I tend to agree that people's disdain for romaji is unwarranted, bordering on paranoid. It's not "wrong," and in fact all Japanese children learn it as it's the primary way of inputting Japanese into a computer using the standard QWERTY board. Almost all Japanese classes nowadays will wean students off of romaji fairly quickly anyways, but I've seen some learners use only kana for YEARS. Talk about a crutch.

Let's face it, anyone who gets stuck using romaji was never a serious student to begin with.

Tzadeck Wrote:Learning English by katakana is detrimental to your English, because it's teaching you wrong pronunciation. Learning Japanese with romaji is NOT. It's merely using a system of reading and writing that is not used by native speakers of the language. You might think that this would never me useful, but in certain situations and with certain goals it can be.

That's actually not true. Romaji is definitely detrimental since tons of people make up retarded rules like "ru and u verbs" which doesn't make any sense, since it's a grammatical rule based on romaji. The logic in Japanese is lost when romaji is used. た turning into ち makes perfect sense, ta turning into chi doesn't. Where did the t go??

Japanese is a open syllabic language, writing it with a latin alphabet makes little sense.

Tobberoth Wrote:

Tzadeck Wrote:Learning English by katakana is detrimental to your English, because it's teaching you wrong pronunciation. Learning Japanese with romaji is NOT. It's merely using a system of reading and writing that is not used by native speakers of the language. You might think that this would never me useful, but in certain situations and with certain goals it can be.

That's actually not true. Romaji is definitely detrimental since tons of people make up retarded rules like "ru and u verbs" which doesn't make any sense, since it's a grammatical rule based on romaji. The logic in Japanese is lost when romaji is used. た turning into ち makes perfect sense, ta turning into chi doesn't. Where did the t go??

Japanese is a open syllabic language, writing it with a latin alphabet makes little sense.

As you know, Japanese was a spoken language for a long time before it became a spoken and written language. They adopted Chinese characters and simplified version of them to write down their language. Romaji is just a different way to write Japanese, and it happens to be a way of writing Japanese that is not used for ordinary communication by people who are fluent in Japanese, and certainly not by people who are native speakers. However, it is used SOMETIMES even by native speakers. Not only in typing, mind you, as you often seen words written in romaji on various products or buildings.

'Ru' and 'U' are meant to represent sounds, and we know very well what they mean in spoken language even though they're not Japanese text. It so happens that Japanese linguists themselves usually make the distinction between the two types of verbs ending in る, and they often use romaji or a phonetic alphabet to represent them. That is, it's a distinction made in spoken grammar, and you can express it with whatever writing system you choose. It so happens that this is one distinction that can be expressed into neater categories when using phonetic symbols or romaji rather than kana. The distinction makes sense, and is not 'based' on romaji--it's very real and is 'based' on spoken Japanese. I don't see how knowing this distinction is 'detrimental' to anyone's Japanese.

As for your last point, there are romanization systems which write 'chi' as 'ti.'

The romaji-Japanese/katakana-english comparison is only superficial, of course, as they are detrimental in different ways, IMO.
It's not that romaji can't express the Japanese sounds, but it requires more work for the reader. In other words it's easy to make mistakes.
When the learner reads romaji words like "jinrui" or "houbei", he'll be inclined to make tons of wrong assumptions. For example, he may think that the "n" and "r" in them are actually pronounced n and r, while it is not so. On the other hand, if he learned an entirely new character for each, like ん or る, he'd naturally be inclined to use their specific and natural pronunciation.
Similarly, he may pronounce "hou" and "bei" in many ways, depending on his L1, but probably not in the correct, Japanese-exclusive way. Sure, a lot of study will tell him how to sort out the long vowels any way, but using the kana makes it an obvious necessity.

Another negative thing about romaji is that there are many variants. Some of them use symbols (macrons, accents, diacritical marks), others don't. So the learner, supposing he is aware of and educated in all of them, still has to find out which one is being used in each case.

In the end, while it's true that kana were introduced late, I don't agree that romaji is just another equivalent representation of the sounds. Japanese speakers think of Japanese words in syllables, not in letters. Each syllable is a single sound for them, and that is proved by the fact that they are usually unable to pronounce consonants on their own. So using western letters is totally unnatural.

Having said all that, I agree that the "romaji hatred" may be a socially reinforced phenomenon. Also, hatred is never good. But that still doesn't make it an unfounded opinion.

Codexus Wrote:

alyks Wrote:"ボブは日本に行った" is so boring. Can we have a more interesting example sentence?
How about "ボブはサド・マゾ遊びが好き"

I fail to see how the second sentence is fundamentally more interesting than the first. Both state a random fact about the same character who has no other attribute than his first name.

Facepalm.

Tzadeck, thank you for your accurate and informative dose of sanity.

