Sorry if this is the wrong forum, but thought it's quite relevant to many here who dream of going to Japan, so..

My girlfriend's visa runs out in August, and she wants to move back to Taiwan, and me to go with her. In many ways it's an obvious choice; I don't currently have a steady job here (the UK economy is still in bad shape), we'll be able to live rent free in a house her parents own, and of course I love her!

But at the same time I'm very hesitant; I can't speak any Chinese, not sure how I'd cope without my friends/family, and I really reaaally don't want to teach English (I have an undergrad and a Masters in computer related fields, and 7 years of network admin experience). Also I'm 30, so worried I'm too old to get some jobs (and will find it hard to find work if I then come back to the UK in 6-12 months time).

So, are there many people here who moved abroad without a job or any plan lined up, and how did it work out for you? I'd like to hear success and horror stories! Thing is, if it were anyone else I'd say go for it, but whole different story when it's MY life..argh..

I don't have anything of real value to contribute, but Taiwan is a beautiful country and I'm sure you'd enjoy it. I personally like it more than Japan in some respects.

Sounds like a great opportunity to learn chinese!

Do you own a house in the UK? Is your current job on a fixed term contract? What commitments, securities and relationships would you be giving up if you moved away?

And I have to say, nowhere in the world is 30 too old to get a job! Except as a child labourer.

As you say, you can come back in 6-12 months time if you don't settle well out there. It is really easy to explain to potential employers in the UK too. Jobs here were scarce, you had an chance to visit Taiwan and explore opportinities there, you didn't like it so you came back. It's not like you're 70, taking a year out when you're 30 is perfectly acceptable.

It sounds like you're quite qualified, is there a particular line of work you're looking for? If you're just casting around for any job, you're less likely to find one than if you focus on something specific and become passionate about it. Not that that's relevant to moving to Taiwan.

Won't marriage solve the problem? If you are willing to move to a different country for each other, it seems marriage is the easier option. Then she can stay a little more, while you learn Chinese and get better prepared for an eventual move to Taiwan.

I'd say go for it, 30 is the new 20 You're still young, you're not settled, when are you supposed to have your adventure? Its either now or never once you settle in (kids, houses, mortgages etc.).

The only problem I can see with this is that Taiwan probably isn't the best paying country in the world so despite being able to live there with no problems, it wouldn't be that great once you look at your salary through some exchange rates and see your real buying power (and this is important if you like to travel, have holidays abroad, import stuff or want to retire early at some banana republic).
But as I understand, your girlfriend speaks Chinese, you speak English, why not try Hong Kong or Singapore? Both have fantastic economies, job opportunities and unprecedented growth speed & potential and a real free market as opposed to US or Europe. Also these locations could be interesting for your girlfriend too (hopefully she is not homesick).

This year I'm going on my own adventure: I quit my well paid & stable job, take a mini retirement and later go to Japan for a while. If I like it there I'll try to find a decent job and stay a while. If it doesn't work out my "backup" plan is Hong Kong, Singapore and as a last resort Australia (this is the "easy" button when everything else fails).
I want to live a little and escape 9 to 5 for a while at least even if it means substituting it with 9 to 9 in Japan

thecite Wrote:I don't have anything of real value to contribute, but Taiwan is a beautiful country and I'm sure you'd enjoy it. I personally like it more than Japan in some respects.

It's actually quite alot like Japan in some respects; they even have maid cafes lol

Blahah Wrote:Do you own a house in the UK? Is your current job on a fixed term contract? What commitments, securities and relationships would you be giving up if you moved away?

No financial commitments, flat tenancy runs out in June, no current job contract. All good to go, except leaving all my family and friends behind..

Blahah Wrote:It sounds like you're quite qualified, is there a particular line of work you're looking for? If you're just casting around for any job, you're less likely to find one than if you focus on something specific and become passionate about it. Not that that's relevant to moving to Taiwan.

Anything IT related; have worked as a programmer and as a sysadmin. Some sort of IT related translation job would be cool, but I really need to learn mandarin..

SheekuAltair Wrote:Won't marriage solve the problem? If you are willing to move to a different country for each other, it seems marriage is the easier option. Then she can stay a little more, while you learn Chinese and get better prepared for an eventual move to Taiwan.

thurd Wrote:But as I understand, your girlfriend speaks Chinese, you speak English, why not try Hong Kong or Singapore? Both have fantastic economies, job opportunities and unprecedented growth speed & potential and a real free market as opposed to US or Europe. Also these locations could be interesting for your girlfriend too (hopefully she is not homesick)

We've talked about marriage, and going to other countries; yes it's an option but she really wants to go home. Also she's a graphic designer but her speaking and written English is pretty bad, so she can't find work here, but she'll easily find a great job in Taiwan (she good bit of work experience there).

