So..
I'm studying now for N3, and my progress is going really well that I'm pretty confident I'll pass it this coming July and then I would be attempting N2 by December of this year, but...
I keep on hearing about the big jump from N4/N3 to N2 and about how people spend YEARS just trying reach that level
The question is: is it possible to jump from N3 to N2 in 6 months?
The things that would be accomplished by July are:
Finishing RtK, KO2001, Genki I/II, Minna no Nihongo I/II/中級, Nihongo Sou-matome N3, 75% of Core6000, In addition to solving many sample tests for N3/N4/N5 and practicing using other drilling books.
On the practical side, I'm watching at least 2 hours of American series with Japanese subs (sorry, I just can't stand watching the Japanese ones!), I'm living in the country-side of Japan and try my best to immerse myself, including studying my engineering master courses in Japanese (nothing amazing in here, the lecturers will pretend that they're teaching me in Japanese, and then they would give me an English version of the lectures and ask to answer the final test questions completely in English!). In addition to that, by July half of the book "Basic Technical Japanese" should be completely and thoroughly studied.
My plan during the 6 months before the test is:
Finishing RtK2, KiC, Nihongo Sou-Matome N2, some drill books, watching more things with Japanese subtitles, finishing Basic Technical Japanese and Intermediate Technical Japanese, and finishing all Core6000
Is that enough for passing the N2?
Please keep in mind that I've started learning Japanese on April last year, so I don't really have enough time to apply everything I've learned so far...

You can do it. The jump was obviously bigger in the old format (JLPT3->2 vs N3->N2).

it's doable but it's tough, you might be overestimating your ability to pick up new things and study.

at the beginning of last year i thought i would be ready to take N1 in december, but with this and that and having trouble absorbing certain grammar points, i stepped down to N2 and i'm not even sure if i passed that.

i would just move at a pace that i'm comfortable with, and then when it comes time for the test you can sign up for whatever level is appropriate.

fifo_thekid Wrote:My plan during the 6 months before the test is:
Finishing RtK2, KiC, Nihongo Sou-Matome N2, some drill books, watching more things with Japanese subtitles, finishing Basic Technical Japanese and Intermediate Technical Japanese, and finishing all Core6000
Is that enough for passing the N2?
Please keep in mind that I've started learning Japanese on April last year, so I don't really have enough time to apply everything I've learned so far...

In my opinion your study plan is focused on "technical" side of learning (kanji, grammar, vocab etc.) which in itself isn't necessarily bad but I don't think its enough to pass N2.

In my experience the hardest part of N2 is reading and you don't mention reading TONS of Japanese in your plan and that is what you're going to need. Vocab isn't a problem in most sections (I did my N2 few months after finishing Core 6k so it had the time to sink in) but again during reading it will be much harder.

Be honest with yourself and do this test:
Read 5 社説 (should be around the amount you will read during the test) on subjects you're comfortable with without rikaichan, measure the time and after that check your comprehension (compare it to a machine translation or you with rikaichan). Now if you did that using less than 2/3 or 1/2 time of N2 with solid understanding of each one (don't need to be perfect), you're good. If not, get back to reading

Some say for listening you need to be around "anime level" but I think its not that demanding. Still its also a fun way of checking yourself, watch an episode with no subtitles - pause each time you didn't "get" the dialogue and count pauses

You can go from N3 to N2 in 6 months if you study quite hard...

But one year is more realistic for anyone who has other obligations to take care of.

suffah Wrote:You can do it. The jump was obviously bigger in the old format (JLPT3->2 vs N3->N2).

I hope so.
Thank you for the encouragement

kainzero Wrote:it's doable but it's tough, you might be overestimating your ability to pick up new things and study.

at the beginning of last year i thought i would be ready to take N1 in december, but with this and that and having trouble absorbing certain grammar points, i stepped down to N2 and i'm not even sure if i passed that.

i would just move at a pace that i'm comfortable with, and then when it comes time for the test you can sign up for whatever level is appropriate.

Well, I am already moving at a comfortable pace which is around 3-4hours a day of studying.
I'm facing the same grammar problem, but I'm trying to tackle this problem using two methods:
1- Forcing myself to use recently learned grammar. Sometimes I start a shot conversation with my colleagues just to use some grammar points! This has the added advantage in that people will know that you've learned those grammar points, so they would start using them while talking to you
2- Creating an Anki deck that has sample sentences from the grammar sentences that I've learned so far, English translation, and the grammatical point it is supposed to implement.

thurd Wrote:In my opinion your study plan is focused on "technical" side of learning (kanji, grammar, vocab etc.) which in itself isn't necessarily bad but I don't think its enough to pass N2.