I don't know where this debate about romaji vs. kana came about, or what it is that is using romaji, but what's the big deal...honestly?

If you're a serious student of Japanese you are going to learn to learn kana and kanji. You're not going to rely on romaji the entire time, because then you'll never learn how to read.

Just because a resource uses romaji doesn't necessarily make it bad. Especially once you're "fluent" in hiragana, it's not like reading some romaji will all of a sudden make you forget Japanese. Have you forgotten how to read English just because you're practicing reading in Japanese?

On the same token, you're not actually going to learn Japanese if you just use romaji. That's just silly.

The problem is that if you want a book with good in-depth English explanations of Japanese grammar, it's really hard to beat "A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar," and just about every single book that Kodansha puts out in its grammar series is chock full of romaji. I can't stand the stuff, either. It's an unwanted crutch and a distraction for anyone seriously trying to learn the language, and you can't persuade me otherwise. (Well, maybe with cash...)

Your only other alternative would be どんな時どんな使う日本語表現文型辞典 ISBN978-4-7574-1235-4, which runs about 2800 yen, by ALC. But as I said in my wall of text before, the explanations are rather abrupt in comparison. (The upside is that it's much cheaper, covers a lot more material, and is crammed full of Japanese.)

Or just use a black ball-point pen and remove the offending romaji. (Ball-point won't bleed through like magic marker does.)

rich_f Wrote:

harhol Wrote:Khatzumoto also suggests going kana -> Kanji because of the way it simulates spoken Japanese (you don't hear Kanji, after all), but that sounds very difficult.

It's difficult at first, but I've been doing it for a year now, and I don't find it that difficult anymore. I find I get more out of doing it than I did out of just passively reading a bunch of sentences like a turnip.

Interesting.... I think I'll probably split it 50/50 to begin with and see what happens. The difficulty certainly appeals to me, and it seems like a good way to get used to homonyms & the overall flow of the language.

As for romaji, they're only a problem if you haven't already learned hiragana & katakana. So long as when you see "ne" you think "ね", it shouldn't be too much of an issue.

Tzadeck Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:

Tzadeck Wrote:Learning English by katakana is detrimental to your English, because it's teaching you wrong pronunciation. Learning Japanese with romaji is NOT. It's merely using a system of reading and writing that is not used by native speakers of the language. You might think that this would never me useful, but in certain situations and with certain goals it can be.

That's actually not true. Romaji is definitely detrimental since tons of people make up retarded rules like "ru and u verbs" which doesn't make any sense, since it's a grammatical rule based on romaji. The logic in Japanese is lost when romaji is used. た turning into ち makes perfect sense, ta turning into chi doesn't. Where did the t go??

Japanese is a open syllabic language, writing it with a latin alphabet makes little sense.

As you know, Japanese was a spoken language for a long time before it became a spoken and written language. They adopted Chinese characters and simplified version of them to write down their language. Romaji is just a different way to write Japanese, and it happens to be a way of writing Japanese that is not used for ordinary communication by people who are fluent in Japanese, and certainly not by people who are native speakers. However, it is used SOMETIMES even by native speakers. Not only in typing, mind you, as you often seen words written in romaji on various products or buildings.

'Ru' and 'U' are meant to represent sounds, and we know very well what they mean in spoken language even though they're not Japanese text. It so happens that Japanese linguists themselves usually make the distinction between the two types of verbs ending in る, and they often use romaji or a phonetic alphabet to represent them. That is, it's a distinction made in spoken grammar, and you can express it with whatever writing system you choose. It so happens that this is one distinction that can be expressed into neater categories when using phonetic symbols or romaji rather than kana. The distinction makes sense, and is not 'based' on romaji--it's very real and is 'based' on spoken Japanese. I don't see how knowing this distinction is 'detrimental' to anyone's Japanese.

As for your last point, there are romanization systems which write 'chi' as 'ti.'

It's too different. Japanese people think in syllables, that's how their language is built up. Breaking it down into sounds may make it neater for someone thinking in English, but not for Japanese and not for me, and it's a bad habit to get into when you're a beginner.

Since when do Japanese linguists use romaji to represent them? Every paper I've read has used hiragana. Some places fortunately call them group 1 and group 2 verbs instead of "ru and u verbs". The problem isn't with the distinction of the groups, obviously the words of the different groups conjugate differently, the problem is the naming of the phenomenon. In Japanese, the distinction is made that godan verbs change between 5 different stages while ichidan verbs only has one stage. In English, the distinction is made that some verbs end in ru while other verbs end in u... wait, what? It's convoluted and confuses beginners. Thinking about the same phenomenon in kana is completely logical. Oh, the verb ends in つ and it's a 五段 meaning it moves between the stages たちつてと according to the あいうえお scheme. あ position is used for negative form so it becomes 立たない. In romaji? "It ends with u, so it's a u verb. That u needs to become an a for negative form so... tatsanai? No, that sounds wrong, let's remove the s." The problem is that one kana, a syllable, is a phoneme in Japanese, the smallest phonetic unit in a language that is capable of conveying a distinction in meaning. By using romaji, you're splitting these into smaller phonemes even though the kana IS the smallest unit. Again, it's perfectly possible to do this, it just doesn't make much sense and it's convoluted.

