I've been studying Japanese for about one and a half years.

I started with "Japanese for Busy People", but soon found out that I really dislike that method.

Then I found out about "Genki". And while I really like this method -I managed to get to chapter 10- I have become slightly bored with it.

Maybe it's just because I've been staring at genki for too long (I had to restart it 2 to 3 times because of RSI)…. Maybe it's because I don't really like the cartoons and stories ….

Either way, now that my RSI is slowly healing, I just need something shiny and new
So, I looked around and I found a book that I might like, which happens to be "Introduction to Modern Japanese".( i plan on getting both books)

However, the price tag is making me think twice about buying it. So I was wondering if anyone could tell me whether they have completed the entire course in this book/are working from it; what you thought of it and whether it was doable without a teacher. I was also wondering to what level this book would bring you if you'd complete it.

I'm planning on combining it with a textbook called "Basic Technical Japanese", as I'm studying electrical engineering (well, something called Sensor technology), and would like to perhaps do an internship in Japan. So, if anyone, by chance, has worked from this book as well, please let me know what you think of it.

For those interested, you can take a look at the books here:

Introduction to Modern Japanese
http://books.google.nl/books?id=Gu3k3eiO...&q&f=false

Basic technical Japanese
http://books.google.nl/books?id=oN23JJhj...&q&f=false

I have not used the Modern Japanese book or the technical one. It's gotten great reviews, but some of the reviewers said there was no answer key, which was one of the reasons I went with Japanese for Everyone instead. I'm not sure you were aware of that or care about that, but thought I should point it out in case it is important to you :-).

The technical book sounds awesome. When I get more advanced that looks like it could be fun (I'm an engineer).

Hope your RSI is healing. I assume you are talking about an injury and not the Research Science Institute?

I don't know how far An Introduction to Modern Japanese will get you in terms of JLPT. But it is a good or bad a program as all the others. You can very well work through this book on your own. For the exercises there are no answers, and there is no Audio available for the dialogues. You can work around both by using the plug-in for Anki or get a software, that let's you create audio files, which you can then use on your cards.

The exercises come in three categories:
- Study the examples and then perform the same operation on the following
-- Example:
正直に言った方がいい。
正直に言うべきだ。

妹さんと一緒に行った方がいい。
今すぐに出発したほうがいい。

- Translate into English
-- Example:
男達は立ったままで話を続けて。
彼女は三ヶ月前に会った時には、近いうちにまた電話をすると言っていたのにどこかへ行ってしまったまま連絡がなくなってしまった。

- Translate into Japanese
-- Example:
It was you who made a mistake, so you should apologise.
Don't you think that you should try to investigate yourself first before asking someone else?

Complete the following table
-- Example:
talk　　　　 話す　　　　　話そう　　　　話させる　　　　話せ　　　　話すな
　　　　　　　聞く
　　　　　　　言う
　　　　　　　.....

There are also some question and response exercises but little else besides that. But you will need the Exercise book, for it contains the vocabulary lists. Also you should be aware of the fact, that it is printed by Amazon UK, and that there can be misprints.

It doesn't matter which book series you go with to learn the basics. Most of them cover the same grounds in different ways.

I don't have Basic Technical Japanese but I do have Comprehending Technical Japanese which is by the same author and basically the same book but without the basic Japanese intro at the beginning. This might be a better choice if you have other textbooks to learn grammar from.

The book itself I think is very good and I really enjoy using it

This link might be useful, it has a summary of various textbooks to teach technical Japanese: http://examples.oreilly.com/cjkvinfo/doc...-books.txt

I know this isn't the right thread but, can anyone recommend books on mastering keigo. I always like the polite way of saying stuff in Japanese but I do know all the bad stuff to say in Japanese lol.
I can implement keigo sentences into my new format my srs decks.

ta12121 Wrote:I know this isn't the right thread but, can anyone recommend books on mastering keigo. I always like the polite way of saying stuff in Japanese but I do know all the bad stuff to say in Japanese lol.
I can implement keigo sentences into my new format my srs decks.

