Hello.

I started learning Japanese not so long ago, i know Hiragana & Katakana well and i also started Kanji.
Now... for grammar, i bought the book Japanese the Manga way but to be honest.... i don't like the book so much... i feel like the author jumps around with the rules too much, for example... he explains about Desu in the beginning, then he drops it and move on to other stuff, then he comes back to Desu again and i feel like i have a salad in my head...

What i want is to learn everything in one place for example if im learning about Desu, i want to learn all the different forms of Desu right away and not get back to it later.

But maybe the book method will benefit more in the end even if i don't realize it now? i don't know. what do you think?
Can i learn grammar from internet? all suggestions would be much appreciated...

Thank you~~

Before anyone else suggests it, can I suggest Tae Kim's blog? From the parts that I've tried, I found it very helpful

I think you benefit greatly from not being over-analytic about the rules and letting stuff sink in with time through exposure. The brain surely learns easier when information comes in smaller chunks at a time? But your views about learning through exposure to the language might differ from mine.

A lot of people recommend Tae Kim's guide to grammar. It's not so complicated, always has examples I think, and it's easy to refer to when there are specific things on your mind.

edit: ちくしょう！Fronyo you bastard

when i first started out, i found Japanese Step by Step, by Gene Nishi to be quite helpful. It's laid out in a good introductory way. I will agree that Tae Kim is also good. I also think Japanese Demystified is a great beginners book, though it is not focused entirely on grammar, it might compliment the others well.
I didn't dive right into RTK or Tae Kim when I first started. I didn't actually get through most of Tae Kim until the third time I picked it up. That may be because I got the PDF on my kindle and the app on my phone, making it easier to read for me than having it open in a webpage at the computer, but I also think that having had some Japanese under my belt already helped contextualize what Tae Kim's guide says. So I'd recommend all three, without stopping too much to write everything down. It may be better to just keep immersing yourself in the language while reading these guides multiple times quickly. But of course, to each his own. When I first started out and all I had was Nishi's book, I wrote down almost everything as if I would magically speak the language by memorizing each rule and word. Can't say it hurt, though.

I think Fillanzea (or however you spell it) said something that I agree with.

Learning the rules is like a scaffolding. When you actually see it being used or use it yourself, you get a better and more concrete impression of it.

I wouldn't be too hung up on having a bulletproof grasp on all the rules based entirely on textbooks, but to use them as guides when you do some immersion or something.

Not everyone likes immersion though, and when people just start out it's common that there's a lot of motivation that gives huge momentum. I think people should look into and try lots of different things in the beginning.

Thank you everyone,im gonna try Tae Kim's guide

Edit: I looked into this guide and i see that he uses kanji with no romaji translation, so i understand that i need to know kanji well to use this guide?


Im not picky about learning the grammar 100%...
I only want to read/hear japanese and be able to understand it, im not going to speak the language nor write it so im not afraid of making mistakes while speaking with someone...

Its enough for me to just understand the grammar...
For example, i understand English grammar very well when i read it or hear it, but if someone will ask me to write a short story, it will be a total mess with a lot of grammar mistakes... (English is not my native language).

Also, what is the best way to start learning words? reading and translating? or maybe i should take a subject, learn it, and then moving forward? (animals, colors, weather, etc...)

TwoMoreCharacters Wrote:Not everyone likes immersion though, and when people just start out it's common that there's a lot of motivation that gives huge momentum. I think people should look into and try lots of different things in the beginning.

I think immersion definitely varies to the degree that you want to immerse. I think you could definitely get a lot from a beginner level by watching English-subtitled dramas or anime until you level up your vocabulary.

The way I do it at my current level is to study from the JLPT book to build that framework, and then when I read stuff or see it in real life it kinda cements that foundation. I'm definitely not advocating that you throw away the textbook.

Tanya Wrote:Also, what is the best way to start learning words? reading and translating? or maybe i should take a subject, learn it, and then moving forward? (animals, colors, weather, etc...)

For me, what I did is a vocabulary program (KO2001) and I SRSed all the example sentences. I found it easier to learn groups of words that use the same kanji. I also worked on a JLPT N2 vocabulary book. With both of those, I feel like I developed a good enough base to learn words from real material because I don't have to learn too much at once.
But you might like real material better, so experiment to see which works best for you.