In my experience the hardest part of N2 is reading and you don't mention reading TONS of Japanese in your plan and that is what you're going to need. Vocab isn't a problem in most sections (I did my N2 few months after finishing Core 6k so it had the time to sink in) but again during reading it will be much harder.

Be honest with yourself and do this test:
Read 5 社説 (should be around the amount you will read during the test) on subjects you're comfortable with without rikaichan, measure the time and after that check your comprehension (compare it to a machine translation or you with rikaichan). Now if you did that using less than 2/3 or 1/2 time of N2 with solid understanding of each one (don't need to be perfect), you're good. If not, get back to reading

Some say for listening you need to be around "anime level" but I think its not that demanding. Still its also a fun way of checking yourself, watch an episode with no subtitles - pause each time you didn't "get" the dialogue and count pauses

Well, the main reason I started this thread is to ask about tackling the reading side of the test. By the time of attempting N2 exam, I would have read subtitles equivalent to hundreds of hours of showtime, plus around 10 to 15 technical papers, plus studying 10 college courses in Japanese, plus around 5 manga books, in addition to using Japanese in a lot of daily transactions like reading letters from governmental institutes, advertisements, college circulations, etc... Although that doesn't mean that I'll be having a complete understanding of what I'm reading.
The 社説 is a very good advice. I think that I'll be adding that to my daily regiment. I'll start by using Rikaichan as little as possible, decreasing the need for using it during the learning course. I might even ask my Japanese colleagues to help me with the explanation
For the listening part, do I need to make any special exercising other than using the audio files accompanying with KO2001, KiC, and Core6000; in addition to finishing at least 6 listening based Japanese courses?
I mean, I'm already living in Japan and I'm having a "fair" amount of conversations
I hope that you can advice me more about this point.

Tzadeck Wrote:You can go from N3 to N2 in 6 months if you study quite hard...

But one year is more realistic for anyone who has other obligations to take care of.

I'll be having my Monbukagakusho interview by July next year, in addition to trying my best to apply for a part-time translation job, that's why I'm pushing myself as much as possible to have N2 by the beginning of next year and at least attend N1 without getting the results before the interview takes place...

fifo_thekid Wrote:1- Forcing myself to use recently learned grammar. Sometimes I start a shot conversation with my colleagues just to use some grammar points! This has the added advantage in that people will know that you've learned those grammar points, so they would start using them while talking to you

Speaking and conversation literally has almost no bearing on how well you do on the test. I know people with far better conversation and rough listening skills than me that continue to flounder around the N2 level because they live in a bubble where they've convinced themselves they understand things "well enough." The amount of time you're putting in sounds pretty good as long as you aren't inflating it. If you can split the amount of time you're spending between drilling vocab/kanji and drilling reading then you'll end up doing fine.

Vocabulary skill is more of the big deal at N2. Reading skill becomes more of a thing at N1, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't focus on it. There's a number of graded reader series and drill books focused on the JLPT. There's enough of them in fact that I would encourage you buy drill books from 2 or 3 different series. With the amount of time you're spending you should have no trouble finishing one of those every 6 weeks or so.

Just make sure you're using them as a source for directed reading rather than as drill books. The content of those books is the thing you want. The comprehension checking questions are okay, but shouldn't be your main focus until you start actually drilling closer to the test. Use the content of those books to focus on actual reading speed and comprehension rather than the test-taking skills.

fifo_thekid Wrote:2- Creating an Anki deck that has sample sentences from the grammar sentences that I've learned so far, English translation, and the grammatical point it is supposed to implement.

Nix the English translation from your deck, and instead include the page number of the specific grammar point from your grammar dictionary. That way you can look it up easily if you need to, but you have some skin in the game in terms of making that difficult enough to be worth avoiding doing. You also won't be spending a bunch of time twisting yourself in knots trying to solve grammatical problems that drive even professional translators crazy. There is simply not an equivalent grammar structure for everything between languages. The patterns are just different.

When I made the jump from old 3k to 2k, the UNICOM books listed something like 190 separate points to learn. I tackled these over about 10 months at a leisurely pace of 5 points or so a month.

I kept a physical notebook as well as used ANKI.

When I started a point I copied down the three example sentences from the UNICOM book into my notebook while taking note of vocabulary I didn't know to also throw into ANKI. Next I looked up the point in various grammar dictionaries, usually the DO(BIA)JG. When I came across points I had trouble with or thought were especially important to remember, I tried to make five of my own example sentences and run them through a native speaker.

