Stansfield123 Wrote:I disagree. In fact, even with great accuracy, the ease with which you're achieving that accuracy is still not meaningless.
The context of this statement has been skewed. It was stated that the accuracy is effectively meaningless in the initial period due to the usage of an SRS system which will essentially force those numbers to rise over time.
Quote:Like Heisig explains at the start of Chapter 30 or 31 (I forget which), reproducing the Kanji by remembering what primitives it's composed of is only the first step. The ultimate goal is to rely on visual/tactile memory to write them, without ever recalling the names of the primitives or that they have primitives at all.
Indeed... was it stated anywhere that this wasn't the case? In respect to my experience, I do no even remember the names of half the primitives involved. Their shapes, intimately, but their names, no.
Quote:The only way to get there is with practice (practice of writing the Kanji). You can practice in two ways: practice writing individual Kanji separately, or practice writing as you learn words and sentences.
There are more ways to practice, but for the sake of argument: okay.
Quote:If you pick the latter, you're doing two things at once every time you learn a new sentence: you're deconstructing sentences and words into Kanji, and you're deconstructing Kanji into primitives. The mental effort required to learn the writing of a sentence increases exponentially, compared to a situation where you can easily write the Kanji relying only on visual memory.
It was the case prior to completing RtK volume 1, at least in my experience. Going through the first twenty sentences of Tae Kim's Grammar guide took so very long to write out, and the kanji 友達、誰、親切、静か、高い etc. required multiple close viewings and checks to make sure I wrote them correctly- and this before even trying to remember readings!
Fortunately I completed RtK and these aren't an issue. Though, I must say: kanji is becoming a crutch. Many times in coming across a sentence wherein words which are usually rendered in kanji, have been written in hiragana, it takes much more mental effort to separate the sentence into different words and particles, instead of simply seeing the word in it's common kanji rendition and thinking "下さい" instead of reading "ください" and stopping to think for a fraction of time. Okay, poor example due to the simplicity, but I'm sure you get the point.
Quote:RtK serves to avoid that exponential increase in effort, by splitting up the task. By refusing to do the first step properly, you're defeating the purpose of doing that. You're arrogantly choosing to make it harder on yourself to learn.
I wasn't aware that the author of RtK wrote his original study notes in the back of that library with the intention of a spaced repetition system in mind... If you compare the two situations, I've probably "Reviewed the Kanji" more times than many in the past have used RtK (the volumes prior to the popularity of freeware and Anki) to "Remember the Kanji".
Though, I must say, how is putting two weeks aside to complete the initial reviewing of the kanji in RtK, with a few weeks of reviewing afterwards any more difficult than say, completing it in three to six months, or even a year, which most people do? Let's say, in some strange hypothetical universe, that I wake up and all of those neural pathways which have been re-shaped, created and re-enforced, during RtK and subsequent thousands of reviews, have all been "reset". I have already completed it in two weeks, and that was before I had a handle on how to use Anki properly.
So, two weeks- make it three, for error room:
Comparing those who take a year to complete, I can complete it roughly 17 times.
Comparing those who take six months to complete, I can complete it roughly 8 times.
Comparing those who take three months to complete, I can complete it roughly 4 times.
So... okay, if for whatever reason in my study at the moment I start to forget how to write kanji, or it becomes noticeably slower or difficult, or my ability to recognize the kanji dwindles... then I could stop everything and re-do RtK, then continue to study Japanese afterwards, while reviewing the kanji in Anki on the side.
Though, one of the reasons I stopped reviewing the kanji was because I was failing cards which I shouldn't have, not due to forgetting the kanji, but because of answering with kanji which were more accurate in respect to the original keyword. It would be wrong, then I would go "oh, of course, it's [insert kanji]" but what's the point of shifting from a reading which is more accurate to an English keyword which is less accurate, and not even in Japanese? Sure, I could simply change keywords to reflect accuracy and understanding as I see them, though I would rather come across the readings in context, where it makes more sense, than in isolation. Core is already efficient enough for basic vocab, and I believe all of the kanji from RtK are covered in the Core series.
