I have been studying Japanese for all of 3 months, whilst trying to keep my unanswered questions at a minimum. I failed, to say the least. So here are a bunch of questions that remain largely unanswered to me, some of which I am sure have been asked before, so I apologize in advance:

When is a good time to begin sentence mining? Most say "When you feel ready.", but that's kind of an abstract answer for someone with literally no point of reference (After all, what is 'ready'? How do we define 'ready'?).

I have studied and memorized close to 3,000 general-use kanji (+kana), yet I still feel like I know very little about the overall sentence structure. This can make judging candidate sentences for my deck a surprisingly difficult thing to do; thus, exposing the gap in my knowledge. I come before you to ask how to close this gap :] Everyone is different, but I'm all about efficiency, and I really don't want to overexert myself by resorting to memorizing complex sentences that make very little sense... It basically takes a fun process, and transforms it into something dry and monotonous. I can read through articles and bump into familiar friends along the way, but I'm not really 'gaining' anything from it, because my comprehension is very, very low.

(Side question I just thought of: Is the point of sentence mining to memorize the phrases? Or just gain exposure to the underlying concepts- be they grammatical, vocab, etc.)

The logical choice here seems to be to stick with smaller (2 to 3 word) sentences, and expand from there once I have formed a base-understanding of the language- at which point, hopefully, the larger sentences will be something that manifest themselves more naturally within my understanding. The problem with this is that I currently only understand 1 out of 3 words in the 3 word sentences. Memorizing 2/3 of a sentence is precisely what I said I am trying to avoid. This says to me that I'm not yet ready for sentence mining. What are some steps I could take to broaden my vocabulary well enough to make this process/transition smoother?


Tons of questions here, but the reason I ask all of this is because I plan on applying this SRS 'sentence mining' method to my Russian as well, so any advice, input, personal experiences, etc. are welcome.

You need GRAMMAR.


For abslolute beginners, plain English, line-by-line audio, kanji-kana-English.doc + links to offline audio
http://users.bestweb.net/~siom/martian_mountain/JCP/
J 00 Hugo Japanese In Three Months.7z
enhanced edition

Visualizing Japanese Grammar
http://www.gwu.edu/~eall/vjg/vjghomepage/vjghome.htm on-line
http://users.bestweb.net/~siom/martian_mountain/JCP/ off line, enhanced edition
ADDED: line-by-line playlists, parallel J-Eng .doc
!GrVJGr.7z.001
!GrVJGr.7z.002
!GrVJGr.7z.003

Particles
http://www.colby.edu/personal/t/tkprindl...Index.html on-line
http://users.bestweb.net/~siom/martian_mountain/JCP/ off line
!Particles colby.edu
ADDED: line-by-line playlists, parallel J-Eng .doc

More grammar stuff here:
http://users.bestweb.net/~siom/martian_mountain/JCP/

JapanesePod101
Here's the list of 401 items:
http://www.japanesepod101.com/learningce...jlpt&value
Explanations in plain English, plenty of example sentences, the mojority of them with audio.
You have to register.


These are good enough to be worth having a look at (for English speakers):
Paper books
Seichi Makino and Michio Tsutsui
Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar
Dictionary of Intermediate Japanese Grammar
A Dictionary of Advanced Japanese Grammar

Stefan Kaiser and Yasuko Ichikawa
Japanese: A Comprehensive Grammar
(over 3000 real example sentences)



On-line:
No audio
(I never trust anything by non-professionals.)
http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/grammar Tae Kim
http://grammar.nihongoresources.com/doku.php The Nihongoresources Book
http://www.jgram.org/pages/viewList.php

In Japanese
http://www.geocities.jp/niwasaburoo/index.html

First of all could you give a little more info on exactly what you have been studying for 3 months.

By 3,000 do you mean you finished RTK 1 and/or 2 and/or 3 and you just know how to recognize them or you also know the readings for most of them. ( As you would after say core 2k/6k for example)

Personally I think sentence mining is something that people should start latter in their learning. Let me use myself as an example.

I am currently going through Core 2k at a rate of 25 new kanji per day. I know it sounds like a lot but I basically do nothing else but review all day, I over study like crazy because I really want them to stick permanently. At this pace anyone should be able to finish core 2k in like 90-ish days maybe sooner if your schedule and studying habits permit it. II know it sounds like a lot and a lot of other people take the slow and steady approach and that's fine if you can stick with it consistently but I could not and this Blitz type of study schedule works best for me.

So an over view of my study plan goes like this.

1- Finish all the core 2k/6k with 100% retention rate cause otherwise what's the point.

2- Go through "All About particles" and "How to tell the difference between particles". Both are written by the same author and both do a fantastic job at giving you a basic grasp on particles. (Plus both books together are pretty cheap and you'll use them all the time for reference) Particles tie the words in sentences together and they are VITAL to a better overall understanding.