After all that I threw up each example sentence from UNICOM into ANKI with the sentence and grammar point highlighted on the front and the audio and detailed notes on the point on the back.

erlog Wrote:Speaking and conversation literally has almost no bearing on how well you do on the test. I know people with far better conversation and rough listening skills than me that continue to flounder around the N2 level because they live in a bubble where they've convinced themselves they understand things "well enough." The amount of time you're putting in sounds pretty good as long as you aren't inflating it. If you can split the amount of time you're spending between drilling vocab/kanji and drilling reading then you'll end up doing fine.

You might be right about the conversation part, although I'm trying to make the conversations more systematic by grabbing a topic from Wikipedia and starting a conversation about every point in it, thereby extending the used vocabulary and expressions. I think that I'll be following your advice of splitting the time between vocab/Kanji and reading drilling though. I that that that would be useful to me.

erlog Wrote:Vocabulary skill is more of the big deal at N2. Reading skill becomes more of a thing at N1, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't focus on it. There's a number of graded reader series and drill books focused on the JLPT. There's enough of them in fact that I would encourage you buy drill books from 2 or 3 different series. With the amount of time you're spending you should have no trouble finishing one of those every 6 weeks or so.

Just make sure you're using them as a source for directed reading rather than as drill books. The content of those books is the thing you want. The comprehension checking questions are okay, but shouldn't be your main focus until you start actually drilling closer to the test. Use the content of those books to focus on actual reading speed and comprehension rather than the test-taking skills.

I'll be really considering the graded readers option starting from June this year. One of the graded readers that I didn't like is the this one:
Japanese Graded Readers Level
It seemed so outrageously priced to me, and very simplistic.
Do you have any recommendation for "serious" graded readers?

erlog Wrote:Nix the English translation from your deck, and instead include the page number of the specific grammar point from your grammar dictionary. That way you can look it up easily if you need to, but you have some skin in the game in terms of making that difficult enough to be worth avoiding doing. You also won't be spending a bunch of time twisting yourself in knots trying to solve grammatical problems that drive even professional translators crazy. There is simply not an equivalent grammar structure for everything between languages. The patterns are just different.

Well, the reason I'm adding the English translation coz I'm thinking of putting it in the question part. While I'm reviewing, I should attempt to translate it using a Japanese sentence that is as close as possible to the answer part.
However, I might consider cancelling the English part and replacing it with the Japanese part, highlighting the part of the sentence that I need to know it's grammar, while having the target grammar point and page number in the answer....

kitakitsune Wrote:When I made the jump from old 3k to 2k, the UNICOM books listed something like 190 separate points to learn. I tackled these over about 10 months at a leisurely pace of 5 points or so a month.

I kept a physical notebook as well as used ANKI.

When I started a point I copied down the three example sentences from the UNICOM book into my notebook while taking note of vocabulary I didn't know to also throw into ANKI. Next I looked up the point in various grammar dictionaries, usually the DO(BIA)JG. When I came across points I had trouble with or thought were especially important to remember, I tried to make five of my own example sentences and run them through a native speaker.

After all that I threw up each example sentence from UNICOM into ANKI with the sentence and grammar point highlighted on the front and the audio and detailed notes on the point on the back.

Hmmmmmmm...I really think that I'll do this
Although I'm thinking of following the Sou-Matome Series to the end, since I'm studying to N3 exam using that series.

After checking them again, I might buy the 3rd and 4th level sets.
Don't you think that they're too expensive?

fifo_thekid Wrote:Hmmmmmmm...I really think that I'll do this
Although I'm thinking of following the Sou-Matome Series to the end, since I'm studying to N3 exam using that series.

i'm kinda pissed off with the sou-matome series because they reuse a lot of vocab from the N2 vocab book in the N1 book. what the heck man =(

but i already bought it so i don't have a choice.

kainzero Wrote:

fifo_thekid Wrote:Hmmmmmmm...I really think that I'll do this
Although I'm thinking of following the Sou-Matome Series to the end, since I'm studying to N3 exam using that series.

i'm kinda pissed off with the sou-matome series because they reuse a lot of vocab from the N2 vocab book in the N1 book. what the heck man =(

but i already bought it so i don't have a choice.

Well, to be frank with you, even though I'm studying using Nihongo Sou-Matome N3's vocabulary book, I'm not taking it seriously!
I'm basing my vocabulary learning on Anki decks and using that book only as a method of "reviewing".

