I just peeked into DoAJG and knew why I didn't peek in it for such a while. How can you folks memorise all these differences? Every entry has a long "Reference" (explaining the difference between two expressions being the same in meaning) page explaining the correct usages with so many "If affirmative, then X can only be used with Y if..." conditions. I'm quite desperate >_<

When it comes to understanding what the expressions mean, I have no such issues, but when it comes to output I feel terribly lost. How are you feeling about this one?

Practice.

I probably suck at this too, but I tend to just do the output, then correct it as I go along and discover new nuances to usage, etc.

Gotta start somewhere.

Try looking at grammar as something that helps you to translate sentences, more like a reference guide. Don't try to memorize it, that won't give you the kind of understanding you want. Maybe memorize or study the example sentences, but not the rules. You need intuitive understanding, not rational understanding.

But again, it's useful for translating things you don't understand.

I mean, I understand it, but I cannot memorise the syntax (or how is that called?) properly very often when it comes to this level of grammar.

e.g. 今になって VS いまさら

So, basically you're saying you're having trouble "memorizing" connotations, nuances and the like, am I right? If I understand correctly, the problem you're having is this: If you don't fully understand finer differences between similar words and phrases, often the time you can still follow what a native speaker's saying because you have context to infer the intended meaning. But without mastering finer points, you can't express yourself correctly and efficiently because the wrong expression carries a slightly different meaning than what you intended. So you feel like your output sucks compared to your passive skills like listening and reading. But you're overwhelmed by the sheer amount of explanations of the differences that are subtle to nonnative speakers but are clear to native speakers.

If this is the case, you don't need to do anything about it. Just see language acquisition the other way around. You don't learn a language from reading up on minute differences. It's more like you read an explanation and you go, "Ooh, that's genius. This word works just like this explanation." But you're also like, "But wait. You say,'XXX' if you're in a situation like YYY. You also say 'ZZZ,' and this is definitely what a native speaker would say. Hmm. These examples don't follow the explanation." So, you should be able to feel what's grammatical and what's not, and you should be able to come up with some exceptions to general rules on your own.

If you're wondering how you can develop such intuition, read the first paragraph of this post again. When you communicate with native speakers, often the contextual clue you need to infer subtler differences is right there. Of course, context is not always enough, and you may get it wrong. But as long as you have a solid foundation, you should be able to correctly guess the intended meaning often enough. So with a large amount of input, you'll eventually figure out those elusive grammar points, often unconsciously but sometimes consciously. So even if you're really proficient in a language, you may not be able to verbally explain all the grammar points in a sentence you understand. But you're sure your interpretation is correct.

With that all said, reading explanations may help your learning as well because that way you know what you should look for. It may be necessary to achieve really high proficiency; even native speakers need education to polish their mother tongues. But that's optional and not essential. So, stop treating explanations as an extremely important learning tool because they're not. You don't need to memorize them. They may help a bit, but not much.

By the way, I'm not sure if translation helps a lot when it comes to output. I've done absolutely zero translation in my head to write this post. At least there was no conscious translation. If anything, I'd have trouble translating this post into my native language. Of course, your brain may function a bit differently than mine because you were already multilingual when you were a kid and said you hear translation when you listen to someone speaking in your second language, which to me was very surprising and nearly unbelievable. But I kind of feel like translation doesn't work well if two languages are drastically different and you're learning a foreign language as an adult.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure you'll be speaking Japanese fluently before you know it as long as you don't quit. So just relax and have fun.

^ What magamo said.
You don't learn to bend a language to your will by reading about how to bend it to your will. You learn how to bend a language to your will by existing in it long enough that it becomes a part of you. Just keep going! :] (And input input input input input!)

I guess it's true that sometimes you can't just pull out all the meaning you need from context and input alone. My secret was to read explanations of tricksy grammar in Japanese and THEN see that grammar used a million times.
But it seems that you're worried about nuance and that problem can only be cured by getting used to it.

Zlarp Wrote:Maybe memorize or study the example sentences, but not the rules. You need intuitive understanding, not rational understanding.

This works really well for me. If you're going to memorize anything at all, memorize example sentences using that grammar pattern.

Also, keep in mind that you don't need to actively use "advanced" (N1) grammar patterns that often. Just make sure you understand them when you hear/read them. Memorizing an example sentence using them is often more than enough for this.

To the people saying translation isn't important: I technically agree with this, but sometimes when you read or hear something it seems really important and you'll want to understand it *right now* and become frustrated. That's when I resort to explicit grammar and dictionary lookups to satisfy my curiosity. I don't do it often, but I find it good to have the option because it reassures me that I won't be missing anything vital to my enjoyment of a text.

