up to that point of N2 level grammar?
And while learning that grammar, should I also be going for vocab decks, or just try to put all of the focus on the grammar?

drdunlap Wrote:If you have 10,000 vocabulary then just read a lot. Read things you like. Read novels. The more you do the better you'll get...

Reading: check. But what would be the counterpart of this plan for listening? NHK Easy is all fine and dandy, but there is only so much robotic-sounding news you can bear on a daily basis. And the same goes for fairy tales being read by a kindergarten teacher.

I've been doing the opposite: listening to things I don't like but can partly understand without having read a script first. In a way, it's more fun than ploughing through fun material of which I don't get even 5%. May I ask how you trained your listening?

i think listening to the audio from tv/movies you like and have already seen is a great way to train listening. i must have listened to the audio from inception over 200 times. (I ripped the audio and play it on my ipod when working/whatever)

you already basically know what's going on so it's comprehensible input, which really helps the finer points stick. I have 2 basic strategies for this:

1- I buy lots of western movies when in japan / at my local nyc bookoff, and rip the audio. Also you could just search fc video for audio of western movies and rip those.

2- I'll take the audio from my fav anime / dorama and it's a different effect, as I don't have the english version in my head already... but since I'm invested in it I know the plot already and know what's going on just from the audio.

now listening to this kind of audio is nice to work / do other things to because it's almost like watching a favorite movie in your mind, without needing to pay attention with your eyes... but it's also great passive immersion and will bear fruit if you try it. trust me!

Thanks for all responses, reviving this thread just to ask a question:

Since I've posted this on 15th December I've worked my way through the dictionaries of Japanese grammar, I've already got through Basic, Intermediate and am now at the end of the Advanced dictionary, srsing one example sentence per grammar point.

Now my question would be, is there still a lot of grammar to be covered, how exhaustive are the dictionaries, at what JLPT level do the dictionaries put me, grammar wise?

I also haven't disregarded the advice concerning reading, I'm currently reading my second light novel, clocking speeds at about 7 minutes per page (it feels sooo slow, I hope my speed improves soon). Now that I have some basic grasp of grammar I plan on just keeping up with srs reviews, but not too many, and reading as my primary method of studying.

Maybe someone has some information, maybe articles or something on rate of improvement in reading speed, I could use some encouragement. Recently had a good laugh, when I watched the first episode of the kokoro connect anime and they performed a scene which took me about 2 hours to read through in about 5 minutes, talking at the speed of lightning.

edit:

Just for clarifying, I'm asking for the JLPT level because I want to take the test in December, but am not sure what level to aim for. I think N2 would probably be possible for me, but maybe I could reach N1 within the next year? I don't know.

Adding to his questions about the grammar dics, is it recommended to read the books and then add some example sentences of eAch grammar point? Or just putthem straight to anki and forget the reading?