Romaji is a crutch. If linguists want to use it, they can do it all they want. The people who shouldn't use it are the beginners because it will confuse them when it comes to grammar and it will confuse them when it comes to pronunciation.

Just because romaji CAN represent Japanese doesn't mean one should.

I used romaji a lot before I learned kana, and in some ways, I think it actually helped me to focus more on the correct pronunciation and locking vocabulary in my mind rather than having to multi-task by processing a newly learned script at the same time. Just because the romaji consonants don't exactly reflect Japanese pronunciation, it's not really that much harder to remember the exceptions.

The one nice thing about romaji sources that I liked as a beginner was the fact they ALWAYS separate the words with spaces. Although some kana-focused beginner books space the words too, others do not, leaving you with more to be overwhelmed with as you get frustrated by the lack of spaces to clearly mark one newly-learned word from another. Aside from really minor issues, the only major problem with romaji is that it becomes a crutch for some later because there is a point of advancement where you should stop using it. But all it takes is a little extra willpower to propel yourself beyond that.

rich_f Wrote:The problem is that if you want a book with good in-depth English explanations of Japanese grammar, it's really hard to beat "A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar," and just about every single book that Kodansha puts out in its grammar series is chock full of romaji. I can't stand the stuff, either. It's an unwanted crutch and a distraction for anyone seriously trying to learn the language, and you can't persuade me otherwise. (Well, maybe with cash...)

I don't get it. You're telling me that there is a practical difference between the two? Are you saying that if I write "rāmen" instead of 「ラーメン」, you'll mispronounce the "r"? I prefer kana as much as the next guy, but that's just silly. It doesn't have to be in kana for me to know that "aoi" is three syllables. Really as long as the kanji form is given, it shouldn't matter for anyone here what system is used to indicate pronunciation, right? In fact, as one of the other posters pointed out, some romanji texts include more information to indicate intonation. I'd prefer that if given the option.

I don't know, but I think this discussion has gotten blown out of proportion. It's not that big of a deal. Do native speakers use them when reading and writing? No. If you're going on vacation to Japan for 2 weeks and want to memorize 20 phrases and then move on with your life, then, yes, romaji is fine. If you're learning/acquiring Japanese, then learn the flipping かな. It's not that hard, and I'm not sure I understand why one would practice reading fake Japanese (romaji) as opposed to real Japanese (かな　and 漢字).

As for "hatred" of romaji, I don't think people hate romaji itself--it's not intrinsically evil (if anything can be intrinsically evil ). It's just another method of representing sounds. Some people who are using かな hate it that other people use romaji because it's different from what they do. I don't know, but it seems like some form of pride...you know; they want their way of doing things to be right so they squash those who are doing things "wrong." Maybe it is wrong/inefficient (I think it is), but it doesn't warrant some form of egotistical hatred.

Tzadeck Wrote:every single Japanese sound can be expressed accurately in Romaji.

I disagree, actually. Just as the English R and L cannot be expressed very well at all in kana (certainly not properly with regard to accurate pronunciation), the Japanese ら　り　る　れ　ろ find absolutely nothing but kludges in Romaji. The very sound 'Romaji', in fact, cannot be accurately represented using Romaji, which is somewhat ironic, and emblematic of the problem. 'Ro' simply does not contain or in any way correspond to the sound expressed by ロ or ろ。

It's certainly "okay" to use Romaji when studying Japanese. But it's going to slow one down. People are always searching for and eager to take apparent shortcuts. This is one that I would avoid.

Wally Wrote:

Tzadeck Wrote:every single Japanese sound can be expressed accurately in Romaji.

I disagree, actually. Just as the English R and L cannot be expressed very well at all in kana (certainly not properly with regard to accurate pronunciation), the Japanese ら　り　る　れ　ろ find absolutely nothing but kludges in Romaji.

Romanji doesn't mean there have to be some mapping to the English language.... so i don't see your point.
It is a 1 to 1 mapping (with little differences in long vowels) to the kana so it has to be pronounced like the kana.

I'd say romaji is a legitimate shortcut for people who want to prioritize spoken Japanese and put written Japanese on the backburner for whatever reason. Although it took me only a few days to learn the kana, it took me several months of intense study before I was reading it as fast as romaji script. Using romaji a lot will definitely skew your language skills in a particular direction, but some people might prefer that. I had a strong tendency to burn out more when studying written Japanese through kana and kanji because it was overwhelming and my progress was slower overall, although perhaps "holistically" better.