(I think I'm good enough by now to be able to discern when something is vital and when it isn't, but that's an intuition thing. I don't know if this part works the same way for other people, but I know something's important when my brain starts telling me "I really, really want to know what this means!")

Zlarp Wrote:To the people saying translation isn't important: I technically agree with this, but sometimes when you read or hear something it seems really important and you'll want to understand it *right now* and become frustrated. That's when I resort to explicit grammar and dictionary lookups to satisfy my curiosity. I don't do it often, but I find it good to have the option because it reassures me that I won't be missing anything vital to my enjoyment of a text.

(I think I'm good enough by now to be able to discern when something is vital and when it isn't, but that's an intuition thing. I don't know if this part works the same way for other people, but I know something's important when my brain starts telling me "I really, really want to know what this means!")

I really, really understand what you mean here. Quite often, if I am watching an anime, for example, I will hear a line and have an intuitive "feel" for what was said, but there is a little tingle in the back of my mind which wants to "understand it" in the same sense in which I understand this English language. This often means I find myself translating in my head what the phrase would mean in English, and find myself falling behind the conversation.

I know it will take much more time, input and time, and input, and a little more on top of that, before Japanese stops becoming something "I want to understand in English", but it's a little frustrating sometimes. The whole being an adult and understanding the world (as little as I do) as an adult is difficult when dealing with a second language, as a lot of the process is (in my opinion) impeded by the lack of "letting go" of acute temporary comprehension in favour of a more child-like acceptance and moving on to the next thing.

The fact that there are so many people on these forums alone whom speak multiple languages blows my mind.

I think you're making a mistake by idolizing the "child-like acceptance" a bit too much. You're giving yourself too little credit. You're an adult, you know stuff, you're smarter than a little kid. Your adult perceptions can of course hinder you, but only if you let them. Translating things in your head isn't inherently bad, neither is it inherently good. What matters if how and why you do it.

Think of all the things your conscious perception of the language helped you with: You found Anki by yourself. You did RTK by yourself. You got your hands on ridiculous amounts of media all by yourself. You can understand concepts that are "difficult" for children without much bother because you alread have some knots in your brain that are very similar, so you don't need to learn it from scratch. Do you think a child can do that?

And as you already noticed, you do have that "tingling", that intuitive understanding, already knocking at the back door of your mind. You still have that, even though you're an adult. You don't need to pine for what you already have. The reason why we think that as children we used to be much better at this because we don't actually remember what it was like (how can you remember something if you don't have language? People will cite visual memory, but in my opinion you can't have visual memory without having concepts to attach what you see to. Look at those people who used to be blind from birth and were treated as adults - they can't use their vision and often commit suicide because they don't have their brain set up to deal with what they see) - errm, sorry, tangent.

The reason why we think we were much better as children is because as children we didn't have a concept of the need of making progress. We were slow as hell acquiring our language and we sucked really, really badly at the beginning.

What I'm trying to say is children are stupid, I think. I can try to ramble on about my ideas all I want, but I think it works better in my brain than in text, so I'll just end it with this

One thing you should also not forget is that it's easy to think you understand something when you actually don't. You can misinterpret a surprising amount of a text or show and still make general sense of it. So don't discard the dictionaries and grammar books completely just because you think you're getting the hang of it.

I've been watching a subtitled anime series, and while the subtitles are mostly OK, there are some patterns that the translator consistently gets wrong -- one of the big ones is Xといい. This means "I hope that X", "It would be nice if X", etc. But the translator, every time, translates it as "X is good" or "It's Xing well" (i.e. "it's working well" rather than "I hope this works"). That is, he's not picking up on the difference between Xはいい and Xといい.

Zlarp Wrote:<snip>

"Child-like" was probably a poor choice of words. That aside, I agree with more or less everything in your post. What I probably should have stated was not "child-like" but more of a willingness to accept understanding, throwing random numbers out here: 80% of a conversation as opposed to 100% of one small segment of the overall conversation.

The whole "idolizing" of learning "like children" is, I've noticed, rather rampart on self-language learning sites, specifically those focused on a single author acting as a "teacher" or "guru" passing on his or her "secrets and shortcuts to fluency". A few months ago it would have seemed appealing but to be honest, after putting in the hours and getting into a study pattern, a lot of those sentiments seem to be somewhat like net of clover concealing a spear pit.

yudantaiteki Wrote:One thing you should also not forget is that it's easy to think you understand something when you actually don't.