I was looking around and found this book called Nihongo Keigo Training (w/CD) Haven't you also been planning on getting The Routledge Course in Japanese Translation? Or am I mistaking you with someone else? In case I am not, this book is on sale now, and I thought I let you know. I am looking forward to the arrival of my copy which should be tomorrow.

I'm totally fine with any keigo questions ;-)

as my potential internship in Japan nears, I will probably need books on that as well.
So discuss away!

jishera , Well, if you're just beginning with Japanese, I don't think you have to wait on starting with "Basic Technical Japanese". It is actually written for those who know next to nothing about Japanese, so it starts with an introduction of the different characters etc. And then goes on with really basic Japanese like "A is B" and then it builds up from there.

Though, for daily conversations I'm not sure if it's very useful, which is why I'd use it as a supplement and not my main text.

I took a look at "Japanese for Everyone", and it looks really interesting, especially because of the price and the positive reviews on here so I'll have to think about whether I'll go for compact and affordable or (the opposite of compact) and expensive...

Putting cat, I have taken a look at "Comprehending Technical Japanese", but at the moment I seem to lean more towards "Basic Technical Japanese" as a new version has come out last year in December. And since both contain somewhat the same material… But I'll compare them one last time :-)

thanks for the link! I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but the authors also have a "intermediate technical Japanese" book. It consists of two books, I think one has the explanations and the other on the exercises/wordlists. You can get an e-book version of them for about €11 apiece at the book depository, which is a lot cheaper than the actual books. It might be worth a look once you've finished "Comprehending Technical Japanese".

nagereboshi, thank you for providing those examples! It's very useful to see them.
I might be able to get some of my penpals to look at my home work if I'm in doubt. Or for some of the exercises I might be able to use Google ;-)
and I can always solve the listening comprehension part by using those shadowing books and such.

I didn't realise it was printed by Amazon on… I did read something about how they are printed on demand, but I thought Cambridge press did that. Well, if I end up ordering these books, I'll just have to cross my fingers.: P
And I understand that most books cover the same stuff, which is why I'm having such a hard time deciding. Though, this book looks really promising.

by "level" I more or less meant beginner/intermediate/???. I'm not really focusing on the JLP T at the moment. I'll worry about that after I get in my dose of the basics. ;-)

Sorry for any errors, I need to retrain Dragon NaturallySpeaking and I am lazy in correcting every little mistake.

socks Wrote:Putting cat, I have taken a look at "Comprehending Technical Japanese", but at the moment I seem to lean more towards "Basic Technical Japanese" as a new version has come out last year in December. And since both contain somewhat the same material… But I'll compare them one last time :-)

thanks for the link! I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but the authors also have a "intermediate technical Japanese" book. It consists of two books, I think one has the explanations and the other on the exercises/wordlists. You can get an e-book version of them for about €11 apiece at the book depository, which is a lot cheaper than the actual books. It might be worth a look once you've finished "Comprehending Technical Japanese".

Thanks for the tip on Intermediate Technical Japanese, I didn't know about it. It'll probably be a while before I get time to finish Comprehending Technical Japanese though. My problem is that I'm not doing any science or science-related thing at the moment yet so it's hard to retain all the vocabulary. The grammar doesn't pose a problem so I've put it to one side for the time being.

Regarding the choice between Basic and Comprehending, this may be useful:

"By the way, the same authors have an earlier book, covering essentially the same ground with considerably more reading material, but without the more detailed explanations found in Basic Technical Japanese. This book is called Comprehending Technical Japanese, and, if still in print, should be available from the same sources."