Tanya Wrote:Edit: I looked into this guide and i see that he uses kanji with no romaji translation, so i understand that i need to know kanji well to use this guide?

Well, you can use a program like rikaichan or rikaikun for Firefox/Chrome and remove this problem. If you don't know a kanji you can mouse over it (actually, I believe the website has a feature like this on it automatically, right? But it's not very good).

I don't recommend learning words by subject. Rather learn by using a Spaced Repetition Software (I use one called Anki) and put all the example sentences or interesting sentencs you come across into it. This way, you'll be learning vocabulary that you know will be useful [as other people have used it].

As for Tae Kim's Guide, you don't have to know how to pronounce the kanji, he gives the pronunciation in Kana at the beginning of each section. I just copied his sentences into the Question Field of the SRS and put the translation, along with the sentence in Kana so I would also learn readings. Then I would read the grammar article to reinforce the sentences.

P.S. What's your native language? Mine's Gujarati [though you've probably never heard of it]!

Thank you, im gonna learn words with the method you suggested, i appreciate your help

What kind of audio cd do you recommend me to use? i never used them before

My native language is Russian though i know Hebrew like it was my native language too
And no... i never heard of Gujarati...

kainzero Wrote:I think immersion definitely varies to the degree that you want to immerse. I think you could definitely get a lot from a beginner level by watching English-subtitled dramas or anime until you level up your vocabulary.

I agree, it's just that as a beginner you might be very motivated and ready to work hard for a rewarding progress, and maybe feel that just sitting around taking in input is too passive. Don't know about English subs though. Watched quite a bit of anime with subs for several years before I started taking Japanese seriously, and while the few lone words and phrases I picked up definitely helped (enough so that I had what I felt was a foundation when I started for real), it was really nothing compared to the progress I made once I made efforts to pay attention to the language without the subs. Of course the SRS was there though, I don't really know.

Tanya Wrote:Thank you, im gonna learn words with the method you suggested, i appreciate your help

i downloaded ANKI from the android market along with remembering the kanji but the program first gives me the answer and then shows me the kanji, and i want it the other way around... i want to see the kanji first, and then after i click, to see the answer... can i change it?

My native language is Russian though i know Hebrew like it was my native language too
And no... i never heard of Gujarati...

Download the desktop version to your computer and use that to better manage the decks. You can sync your progress between the desktop version and AnkiDroid, you just need to make an account. In the settings for the decks there are options for the card layout, you can arrange the different pieces of information and decide what you want on the front and back of the card. Also if you download the pre-made RTK decks (instead of making your own and creating the cards as you go) you should suspend all the cards (takes them out of reviewing cycle) and unsuspend the ones you've made stories for as you go. That's easier to do on the desktop version.

Consider that Keyword to Kanji and Kanji to Keyword (character on front or back) are two different kinds of reviewing though. If you put the character on the front of the card, then you'll mostly be practicing your ability to recognize it, and it's then easier to remember the keyword without using the story at all. If the character is on the back then you'll only be seeing the keyword, and your mind will be working on actually constructing the character internally. If you can imagine the character then you'll definitely be able to recognize it. Both Heisig and I think most users on here recommend having the character on the back. Also I think the creator of Anki suggests that you always put the goal - whatever you're focusing on learning - on the back. The point of RTK isn't really to memorize all these keywords like the back of your hand as they aren't the perfect actual meanings of the characters, we want to familiarize ourselves with the characters and remember their appearances.

I see now.. this is really what i did... i pictured the kanji in my head and this way i knew if i know it well, i just thought that this is pretty uncomfortable.
I will train myself this way from now on (i had a problem with the more complex kanji, cant picture them in my head though if i see them i know what they mean right away).

It's anyone's choice to do either. Recognition is a lot easier, passive is easier than active. If you find RTK difficult or want to rush through it quickly then maybe you'd benefit from having the character on the back. It's just that it means missing out on parts of this method that I think are great.