I think it's a great opportunity, but honestly I've never lived outside of London, let alone the UK! My main hobbies are hanging out with friends at the pub or going to see live music..not sure if I'll be able to do that anymore, scary. Anyway lots of encouragement here, thanks peeps

Just give it a shot and see how it works out!
If it turns out badly, its not the end of the world, especially if you don't have a lot that you are giving up.

aphasiac Wrote:I think it's a great opportunity, but honestly I've never lived outside of London, let alone the UK! My main hobbies are hanging out with friends at the pub or going to see live music..not sure if I'll be able to do that anymore, scary.

Not gonna lie to you, it won't be easy. My background is the exact opposite, I had lived in six different cities in four different countries on three different continents before I turned nineteen, and yet I still found it extremely hard to readjust when I got into a situation similar to yours. Due to financial circumstances I had to transfer to a university in Russia after having studied for a year in the US. I had not lived in Russia since I was six years old, so I had no friends there aside from my extended family (and the only good thing is that I have a huge and very close-knit extended family), while all my close friends were in different countries. Sure, I already knew the language, but that did not save me from experiencing major culture shock. Since Russian culture is technically my native culture, that culture shock evolved into cultural cringe that I never got over and probably never will. I am also awful at making new friends, in fact I still haven't made any real friends here, even though nearly two years have passed since my transfer. Thanks to all of this I was in a nearly constant state of depression for nearly half a year - I got over it after I became obsessed with Japanese.

I guess what I am trying to say is that you should be prepared for some difficulties. Maybe it won't be as emotional as it was for me, especially if you are good at making friends, but at least I did not have to worry about learning the local language or finding a job. I suggest you follow Blahah's advice and plan a trial period of 6-12 months, and then go back to London if it doesn't work out. I wish you the best of luck, and sincerely hope that you don't end up hating your girlfriend's homeland as much as I hate Russia right now.

Go ahead! There'd be awesome live music in tw too

Better to regret doing it than not do it, and have the dreadful moment when you're 45, laying awake at 3 am, staring at the ceiling, wondering, "Why the HELL didn't I go to Taiwan when I had the chance?"

It's not like you have anything else lined up right now, anyway. Might as well have some adventure. It's easier to recover from a screw-up when you're younger, anyway.

I'm going to mention Taiwanese (dialect of Mandarin) because it's seems relatively unmentioned here.

Taiwanese is the softest Chinese dialect -- the tones are less jarring and the 'h' and 'er' sounds aren't so hideous as they would be in Mainland. Traditional characters are very similar to Japanese kanji but there are some differences. (会VS會) Since EVERYthing is directed towards Mandarin used in Mainland China I think this would be of purpose.

http://www.yellowbridge.com/chinese/mand...rences.php

Also, don't go swimming in a public pool. I have heard many terrible stories about them.

rich_f Wrote:Better to regret doing it than not do it, and have the dreadful moment when you're 45, laying awake at 3 am, staring at the ceiling, wondering, "Why the HELL didn't I go to Taiwan when I had the chance?"

It's not like you have anything else lined up right now, anyway. Might as well have some adventure. It's easier to recover from a screw-up when you're younger, anyway.

scary...

Even if it ends up sucking; you'll gain a good deal of life experience.

vonPeterhof Wrote:Since Russian culture is technically my native culture, that culture shock evolved into cultural cringe that I never got over and probably never will. I am also awful at making new friends, in fact I still haven't made any real friends here

Dude, if you're in Saint Petersburg let's go out for a beer and discuss the finer points of RTK or something.

To aphasiac, if nothing is holding you back, don't hold yourself back. Go and see where it takes you.

aphasiac Wrote:I think it's a great opportunity, but honestly I've never lived outside of London, let alone the UK! My main hobbies are hanging out with friends at the pub or going to see live music..not sure if I'll be able to do that anymore, scary. Anyway lots of encouragement here, thanks peeps

Go for it, man! Taiwan is really nice, the people are nice, your kanji chops are going to be amazing after a year (no hiragana or katakana to distract you, and thousands more to learn), the food is great, and yes, you can hang out at the pub and see live music.

Main downsides to Taiwan:

1) too many scooters, despite an excellent public transportation system (you'll never miss the tube), and

2) salaries are not so great, so if you stay too long (like 5+ years) it'll be hard to move elsewhere.

Hey, cheers for responses. I'll be living in Taichung, with the option of moving to Taipei if IT jobs are more available there. Was hoping that cheap rent (free in Taichung) and cheap food will make up for lower wages..