From here: http://www.kanjiclinic.com/reviewkanjiflash.htm

p.s. Putting cat??? It's Pudding cat! PUDDING!! Oh I see you're using Dragon Naturally Speaking. You are excused

socks Wrote:And I understand that most books cover the same stuff, which is why I'm having such a hard time deciding. Though, this book looks really promising.

by "level" I more or less meant beginner/intermediate/???. I'm not really focusing on the JLP T at the moment. I'll worry about that after I get in my dose of the basics. ;-)

It is aimed at beginners. Most books are, Genki, Minna no Nihongo, Japanese the Manga Way and all the other books. An Introduction to Modern Japanese has some weaknesses you should be aware of. There are dialogues in Kanji / Kana, and there are romanized ones in every other lesson in a section called "key to conversation." Even in Lesson 52 you will still find dialogues in romanized form. One would think that, by the time you reach L.52, you no longer need romanization.

There is also no furigana in this book for words written in Kanji. So you will have to refer to the second book, or learn the words from other sources, to be able to read the sentences in book one. You could use the romanized version for the dialogues, but not for the sentences that demonstrate grammar points. The vocabulary list has also a weakness. Instead of having the word in Kanji, then Kana, English, they choose Romaji - Kanji - English. Even for words in Kana they have Romaji first - Kana second - English last. tada - ただ - but, however.

Colloquial Japanese Wrote:There are other books that are far worse when it comes to the use or abuse of romaji. I am thinking of Colloquial Japanese - The Complete Course for Beginners. And this is a horrible book. This book uses Kanji, Kana and Romaji in dialogues and even vocab lists throughout the book. Here is an example.

shitsureいshiまta - shitsúrei shimashita - pardon me, I'm sorry, it was rude of me, etc. The shi in shitsurei shimashita is missing in the original as well. Next comes a word in Kanji 本 - hón - book.

In the first couple of lessons they are using romaji in the middle of sentences. And this is far worse then the vocabulary mixed with romaji.

山下: おとうさん　ちちと　ははです。
クーパー: おとうさんは　わかい　ですねえ。
山下：　ええ、げんきです。teni スと gorufu が　好きです。

I mean, really? It is a weird mix of kana, kanji, romaji all over the book. At least they stop doing it in dialogues or sentences after some chapters. But for most of the chapters they keep using words in kana instead of kanji, even though they introduce plenty of them.

Compared to that, An Introduction to Modern Japanese is a really good book, since it covers many topics and will get you far. But by using Romaji, instead of increasing the use of Kana / Kanji over the course of 52 lessons, I think they fail the self-proclaimed aim of the book. Being able to read Japanese newspapers by the end of 6 months or 1 year.

Do you know why you became bored with Genki? Too repetitive? If that's the case, I think you will have problems with most textbooks in general. They all have a similar format for the entire book. Are you at a stage where you can start reading graded readers to mix things up? Or do you think it is just Genki?

If you want something faster-paced then Genki, JFE might work for you then. Unfortunately I don't think Amazon has a very good sample of the book. They only give you the introduction and appendix. You could find a copy online to preview the book and then buy it if you like it. But again, it is a textbook so it's going to have the same format for 27 chapters :/.

Nagareboshi Wrote:

ta12121 Wrote:I know this isn't the right thread but, can anyone recommend books on mastering keigo. I always like the polite way of saying stuff in Japanese but I do know all the bad stuff to say in Japanese lol.
I can implement keigo sentences into my new format my srs decks.

I was looking around and found this book called Nihongo Keigo Training (w/CD) Haven't you also been planning on getting The Routledge Course in Japanese Translation? Or am I mistaking you with someone else? In case I am not, this book is on sale now, and I thought I let you know. I am looking forward to the arrival of my copy which should be tomorrow.

well I am trying to get better at translation/transcribing. I want to give myself a few months to improve it and possible 1 year to get it advanced(it's possible).

Oh yea I updated my 25 month progress report(if you haven't read it already). I gave a list of methods I have tried and scrapped and why they worked/didn't work.

