みなさん、こんにちは、
Since I'm preparing for the JLPT N5 test, I am using Tanki Master N5 to get an idea of how the test is organised. However, I came across one grammatical issue that leaves me a bit puzzled since I cannot find it in Tae Kim's guide.

What is the difference between:

今朝、食べないで学校へ行きました

And

今朝、食べなくて学校へ行きました

I thought the verbal ending ~ないで is only used in negative commands/requests, but in the Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar I found that it can also be used to express "without" as in "without eating".
The Tanki Master assumes we know this, but this specific grammar is not listed in Tae Kim's grammar, is it? How do we analyse this particular use of ~ないで?

nilfisq Wrote:今朝、食べないで学校へ行きました

I went to school without eating.

Quote:And

今朝、食べなくて学校へ行きました

I didn't eat, then (or instead) I went to school. (I think this sentence is very unlikely. The construction usually expresses "instead" in my experience -- the few genuine examples I found on google for the phrase "食べなくて学校" were all expressing the idea of "Rather than eating at home, I usually [get food somehow] at school")

The ないで construction implies that eating is something you would normally do or are expected to do, etc.

As an addition, I don't know if this appears on N5, but ないで can be replaced by ずに with no change in meaning, except in the negative command form. Both are used in speech.

I'm copping out here in a sense because I don't really know how to describe the nuances, but assuming you're wanting to say that you went to school without having eaten, it's a lot clearer to write

今朝、食べずに学校へ行きました。

appending the suffix 'zuni' to the end of a verb gives the sense of doing something *without doing/having* done ....

******
Beat to the pulse by Yuudantaiteki haha

This is the question as it shows up in the book:

けさ わたしは あさごはんを ( ) しごとに 行きました。
1. 食べませんで
2. 食べた
3. 食べないで
4. 食べなかった

So far I hadn't seen (食べ)ないで used like this. I thought you just used it to express a negative request.

squarezebra Wrote:I'm copping out here in a sense because I don't really know how to describe the nuances, but assuming you're wanting to say that you went to school without having eaten, it's a lot clearer to write

今朝、食べずに学校へ行きました。

appending the suffix 'zuni' to the end of a verb gives the sense of doing something *without doing/having* done ....

I don't think ずに is "a lot clearer" than ないで; they both mean the same thing and are both used. (And saying that you append it "to the end of a verb" is a little unclear too; you use the same conjugation you would normally add ない to and add ず + に instead.)

nilfisq: Does it make more sense now?

yudantaiteki Wrote:you use the same conjugation you would normally add ない to and add ず + に instead.)

I meant that, but I take your point that that isn't what I actually wrote. I'm not all that great at explaining stuff : /

That only real reason i said that zuni is clearer (and clearer is the wrong word I'm sure) is because I can't actually think of any context in which V-zuni means anything other than 'without doing / without having' etc. In the context of his example, I stand corrected in that zuni and naide don't differ at all, and are both as clear as one another. However, to my knowledge, although zuni can always be replaced by naide, I don't think you can always replace naide with zuni.

Please correct me if I'm wrong though ... I often miss these smaller details

The meaning is clear to me. However, I still don't understand why ~ないで is used. Apparently the JLPT people list this as basic grammar (N5) but I never saw it used like this in text books/Tae Kim, except for the Basic Dictionary of Japanese Grammar. Is it some kind of instrumental use of で?

I think the explanation of the DOBJG is pretty clear:
- ~ないで is the negative te-form of a verb, ie a progressive negated (p271)
- ~なくて is the te-form of nai, ie a non-action in te-form (p279), and is used to expressed cause (p273), which isn't the case here.

～ないで : "without" (something which would have been done under normal circumstances has been omitted)

～なくて : "didn't ~ and..." (the non-occurrence leads to some result/consequence)

In this sense ～ず is equivalent to ～なくて and ～ずに to ～ないで

Edit: Just to clarify, I wrote "leads to" but this doesn't necessarily mean "causes". ～なくて implies a connection but it's not very specific on what kind of connection. Generally, what follows is either a result or an alternate action.

nilfisq Wrote:The meaning is clear to me. However, I still don't understand why ~ないで is used. Apparently the JLPT people list this as basic grammar (N5) but I never saw it used like this in text books/Tae Kim, except for the Basic Dictionary of Japanese Grammar. Is it some kind of instrumental use of で?

It's a pretty basic grammar pattern so it doesn't surprise me that it's on N5, although it could probably be on N4 as well. I don't know about Tae Kim so I'm not sure why he doesn't discuss it.

well, thanks for your explanations; I won't forget this construction any more :-)

Edit:
Tae Kim replied on his Facebook Page. He does mention this use of ~ないで (in the Special Expressions section):
http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/gra...tiveverbs2