What do you think should be in The Ultimate Book that shall make kanji learning easier?
In case you have tried a variety of different methods please do share your views on this.

I am posting this for another reason. Some months back when I was in a serious "lets study kanji" bout I came across something either a book or website that showed very similar kanji together so a person is much better able to learn their differences. Perhaps it was an ebook and I was in the appendix, perhaps it was something else. hmmmm

I am looking for a book (a book that can be bought is preferred) that lists kanji (of the jouyou kanji of course) in such a way that similar kanji are grouped together e.g the 王、主　と　注, you get the idea right?
What is the best book/resource to use for this? Any ideas ??

I'm not exactly an RTK fanboy, since I'm not sure how much it ultimately compares to other kanji learning methods, but when it comes to getting good at distinguishing between kanji that seem very similar at first glance, isn't RTK where it's at?

Sorry, I don't know a book that has what you're looking for.

Doesn't the Kodansha Kanji Learner's Dictionary group kanji by similar shape?

I'm confused about this thread.
I thought matrixofdynamism finished RTK a long time ago.

Is someone else posting as matrixofdynamism?

matrixofdynamism, are you referring to learning and remembering the 音読み and 訓読み or "Remembering the Kanji", ala "RtK" style?

I have not finished RTK since I never started it. I have been using flash cards.
I just need a good reference book that will help me remember the distinctions. Because as time passes it become much harder to differentiate between similar kanji.

Hm, a reference book is something like Kanji and Kana or Guide to Reading and Writing Japanese, it's something that will show you the distinctions, but in no way will it help you remember them in the way Remembering The Kanji does. I've never heard of a book who does the grouping you put as example (for traditionaly 王 and 主　each have their own group, and 注 goes under the water radical...), although http://pyrosphere.net/japanese/ has a somewhat similar search function by shape/radical. The closest bet for the kind of ordering you want is probably RTK.

matrixofdynamism Wrote:I have not finished RTK since I never started it. I have been using flash cards.
I just need a good reference book that will help me remember the distinctions. Because as time passes it become much harder to differentiate between similar kanji.

If you want to physically distinguish between different kanji, then why not give RtK a go? I started and completed it in two weeks and even the often really small fonts used on the internet such as in the tag lines under websites in Google's search results aren't a great issue. While I may be not entirely confident in writing the kanji out, I am pretty confident in primarily what it is made of. Blow it up to something with a larger font (say, something used in a manga or other larger font medium) and even if the kanji isn't one of the government issue common usage kanji, changes are with a glance or two I am aware of the "radicals" involved and it would probably take made a few seconds to write it out.

Take into account I'm not a fast learner, nor is my memory reliable (as me what I did last Tuesday and I wouldn't be able to remember whether I did [insert event] on said weekday past or whether it was done on the adjacent days or their extended neighbourhood. Long story short: my memory is crap and within two weeks of reading and reviewing RtK, writing out any kanji- any kanji, isn't an issue. There are no more or less "hard" or "easy" kanji- some just take a little more time to write out or have to be squeezed tighter together to fit in a standard manuscript grid square.

The fact that many Japanese find so many kanji "challenging" to write, due to learning it in a later school year, is testament to how inefficient the standardized method of kanji learning is. If you're going to use a text-book or something in a similar fashion to learn kanji, do yourself a favour and make sure it doesn't mimic the 常用漢字 grading system (a lot of courses and text-books tend to steer towards this)- that is unless you want to take years longer to learn kanji than you have to.


EDIT:

matrixofdynamism Wrote:I am looking for a book (a book that can be bought is preferred) that lists kanji (of the jouyou kanji of course) in such a way that similar kanji are grouped together e.g the 王、主　と　注, you get the idea right?

RtK doesn't group these similar kanji together in such a way but to be honest these kanji look if anything only vaguely similar to me. Before opening (the pdf.) of RtK, sure; these kanji would have look very similar (aside from と) but now their differences seem to stick out like... er... things that stick out. It's almost as though I see 王 and 主 as though the one on the left were a lot taller than the one on the right is wider... and a different colour, and instantly my brain made the mental connection of "Right: king/おう" -"Left: Lord/Lord with a 鳥 on his head". Getting them mixed up to me would feel like getting the English words "bum" and "bam" confused.

Though this is all purely anecdotal. Results vary for individuals.

A scholar of kanji could categorize the characters not just by their shape, but by situation, meaning, or shape. This is precisely what Joseph de Roo does in his masterpiece "2001 Kanji."

In the introduction, the author describes the intent of the book:

"This book is intended for the beginner who encounters a kanji and wants to look it up, knowing neither its radical, pronunciation, nor its exact number of strokes. The method consists of looking at the top of the kanji, and then at its bottom, disregarding its other parts."

Each kanji in the book has its ON-readings and/or kun-readings listed, and is

"...analyzed and explained according to the two principles which governed the writing system from its beginnings throughout its later modifications:

1. Graphemes and kanji evoke specific SITUATIONS from which meanings and connotations are drawn.
2. The situation, rather than the meaning, is often dominant when one kanji is part of another.

Graphemes are minimal parts of meaning. Many are simply kanji, others just building blocks. Their meaning is constant even when some graphemes take on a different shape (allograph) for practical writing purposes. Occasionally a modified grapheme expresses a different idea related to its original meaning.

The cross-references will help you to create groups of kanji which are related in situation, meaning or shape. The groups of the same situational background will reveal definite patterns of thinking. These patterns are of prime importance in gaining some insight into the world of kanji. Some kanji are inevitably culture-bound... the great majority are universally human!"

Whether or not de Roo's approach is the best way to learn kanji is certainly debatable, but I believe his approach offers a deep analysis of kanji and their interrelationships.

matrixofdynamism Wrote:I have not finished RTK since I never started it. I have been using flash cards.
I just need a good reference book that will help me remember the distinctions. Because as time passes it become much harder to differentiate between similar kanji.

Well then, I'd recommend trying RTK.
Finish it in 1-3 months and you'll never have to worry about similar looking kanji.
Get it done and over it if you can. Otherwise, you'll just be spending more time looking
for another kanji method.

If it turns out RTK is not for you, then you're on your own.
I haven't come across any other kanji methods that are as effective.

Just be aware of diminishing returns.

For most methods/books, the first 300 or so kanji will be deceptively easy.
That's because all the kanji look different.

But when you get to 800-1200 kanji, a lot of kanji are going to use similar
radicals and everything will be hard to distinguish. That's when it'll get tougher.

RTK avoids this problem with it's cumulative order of kanji and radicals/primitives.

Anyway, I think it's worth at least trying.
Makes no sense to give up on RTK before even trying.