Hyperborea Wrote:Hmmm, I think that they are kind of expensive but I'm not sure that they are too expensive. There's not much else on the market that I've seen that does what it does. It's a nicely graded set of readers with full audio for every story. I've got a fair bit of use out of each set. I've read the books on their own. Listened to the audio (in the car, on walks, working out). Read and listened to the audio at the same time.

Whether it's worth it to you or not is a judgement call. I'd put it after some other study material in the list of priorities. But it's only about 2,000 to 2,500 yen (used vs. new) on Amazon for the five short stories with audio. That's maybe the price of 3 manga or 2 ok lunches.

I'm also figuring that I'm "renting" them. I've been keeping them in pristine condition and will put them up for sale in the US (where I live right now) when I'm done though I bought them in Japan. Maybe I'll get 1/2 to 2/3 of that back.

If I was a broke college kid or fresh out of school in a new job that balance might tip the other way. Maybe you could find them used in the gaijin community in Japan? Maybe share them with a friend who's also learning? (Buy alternate sets and share them)

I'm not a broke college kid at all, but...
I'm basing my judgement on the Level 0 collection which I already own. It is nice and everything but it's so short to be priced that much. I can imagine buying a long novel for that price!
I'm trying to make some contacts for borrowing those stories or at least buying used ones. Hope I can find some

fifo_thekid Wrote:One of the graded readers that I didn't like is the this one:
Japanese Graded Readers Level
It seemed so outrageously priced to me, and very simplistic.
Do you have any recommendation for "serious" graded readers?

If you're getting close to N2 level you probably don't need a graded reader; you just need more practice reading authentic texts, and maybe more practice reading the kinds of texts that N2 is going to test you on.

I know of one other graded reader in Japanese, which is Roy Andrew Miller's "A Japanese Reader: Graded Lessons for Mastering the Written Language." I don't like it very much; the book was first printed in 1962, and it really shows, with many examples of old-style orthography and few examples that will be useful to modern students. The book progresses from the fundamentals of the writing system to "Liberalization Plans in Foreign Trade Exchange" and "The Forms of T'ang Poetry" in less than two hundred pages, leaving little room for explanation. It's also worth noting that nearly all of my Japanese books, including everything from novels to popular texts on psychology, are easier than even the 'intermediate' articles in this reader.

Better than that, I think, are the books in the "Read Real Japanese" series. Especially the 'essays' one, because it's close to the kind of writing you'll see on the test. I also recommend reading Asahi's Tensei Jingo column every day:
http://www.asahi.com/paper/column.html

But any reading that you do is going to help you out a lot overall, even if it's children's chapter books.

I think what is a good measure to tell if you're well prepared for reading or not when it comes to JLPT N2 is the Kanzen Master series. I have only the old one, but I guess it is pretty decent.
What helps me these days is reading http://lifehacker.jp. I find the article interesting, so above all it's quite fun for me and I don't use rikai-sama that much. I've tried reading 2-3 articles a day there for 3 weeks by now and all I can tell is, that I am getting better and better

Thank you very much
I really liked Read Real Japanese, Asashi's Tensi Jingo and LifeHacker.
I'll try to make them fit in my schedule

Fillanzea Wrote:I know of one other graded reader in Japanese, which is Roy Andrew Miller's "A Japanese Reader: Graded Lessons for Mastering the Written Language." I don't like it very much; the book was first printed in 1962, and it really shows, with many examples of old-style orthography and few examples that will be useful to modern students. The book progresses from the fundamentals of the writing system to "Liberalization Plans in Foreign Trade Exchange" and "The Forms of T'ang Poetry" in less than two hundred pages, leaving little room for explanation. It's also worth noting that nearly all of my Japanese books, including everything from novels to popular texts on psychology, are easier than even the 'intermediate' articles in this reader.

Yeah, I have a copy of this; I wouldn't recommend it for studying but it's kind of interesting to come back to it occasionally to see whether any of it has got any easier...

If you actually do have a need to read old pre-kana-reform texts it does have a reasonable summary of the changes and some example texts, but as you say not many people really need that any more.

you could also read kyoko shimbun if you get tired of the dry content of the news, lol.

http://kyoko-np.net/

[Zgarbas]

I'm going to derail the topic a bit since y'all are talking things to read, if you don't mind.

How exactly did you guys go about reading your first novels? Read the Japanese version first and hope for the best, check every sentence/page with the English version?

(I am reading an all Japanese novel for the first time this month )

I just read the Japanese versions of novels I knew well.

I just got a text version and went through it with Rikai-chan. There were lots of things I couldn't understand but I basically just ignored them and kept reading. By the end of the book I was understanding a lot more even though I hadn't taken the time to work out the things I didn't understand.