This is something I've always been a little paranoid about, to be honest. Fortunately I lack the self-confidence to think that I honestly understanding something as I would in English, though at which point do I accept the lack of understanding and move on or continue to seek further definition? This probably isn't a true dichotomy of the situation at hand.

Though I am nowhere near the stage where I could be content with my limited experience with the language, it is a sense of doubt with lingers in the back of my mind. Often to the point of seeking different resources for references of simple translations of basic grammatically example sentences, etc. to see how the meaning has been rendered by different authors. In six months or a year from now I suppose I will know whether it was a decent choice or whether I could have progressed further.

Don't worry so much about the understanding, it sounds like it must be scary in your head

I probably understand only 80% of what people say in my native language, probably even less in English, since I've acquired that one later in life, even though I consider myself rather proficient at it. If I sat down right now and tried to understand what I just wrote, I'd have a giant headache afterwards. Let's make the exercise, shall we?


"Don't worry so much about" - okay, I get it, that's a set expression. Good start! I am telling someone not to worry, meaning they shouldn't think too much about it. I don't really quite understand the word "worry", though. I've seen it in many different contexts... hmm... Anyway, I think I get the jist.

"the understanding" - can you even say that? "the understanding"? I think this only works if there has been previous context given, though I could see myself writing an article and starting off with this sentence. I don't really get the grammar of this. Did I nounify it? Eh? No clue, honest.

"it sounds like it must be scary in your head " - what am I refering to here? "in your head" is kind of a metaphor for thoughts, but... well, it's different. I don't know how to explain it. It has connotations of... sanity... or... something? going with it?... hmm...


Anyway, enough of this nonsense, you obviously see what I'm getting at. I'm picking apart every single little thing here, but I'm just trying to show you how little I (and hopefully others, because if everyone else totally gets these things I must be way behind the curve) actually understand.

Now, when I read Japanese, it's more obvious because of the glaring problem of never having seen the words before and not being used to them. Whether or not I "understand" them any better, though, is up for debate (a debate that would probably begin by defining the term "understand)

Another thing with Japanese is that since I'm just starting out, I'm a lot slower. This means that I'm actually looking at the sentences closer and for a longer amount of time. I think it's similar to the effect of saying a word again and again and the more you say it the more it loses its meaning. The more you split up the parts in a sentence and try to grasp every one, the more clear it gets how little you understand, it's just that in our native languages we've gotten so used to this that it doesn't bother us anymore.

- That or I'm full of crap. I dunno. I'm really just rambling. Please don't look at this as a strongly held opinion of mine or anything, I'll probably be spouting the complete opposite tomorrow

Zlarp Wrote:"Don't worry so much about" - okay, I get it, that's a set expression. Good start! I am telling someone not to worry, meaning they shouldn't think too much about it. I don't really quite understand the word "worry", though. I've seen it in many different contexts... hmm... Anyway, I think I get the jist.

"the understanding" - can you even say that? "the understanding"? I think this only works if there has been previous context given, though I could see myself writing an article and starting off with this sentence. I don't really get the grammar of this. Did I nounify it? Eh? No clue, honest.

"it sounds like it must be scary in your head " - what am I refering to here? "in your head" is kind of a metaphor for thoughts, but... well, it's different. I don't know how to explain it. It has connotations of... sanity... or... something? going with it?... hmm...

I see what you are saying here. I suppose understanding is something I meant ideally from an epistemological point of view, beyond semantics, based on a set of axioms in which there are certain "things" we assume that another person understands in a similar experiential manner. Sort of an "unspoken" understanding. Though I rather stay clear of meta discussions of, well... discussion. There's already porn all over the internet for masturbation, right? lol

[sidetrack] Though, you weren't really far off with "it sounds like it must be scary in your head ". Having bi-polar disorder myself, along with a string of strange social phobias and esteem issues; inside my head can be a little scary at times. Maybe it's because of this that I've always been drawn to language, and it's many enticing and amusing oddities. Or maybe not. Might be an interesting focus of scientific inquiry in the neurological department. Though maybe it's old-hat nowadays. Are lobotomies still the most effective treatment for the removal of madness [/sidetrack]

Quote:Anyway, enough of this nonsense, you obviously see what I'm getting at. I'm picking apart every single little thing here, but I'm just trying to show you how little I (and hopefully others, because if everyone else totally gets these things I must be way behind the curve) actually understand.

See above. Highlighting the absurdity in understanding each other through spoken/written words, in a sense. There are many absurd things in life, I guess, which is what makes it sweet. Only so long as they are not pondered upon in too great detail, as you have explained above. Causes the brain to rot. lol.