TwoMoreCharacters Wrote:I agree, it's just that as a beginner you might be very motivated and ready to work hard for a rewarding progress, and maybe feel that just sitting around taking in input is too passive. Don't know about English subs though. Watched quite a bit of anime with subs for several years before I started taking Japanese seriously, and while the few lone words and phrases I picked up definitely helped (enough so that I had what I felt was a foundation when I started for real), it was really nothing compared to the progress I made once I made efforts to pay attention to the language without the subs. Of course the SRS was there though, I don't really know.

for me it really took a while to enjoy media with japanese subs. i think that at the very least, with english subs, you can build some familiarity with the rhythm and structure of natural japanese.

if you were really motivated, you could watch it with english subs, then again with japanese subs, then again with no subs.

i think exposure to natural japanese in conjunction with textbook study is necessary to really drive home grammar points, but i also feel like at the beginner level the only way to get both fun and some sort of learning is to use english subs and then gradually wean yourself off of it. i think as long as you're studying textbook stuff it's easier to learn off of natural japanese...

I have one more question.
How to continue my studying?

There is:

Kana = i know it well
Kanji = started learning (i know only 100 at this point)
Grammar = didn't touched much yet
Vocabulary = everyday im adding a few new words to my notebook and that's about it

I make sure to read everyday to practice my Kana+im learning Kanji.
Do i need to add grammar/vocabulary studying or its better to focus on one thing at a time?

I think trying to balance too much at once will just be detrimental to your overall progress in the end. Having said that, from what I can tell grammar and vocabulary can be learnt simultaneously to no consequence. I don't think it's all too wise to do it before you have at least a few more kanji under your belt, however. People tend to start a sentence deck at around RTK1-1500

Tanya Wrote:I have one more question.
How to continue my studying?

This is the approach that most people seem to recommend.

Start off with RTK. After you finish (or even at the same time as you're working through RTK), start mining sentences from a textbook (Genki I&II). This part isn't exactly the most interesting, so the faster you get it done the better. There are at least pre-made decks for RTK and Genki (I think).

After you get finished with this, you can start doing a couple different things at the same time (maybe all if you want...):

1) Continue studying grammar through sentence mining/cloze-delete. Some people use the Kanzen Master series of text books with a goal of completing the 2-kyuu text book. Some people just go through Tae Kim's grammar guide.

2) Maybe start with a pre-made vocab/sentence deck. I'm thinking of something like Core2k/6k. You should have somewhat of a head-start here since you went through Genki, but the vast majority of the words here will be new.

3) Start sentence/vocab mining from native materials that you enjoy. This could be manga, anime, dramas, etc. Make sure it's not too hard. If you stop enjoying it, then move to something else. If you find a sentence or word you can't figure out, then feel free to post in this thread: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...#pid168028

4) If you want to actually start using Japanese, then try to find a skype partner or start writing on lang8. It will be very hard at first.

You will have a pretty good grasp of Japanese once you get about 5,000 sentences/words in your SRS. It feels very rewarding when you can throw on a drama and follow it just like you would something in English.

The only personal advice I can give you is to not worry too much about the exact meaning of the grammar. If you're like me, then you probably want to know exactly what every particle, conjugation, etc. means. But for the most part, Japanese is so different from English that you really just need to see that grammar pattern 100 times in 100 different contexts to really get a good feel for what it means. Don't worry if you can't figure out exactly what everything means. As long as you get the gist then you should be okay.

Learning Japanese is not easy. Unless you are Chinese or Korean it requires A LOT of work. Good luck.

Wooha thank you so much

I know its not easy...but its not like i have a dead line, im studying because its fun and if it will take me 5 years to learn it - so be it
Im trying not to overwhelm myself with stuff so i know it will take me a lot of time to learn it.

Yesterday i found a Japanese website for kids and it was very rewarding every time i recognized a word, its stupid but i was really happy only because of one word.
there was one word with kana+kanji, i didnt know what the Kana meant but i
recognized the kanji so i guessed what it was and i was right! now i get why people say that with kanji its easier.

I will probably feel like i won a million $$ the moment i will recognize a whole sentence from a song or tv series, i hope i will make it to that point though

I feel like i talk too much so thank you everyone im off studying but i will BE BACK.

i always thought Japanese was easy, it just takes a long time. like it's not conceptually hard, there's just a lot to learn. =)