I have 'Introduction to Modern Japanese', but I did not learn from it in my self-study attempts because of the 'undecipherable' Kanji, because as Nagareboshi mentioned the vocabulary and kanji are essentially not taught in the book.

Not that they are really that hard to look up, but at the time I didn't know where or how and had no instructor, and the book is really not designed for self-study. Today, with a pocket electronic dictionary and a browser full of bookmarks it doesn't sound like much of a barrier at all, so.... if you already have those things you'll be fine.

Those drawbacks mentioned, I did read it cover-to-cover after having finished two years of Japanese study in college with a different book. As a book that explains grammar, it's really very good and explains things quite clearly with quite comprehensible examples. The dialogues are, however, pretty much... textbook dialogues. Sort of like the slower scenes in a serialized drama but without ever reaching the exciting bits.

It is, of course, in British English even if you buy it in America, and there are a few passages where that could be misleading if you read the English translation as American English. I don't remember where they are precisely, but I remember noting them as I read through the book.

jishera, I don't think I get bored with textbooks that fast, I mean I managed to make it to chapter 7 of "Japanese for busy people"(doing the regular textbook and the workbook), even though I wanted to set fire to that book many, many times.

I think I basically got bored with "Genki" because I made myself repeat those lessons so often. I mean going over a lesson a second time, that's fine, but repeating every single bit of it 2,3,4 times…. That's kind of overkill, I realise that now:p

I like your idea of adding graded readers though. I have been looking into them and I think I might be able to get away with reading first grader books. Like the なぜ？どうして？series. A big font, with very little Kanji:p it will at least make me feel like I can actually use my Japanese for something, even though it's still rather crappy.

I also got some Kanji drill books for little kids to learn some extra vocabulary and practice my Kanji, which are still on the way (though I'm still doing Heisig, so I might wait a month or two before starting those).


I'm still kind of stuck on whether I should get "Japanese for Everyone" or "Introduction to Modern Japanese". I mean, one is really affordable but I'm afraid that with almost half the amount of lessons of "Introduction to Modern Japanese", the lessons might go too fast for me.

The other one is really expensive, but with 52 lessons, it doesn't seem as overwhelming. But the romaji is a bit of a turn off, though I plan on putting the vocabulary in Anki, so if I've learned my vocabulary well, before starting the lesson, the romaji shouldn't be a problem.

Both seem to be good to study from…. (From what I've read on here and on Amazon).

Whichever book I choose, it's always cheaper than the Japanese lessons at the nearby University. They ask around €300 to do four chapters of "Genki" in 12 weeks. That is just madness! Otherwise I would have taken lessons there, despite the book being "Genki"

Maybe I'll try to find a preview for "Japanese for Everyone", then I might be able to do a chapter from there. And if I like it I can get it and if I don't, I can just get the expensive books.

I want to order the books over the weekend though, as I want to get started as fast as possible since I'm planning a trip to Japan this summer

ta12121, thanks for the tip. I quickly skimmed through your thread, and it seems very interesting. When I have a bit more time tonight, I will definitely take my time to read through it.
I think my biggest problem is making myself burn out very quickly, so I'll gladly take any tips on avoiding that


(pudding cat, sorry about that:p Thanks again for the link I might just have to go for the older book with more texts to go through...)

I've heard Bowring and Laurie is a pretty complete package. Don't they claim you will be able to read a newspaper after finishing it? I guess that's why it is so expensive. I think I'd really have to like a textbook to stick through it for more than 50 chapters.

Or you could just buy JFE and then get an intermediate/advanced textbook to learn more.

Yeah, I'd definitely try to find a copy online of both and look through a few of the chapters and see if you like the format. Especially since Bowring and Laurie is so expensive! You can also see if JFE is too easy for your level.