Now really thinking about going for it, though new 2 concerns:
1) Don't have enough money at the moment - need to get a new job and save before august..
2) Will probably have to give studying Japanese; no real point as it's now just a hobby. Problem is I haven't found any Chinese media I like yet; the dramas my gf watches are all really cheesy, and the variety shows are just embarrassing! Will have to dig deeper..

aphasiac Wrote:Will probably have to give studying Japanese; no real point as it's now just a hobby. Problem is I haven't found any Chinese media I like yet; the dramas my gf watches are all really cheesy, and the variety shows are just embarrassing! Will have to dig deeper..

I believe English and Japanese are the most popular foreign languages in Taiwan, so your knowledge of Japanese might be useful for you there, depending on your current level. And if you don't find any Chinese media you like, a lot of anime and j-dramas get dubbed in Taiwan, so you could always go for that.

@aphasiac, I haven't taken that step and moved abroad (yet), but everything you are thinking through I have as well. My wife is from Taiwan (Taipei), and we are seriously considering moving abroad. Perhaps back to Taiwan, or perhaps to Japan or Germany which offers better job prospects for me. I also work in a computer field with an IT background. So from that perspective, let me say this:

1) Don't even consider working for a Taiwanese company. I mean you could, but why bother? You don't speak Mandarin and the pay would be pitiful. Besides, you're a network admin specialist: you're job can be done from anywhere in the world, as long as there is a fast internet connection. I would start exploiting your industry connections NOW to get some remote consulting gigs doing network admin stuff for European and American companies. You could live like a king in Taiwan with a part-time consulting gig that pays GBP, EUR, or USD. Do that full time and you could both live well and save a nice nest egg. It's entirely possible--I've done the research on it. That was my plan before I landed my current desk job (at NASA, which was simply too good to pass up). It's still our plan for a few years out.

2) Taiwanese LOVE everything about Japan. Taiwan has also been influenced deeply and heavily by Japanese culture in all aspects. Remember, Taiwan was a colony of Japan for 50 years, but both the acquisition and secession were by international treaty (Taiwan was not invaded), so their experience of it was rather positive compared to other Japanese possessions of the time. It's not uncommon to find older people from that generation that speak Japanese quite fluently, and even some younger generations have carried on speaking it natively to give their kids an advantage (rare, but not unheard of).

Anyway, the point is the native Taiwanese don't hold any long-standing grudge against Japan, Japanese culture, or Japanese people. In fact, they are totally infatuated with it, and some of the most popular things in Taiwan (food, beauty products, fashion, TV shows) are from or heavily influenced by Japan. Japan is still (I think) the #1 foreign tourist destination for the Taiwanese. If nothing else, keeping up with your Japanese could be an endless source of conversation starters.

3) You'll have to learn Mandarin, and don't waste your time on Taiwanese. Unless that is what your gf's family speaks, in which case learn Mandarin FIRST, then Taiwanese. The name “Taiwanese” is misleading to foreigners, who sometimes think it is the universal language of the island or some other nonsense. It's not. It is just one dialect among many spoken (train announcements in Taipei are in four languages), but carries the name “Taiwanese” because it is the Chinese dialect with the largest ties to the island. That said, it is the most widely spoken non-Mandarin dialect, and you'll find plenty of people that speak it (and many who don't!).

It's like Spanish in the American southwest.. which is probably a bad example if you're from London, but the image Hollywood projects is good enough. Spanish is a street language here in California, spoken by many people. Most of my neighbors speak Spanish natively or as a second language. In certain situations (restaurants, government clerks, healthcare) you can even get away assuming that someone will understand Spanish--knowing it is often a requirement of the job. But sometimes they don't. And certainly random people on the street may or may not speak it to varying levels. It's the same with Taiwanese and Mandarin in Taiwan. Taiwanese is not the native language of all cultural groups native to Taiwan, nor is it widely spoken among the mainlanders that arrived in 1949. Mandarin is the official language of Taiwan, spoken by everyone, and what you should focus on (first).


Anyway, best of luck to you, whatever you do.

As an old man here (37)...let me say. You should go now! Do not look back. Live your life/dreams. The biggest regrets I have in my life are not taking a chance.

Thanks again for all the replies peeps, lots of good advice here

mafried Wrote:1) Don't even consider working for a Taiwanese company. I mean you could, but why bother? You don't speak Mandarin and the pay would be pitiful. Besides, you're a network admin specialist: you're job can be done from anywhere in the world, as long as there is a fast internet connection. I would start exploiting your industry connections NOW to get some remote consulting gigs doing network admin stuff for European and American companies. You could live like a king in Taiwan with a part-time consulting gig that pays GBP, EUR, or USD. Do that full time and you could both live well and save a nice nest egg.