Are you guys honestly telling me that every time you see "ru" you will forget the proper pronunciation whereas る does the trick? If so, I guess romaji isn't for you. If it just seems like something you will remember either way regardless of how is written (like me), romaji shouldn't hurt you in that respect. To each his own.

thorstenu Wrote:

Wally Wrote:

Tzadeck Wrote:every single Japanese sound can be expressed accurately in Romaji.

I disagree, actually. Just as the English R and L cannot be expressed very well at all in kana (certainly not properly with regard to accurate pronunciation), the Japanese ら　り　る　れ　ろ find absolutely nothing but kludges in Romaji.

Romanji doesn't mean there have to be some mapping to the English language.... so i don't see your point.
It is a 1 to 1 mapping (with little differences in long vowels) to the kana so it has to be pronounced like the kana.

Last time I checked, ローマ字 was not spelled with an n... Oh the irony.

For me, I preferr having the kana over ローマ字, mainly because of all the different ways to transcribe it. It also easily takes overhand when you have kana and ローマ字 next to each other.
The way I think of it is like this: Unlike [insert preferred Japanese visual media], there won't be subs/translations in real life, just like there will rarely be ローマ字 with real Japanese text.

Honestly though, this is going waaaaay off-topic. ^_^

mafried Wrote:

rich_f Wrote:The problem is that if you want a book with good in-depth English explanations of Japanese grammar, it's really hard to beat "A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar," and just about every single book that Kodansha puts out in its grammar series is chock full of romaji. I can't stand the stuff, either. It's an unwanted crutch and a distraction for anyone seriously trying to learn the language, and you can't persuade me otherwise. (Well, maybe with cash...)

I don't get it. You're telling me that there is a practical difference between the two? Are you saying that if I write "rāmen" instead of 「ラーメン」, you'll mispronounce the "r"? I prefer kana as much as the next guy, but that's just silly. It doesn't have to be in kana for me to know that "aoi" is three syllables. Really as long as the kanji form is given, it shouldn't matter for anyone here what system is used to indicate pronunciation, right? In fact, as one of the other posters pointed out, some romanji texts include more information to indicate intonation. I'd prefer that if given the option.

Actually, I wasn't talking to you, I was talking to Carolina, who is a beginner, and who is trying to learn the basics.

I understand that she is trying to learn kana and does not want the distraction of romaji, and I totally agree with her. Romaji is annoying. I don't have any scientific evidence of that, I just find it annoying when I'm trying to read the sentence in kana/kanji, and my eye is easily drawn to the nice big safe-looking text I already know how to read.

Reading the stuff in romaji doesn't help me spot the pattern in the next book I'm going to read, because the next book I read most likely won't use romaji. So no, it doesn't really help me at all.

The "romaji is bad for you" is a useful scare tactic created by teachers to get beginners to learn the kana. Ofcourse, if you use only Romaji and don't put effort into learning the kana then your Japanese reading ability won't advance, and you might also risk building a poor foundation for reading.

However, staying away completely from some otherwise good materials just because they use Romaji readings might be a bit extreme. How long will you actually spend reading just that material? Will that be your primary source of reading? If not, then it's not something to be too concerned with.

next person that mentions the forbidden word 「ローマ字」 will feel the wrath of heaven's.

I agree, if the book used ro-maji instead of kana as readings for the perfectly useful Kanji sentences such as the Kodansha books, it's still a good source. If the ro-maji turns you off, just mine it real quick using kana.

I think the appropriate term would be "Throwing the baby out with the bath water."

Sorry guys, but I think it is not a question of choice here. The only texts where you'll find ローマ字 are textbooks. If you are out in the real world, you won't find ANY ローマ字.

So the question is. Do you want to learn real Jap or textbook Jap?

mentat_kgs Wrote:Sorry guys, but I think it is not a question of choice here. The only texts where you'll find ローマ字 are textbooks. If you are out in the real world, you won't find ANY ローマ字.

So the question is. Do you want to learn real Jap or textbook Jap?

Actually, you will find romaji in Japan. It's not even close to as popular as pinyin is in china, but romanization is definitely something used 国内 from time to time.

Well, I have never been in Japan, but I've never came in contact with a manga or a book written in ローマ字.

mentat_kgs Wrote:Well, I have never been in Japan, but I've never came in contact with a manga or a book written in ローマ字.

Not written in, I don't think such a thing exists. It's more that there are words which might be written in romaji etc. According to japanese wikipedia, formal documents etc are often also demanded in romaji, both inside and outside of Japan.

The point still stands though: Japanese is written in kanji and kana, not romaji. Using romaji is definitely relying on a crutch. It's an extra, unnatural addition.