I just recently found the なぜ？どうして？ series online and I got very excited! I have the first grade version of the "Stories" book (the cover with the orange cat). I can only read a little at this point and very slowly but it's still cool :-). They have one with biographies and other tales, too. It looks like a very cute series of books and is cheaper than the Japanese Graded Reader series (and I think it has more content per book too).

i dunno why the newspaper is always the gold standard for judging a person's reading ability.

the problem is that when you finally read the newspaper, it's always about domestic japanese issues that have nothing to do with you so it can be pretty boring. =)

kainzero Wrote:i dunno why the newspaper is always the gold standard for judging a person's reading ability.

the problem is that when you finally read the newspaper, it's always about domestic japanese issues that have nothing to do with you so it can be pretty boring. =)

It can be pretty interesting to read a Japanese perspective when a big international story that has to do with Japan is happening though, like when The Cove came out, or or course the earthquake/tsunami/radiation disaster.

Well, I managed to get a copy of "Japanese for Everyone" to look at. It does seem to go at a nice, fast pace. The only thing I really dislike about "Japanese for Everyone" is the cartoons and the fact that some of the vocabulary is scattered throughout the chapter. That's kind of what I disliked about JF BP. I like to have all my vocabulary in one place. But maybe I can scan the chapters in advance and compile my own vocabulary lists.

I do really like how and "Intoduction to Modern Japanese" immediately throws the kanji at you:p

But if "Japanese for Everyone" pretty much covers everything as "Intoduction to Modern Japanese" covers…

Maybe if it's not elaborate enough I could combine it. I could combine it with "dictionary of basic Japanese grammar" and the "Basic Technical Japanese" book. And I would still save money, even though it's only a few pounds but…

How does that sound?
Because I can always build up my vocabulary with C 2000.

I think someone mentioned either in this thread or another one, that Modern Japanese covers about 1000 kanji and 3000 words. JFE covers about 450 kanji and 2500 words.

Since Modern Japanese has more kanji, it probably has more vocab words that include kanji. But like you said, you can always build vocab separately, and that's what I'm going to do once I finish RTK.

I have no clue if Modern Japanese covers more grammar than JFE. Maybe compare the table of contents (you can do this on amazon)? Modern japanese is much longer, but that may be because of the explanations.

It looks like Modern Japanese is more "complete" than JFE in terms of kanji and grammar explanations, but of course that doesn't mean it is better overall for you. I use the grammar dictionary series and look up things online if something doesn't make sense.

They look like very different books :-). Guess you'll just have to keep weighing pros and cons until you can decide! I always do a table in cases like this with all the various parameters (number of kanji, vocab, grammar explanation (by example or through detailed explanation), layout, answers in back?, quality of the exercises, price, etc.) and then rate how important they are to you and fill out each section for both books. Doing this often makes the "answer" obvious. Or maybe it won't.

If you are going to do RTK anyway, then the fact that Modern Japanese has more kanji doesn't matter as much (unless you want extra practice). I have no idea whether learning kanji in the textbook and learning them in RTK at the same time would be conflicting. It's something that Heisig warns readers about, but I think it depends on the person. Since JFE introduces kanji gradually I haven't had much of a problem so far, especially since I'm mainly focusing on RTK right now and not grammar .

But like Nagareboshi said, both of these are good textbooks and you'll learn similar things.

I actually like the little pictures in JFE :-). It keeps me more entertained when I'm doing the exercises. I agree that they are cheesy though, and I also wish all the vocab were in one list per chapter, but I'd say 95% of it is contained in the large list in the beginning of the chapter and the mini-lists, so it isn't too bad. It's also nice being able to see the definitions on the same page as the exercises.

It's pretty easy to look ahead and grab all the vocab for the chapter. I started using the corePlus deck from Anki and adding a JFE tag with the chapter number. That way the vocab has premade audio for it . Unfortunately I got sick of searching for vocab in the deck and I think I'm just going to memorize the majority of it the old fashioned way. While it's faster than making your own cards from scratch, it still took a while to do it and I'm impatient about such things. I'll go through corePlus eventually so anything that didn't stick will be reinforced.