Interesting idea, though don't think I have time to build a consultancy business before I leave; I just don't have enough links. However, I have been working as a contract programmer for the past year, so in theory I could continue taking contracts from the UK - assuming people would still hire me..

Realistically though, I would be happy with a taiwanese IT job; yes wages will be lower, but so will cost of living in comparison. You have no idea how expensive it is to live in London or the UK in general; taxes, food and house prices are so high I will feel better off. There are quite a few international companies there, so maybe might get lucky speaking no Mandarin..

mafried Wrote:3) You'll have to learn Mandarin, and don't waste your time on Taiwanese. Unless that is what your gf's family speaks, in which case learn Mandarin FIRST, then Taiwanese. The name “Taiwanese” is misleading to foreigners, who sometimes think it is the universal language of the island or some other nonsense. It's not. It is just one dialect among many spoken (train announcements in Taipei are in four languages), but carries the name “Taiwanese” because it is the Chinese dialect with the largest ties to the island. That said, it is the most widely spoken non-Mandarin dialect, and you'll find plenty of people that speak it (and many who don't!).

Thanks, this was my plan! Study mandarin, and then pick up any differences in Taiwanese dialect later on.

tokyostyle Wrote:You should absolutely not even be considering this. Everything you have described to us is a huge setup for complete failure. You don't want to live in Taiwan forever so why would you consider a choice where you are completely dependent on you friend's family?

Actually I'd be happy to live in Taiwan forever if I like it..! I'm quite open to all possibilities.

"Setting up for failure" , i don't see how. Worst thing that can happen is I don't find a job, extend my landing visa to 180 days and then have to do a visa run to Hong Kong or Japan (turns out due to my UK visa exempt status, with repeated visa runs I basically can stay indefinitely). At the very worst I'll return home with Chinese skills and some interesting stories to tell.

Superfreek Wrote:As an old man here (37)...let me say. You should go now! Do not look back. Live your life/dreams. The biggest regrets I have in my life are not taking a chance.

Thanks!!! So right...but still such a scary choice

aphasiac Wrote:Worst thing that can happen is I don't find a job, extend my landing visa to 180 days and then have to do a visa run to Hong Kong or Japan (turns out due to my UK visa exempt status, with repeated visa runs I basically can stay indefinitely)

How does this work, exactly? I don't know anything about it, to be honest, but I heard they started cracking down on this kind of stuff.

And if it works with an American or Swiss passport?

Asriel Wrote:

aphasiac Wrote:Worst thing that can happen is I don't find a job, extend my landing visa to 180 days and then have to do a visa run to Hong Kong or Japan (turns out due to my UK visa exempt status, with repeated visa runs I basically can stay indefinitely)

How does this work, exactly? I don't know anything about it, to be honest, but I heard they started cracking down on this kind of stuff.

And if it works with an American or Swiss passport?

It's the same as a tourist visa. Japan has a similar policy. In Japan for example the tourist visa for Americans is 90 days. As long as you leave the country before those 90 days are up, you can hop on the first flight back and the clock restarts. Taiwan's visitor visa (for americans--maybe for brits too?) is 90 days with an in-country extension to 180 days. It's good for five years, and once again if you leave the country and return the clock resets.

My brother-in-law did that for some years in Taiwan with an American passport. He'd just hop a flight over to Hong Kong and back every time his visa was up. He even worked as a English teacher at the time.

Of course, you should contact your respective embassy or immigration lawyer for details.

aphasiac Wrote:Thanks, this was my plan! Study mandarin, and then pick up any differences in Taiwanese dialect later on.

According to Wikipedia "Mandarin and Amoy Min Nan [a Chinese dialect that is mutually intelligible to Taiwanese] are 62% phonetically similar and 15.1% lexically similar. In comparison, German and English are 60% lexically similar." That's quite a lot of differences to pick up!

vonPeterhof Wrote:According to Wikipedia "Mandarin and Amoy Min Nan [a Chinese dialect that is mutually intelligible to Taiwanese] are 62% phonetically similar and 15.1% lexically similar. In comparison, German and English are 60% lexically similar." That's quite a lot of differences to pick up!

Yikes, thanks for that!

Actually I meant I'd pick up the differences between standard Mandarin and Taiwanese mandarin (there are slight differences in accent). This link and this confirms it's definitely not worth bother learning proper Taiwanese:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Taiwan

By all means learn the differences, but try to speak good standard Mandarin. If someone were learning English and moving to Liverpool, would you recommend that they learn to mimic Liverpudlian or standard BBC English? Same goes for Chinese, no matter where you live. You will be well regarded if you can speak the language as it is spoken on the news and official media.

And yeah, Taiwanese is a very distantly related language. The word 'dialect' is a complete misnomer.