Therefore it was a simply choice of sticking with something which was providing false errors or continue with something else which was providing real errors and increasing my understanding of Japanese at the same time. I took the later. Was it arrogant and inefficient? Well, you may think so, but the point it that I enjoy this more and if need be I can turn around and do RtK again, in one 17th of the time many people take to complete it (and, if done in a manner of divide and conquer, they probably aren't studying a whole lot of real Japanese in that time). Now that may have been an arrogant statement, lol.
Then again, who cares? If your going to put in the time and effort, see results, enjoy the process, and not be very humble about it, who cares? The only person it is effecting it me; the person putting the effort in. 90% of learning a language it time and consistent effort, and if this attitude helps sustaining motivation, then so be it. Just because I've done this in a certain manner does not mean anyone else has to follow. I'm not selling anything, not suggesting it will work for someone who isn't me, nor am I in any way responsible for the actions of anyone else.
Honestly, I don't see the problem. Nor do I see putting myself out there as a guinea pig and expanding on the results to be arrogant.
Quote:I am willing to bet that if you're not in Japan (meaning you're not surrounded by Japanese writing and forced to learn it in everyday life),
There are foreigners living in Japan and who have spent years in Japan without learning any more Japanese than any Joe can find by flipping through a phrasebook bought at any large bookshop throughout the world. Just because someone it placed in an environment does not mean they will adapt to it. This lack of adaptation to changing environments is one of the main reasons for many, many "human" problems, ranging from interpersonal mental problems all the way up to international warring state issues.
There are ways to "surround yourself" with what you want. Take a swing over to Danny Choo's Culture Japan website and read about how he came to learn Japanese before the rise of electronic SRS systems, all from a flat in England, living by himself with his mother.
Quote:and you stop reviewing and writing individual Kanji, you will fail in learning the writing system. It's just too hard to do sentences that way, and no amount of willpower will change that.
It's just too hard? I'm sure people were told that about walking on the moon, or carrying people through the air in objects larger than cars. There are kids who have to walk miles to get drinking water for their village in order to survive. Don't tell me learning the writing system is "just too hard" when it has been common practice in China
for children to learn there own writing system (which has thousands MORE kanji than Japanese) primarily by ROTE.
There are much more difficult things most people have to do everyday throughout their life. Most without even having the time to stop and ponder the propensity of it all. Tell a single mother of two young boys that it's "just too hard" to raise them on her own, complete with work and schooling.
We're already learning Japanese faster and easier than most people; than most Japanese learn there own writing system. To say it's simply "just too hard" is a cop out. I'm sure completing RtK in 14 days, with a retention rate at around 80% is also "just too hard", but I did it.
Quote:My advice would be to immediately resume reviewing the Kanji. If you do, it will eventually make learning vocabulary a lot easier than it is now.
I am reviewing the kanji. Everyday. In context. The main problem was that the new vocab I was learning was conflicting with the English keywords. At the moment I am some 557 cards into the 4000 cards of the Core2000 Anki deck, in two days of study, without around an 80% retention rate. Rather content with that.
Could you explain how continuing to review English keywords/Kanji will help differentiate these kanji readings:
閉まる
閉じる
閉める
起こる
起きる
起こす
without further context? To get the most out of RtK I have found that at least in my experience you need to press on into the waters which have borne the kanji to our shores.
"knowing" certain single meanings of common kanji readings is helpful but unless you know the readings, you're still going to be essentially illiterate. While this isn't the point of RtK; creating a bond between kanji, readings, Japanese vocabulary and concept provides more connections for visual memory to aid recalling kanji. This is too much for the beginner who isn't able to tell the kanji apart, let alone notice familiar elements in kanji groups, or be able to write the kanji out. Though, once completing RtK, these should be now common knowledge to the individual. Or it is at least to me, my only point of comparison.