Quote:<snip>

- That or I'm full of crap. I dunno. I'm really just rambling. Please don't look at this as a strongly held opinion of mine or anything, I'll probably be spouting the complete opposite tomorrow

It's a pretty interesting point of discussion. Regardless of whether your opinions may change rapidly. Neigh, because of the opportunity of a changing position, makes it even more interesting to have it out there for reflection. The reflection of who? Who knows; everyone and no one is reading this right now; and someone likely tucked away in a location hidden behind two unnecessary proxy servers and an extra layer of tinfoil. lol. ^_-

I'm too paranoid to use proxy servers. I mean, I don't know the people who offer them! They could do anything with my data!

Ahem...

And just to share some comraderie: I have my fair share of social phobias and oddities as well, though luckily the bipolarness passed me by (I think?). As for lobotomies curing madness... I think they invented guillotines first and those are more effective (though I didn't wiki it, so who knows, maybe the Greeks cut open each other's heads too, but I doubt it, looking at the weirdass way they practiced "medicine"... not that lobotomies aren't "weirdass medicine", of course)

---

Anyway, I think something I was trying to say pretty much went under in all my rambling. I think that the way I don't understand my own language and the way in which I don't understand Japanese are quite literally the same thing. I didn't pick apart these details just to start some discussion that would end up in two different definitions of the term "understand" where one definition would be the way we don't understand our native language and the other would be the way we understand don't understand a foreign language.

I have conflicting thoughts on the "feeling of understanding" that we have of language and what it actually "is". (Nooo, not Heidegger! I still haven't read that, keep it away! Keep it away!)

My two hypotheses (though I probably have more, maybe? I'm making this up as I go along here):

1: All of language is nothing but rote learning and repeating what one heard. There is no creativity in language. Everything one says or writes is merely a combination of what came before, what one heard in certain situations and the context one happened upon them. There is no actual meaning anywhere, it's all mechanics, doing what we do because it works, imitation.

2: Language is the building block of consciousness and the reason why we don't remember our earliest years is because we haven't yet learned to think. The meaning of language is created by building uncountable amounts of neural pathways and is connected to everything we've ever seen or done, or heard. The more one learns, the more these meanings are solidified, the stronger and deeper they become, the more varied and complex they will be. Language therefore is infinitely creative and infinite meaning can be found in it.

- Now, you see, that's how I approach pretty much all the things that I think about (though not explicitly, that would be dumb). Whenever I try to figure something out, I end up with two completely opposite seeming trains of thought like these. And as always, they're both mutually exclusive and don't hold up to reality in the end. (1: How could language ever actually appear in the first place if nobody created it? 2: This is dumb. A rock is a rock and if I hit you with it you die and no amount of language is going to change that reality - the true meaning)

Now I have two options: I can go bipolar (hey, yay, I'm relevant, look at me!) and sort of swing back between these two. One day I'll believe everything has been done before, nothing I say has any meaning and what's the point anyway? - The other I'll be filled with - what, an inner fire? Please excuse the cheesiness of expression - and create meaning wherever I go and everything is awesome.

The other option is to do what I do, and it might be even more psychotic than being bipolar - I simply believe both of these things at the same time. I know it's a paradox, but then, it's not any more stupid than light being both a wave and a particle at the same time. The universe was created (*and* spontaneously came into existence in a way that doesn't make sense, so why should I?

...

I think everyone but uisukii probably stopped reading this by now because I'm sure I stopped making sense quite a long while ago.

Anyway, enough with this... mmmh...

- Oh, one more thing: there might be a lot of porn on the internet, but: "This is my porn. There are many like it, but this one is mine."

@magamo: I went through some serious bullying stuff at kindergarten, because of my terrible accent I had as a child (in particular because of the "r" sound which is completely different in German and Russian), so I had to pick up German quickly during my childhood going to kindergarten.

Today, I realised it's not only the difference between expression I don't seem to get (向け・向き do have a difference that is not even that difficult to explain but it - for god's sake! - doesn't stick to my mind. I always have to look up and this is tiring the hell out of me), but also the differences between words, e.g. なじむ・慣れる, that have an identical meaning. I feel using monolingual definitions on my anki cards might be extremely beneficial, but how to implement them? Any ideas?

I think my expectancies are just too high when it comes to language acquisition orz

Tori-kun Wrote:I feel using monolingual definitions on my anki cards might be extremely beneficial, but how to implement them? Any ideas?

I have both a vocab word and an example sentence on the front of all my cards. On the back I have both a Japanese definition and an English translation. I feel this works really well. The English translation gives you something easy to memorize, while the example sentence and Japanese definition give you the necessary context.

@partner: Same here, but I tend to skip reading the Japanese definition sometimes