3-ONLY after fully grasping the core vocab and having a great handle on particles will I start learning grammar. As with most peoples recommendations on this forum I will start with the Genki 1 & 2 textbooks and accompanying materials and then move on to "A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar" and then on to "A Dictionary of Intermediate Japanese Grammar" (These books are a bit pricier but from the reviews from most people I've read about these books and other like them for grammar these seems to be the best not only in scope and how much they cover but also for not being as boring as most of the other books on grammar)


Just to explain why the grammar comes in so late for me, I tried looking up grammar points before but the sentences they were using as examples had unknown kanji and particles I did not understand in them so instead of focusing 100% on the grammar point I'm also trying to figure out this new kanji and how this particles works. IMHO it is just easier to do grammar after you have a pretty decent foundation.

ALL these books and the core 2k/6k have several pre-made downloadable anki decks for them. It is as easy as downloading them and starting the reviews.

But to really answer your question, I know a lot of people rely on the method of sentence mining but there is no need to do it when there is such great material already made for you out there. The point of sentence mining is to come across new grammar principles and new words and build up from there, but as I mentioned these books go through all the grammar points and particles with several example sentences. again IMHO these books and anki decks give you everything you need to study japanese to a JLPT 2 kyu, I think a dictionary of intermediate japanese grammar cover the 2 kyu as well.

And if none of the above applies to you or you still want keep going with the sentence mining method then I would suggest just trying it out for a few days. Is it something you can handle or is it just too much. Try it and decide for yourself because the "ready" feeling is different from person to person.

Hope some of this helped

Personally, sentence mining was never my thing. It appealed to me at first, seeing AJATT and other sites that promised results, but once I got to reping the sentences, it just didn't feel right. The only sentence reps I suggest are the ones in Core 2000, which the above comments recommended as well. 1000 words in and you should be able to access basic Japanese, meaning you have the vocab necessary to start reading some native material. Get on a blog with Rikai and read some Japanese! Don't worry to much if you don't get every word: focus on the stuff you know. I recommend Tai Kim's Grammar Guide as an entry level grammar study; most of the fine points will come to you as you read native material. When I was 2/3 done with Core 2000, I read Zero no Tsukaima (with the help of Rikai) and my Japanese took off from there! I used anki to memorize vocabulary I thought was important and as soon as I started the second book, I saw my work pay off. The coolest part is I'm ACTUALLY READING JAPANESE! SOOOO COOOL!

after RTK I took about 1000 example sentences out of yahoo.co.jp... I also read the kanzen master 3級 grammar book... but studying grammar without lots of examples is like running water through a sieve. to read it is great but you will forget most things, so I say read it once quickly and then keep it as a resource for later when you have grammar questions.

After that I did 3000 subs 2 srs cards, core 6k, 1000 MCDs, and now am halfway through core 10k. obviously lots of varied immersion too.

I think it's presumptuous to assume you're going to do some strategy forever... like lifting weights your mind adjusts to the stimulus and marginal utility will fall. changing the question up is a good way to keep your mind on its toes.

EasyJapanezy Wrote:1- Finish all the core 2k/6k with 100% retention rate cause otherwise what's the point.

The point is to lay a solid foundation for your vocab and to prevent forgetting words just because you haven't seen them used in practice for some time. Personally I view SRS as a (very useful) tool that can work wonders, but only if it's used as a complement and reinforced by encountering the vocab/kanji in actual reading/listening material. It's a very personal thing, but I think your goal of just SRSing (especially with such a high goal) will be inefficient and unnecessarily frustrating.

EasyJapanezy Wrote:Just to explain why the grammar comes in so late for me, I tried looking up grammar points before but the sentences they were using as examples had unknown kanji and particles I did not understand in them so instead of focusing 100% on the grammar point I'm also trying to figure out this new kanji and how this particles works. IMHO it is just easier to do grammar after you have a pretty decent foundation.

I experienced pretty much the same thing with Tae Kim; there was so many kanji and vocab I didn't know that I couldn't get into the grammar at all. I tried Japanese the Manga Way instead, which didn't have this problem at all. The examples are "quality over quantity": every sentence is word-by-word translated (as well as "properly" translated) and all grammar points in the sentences are explained.

I don't know what way would work for you, but I do recommend finding some way of "integrating" grammar/particles, vocab, kanji usage, etc instead of doing it in sequence. They're all connected and in my experience they reinforce each other when learning. Also, without grammar you can't read a shred of real Japanese, which is also a great way of reinforcing studied vocab/grammar.

Edit: I just realized you weren't the one asking for advice. Oh well, just take the above as reasons for why I usually wouldn't recommend your study plan to OP and others