It seems to me like being able to write the kanji isn't a very pressing matter. As long as you can recognize them when you see them and say the reading, you're set, since most of what people write is on the computer, which turns the reading into kanji.

Thoughts?

The ability to write kanji helps a lot with looking up kanji and words in dictionaries, I've heard. Mainly due to knowing the stroke order and count.

Also knowing how to write kanji makes you inherently know how to recognise it much better than just learning to read it, I think.

it's not very pressing at all. at the most you'll need it for writing letters if you do that and you will probably have a cell phone or a computer nearby to look up the kanji you need.

knowing stroke order and count is a must though, especially since there's a lot of handwritten/calligraphic kanji that you'd only be able to distinguish if you know how it's written.

Learning to write them was very helpful for me at first when it came to actually learning them and learning to recognize them. Afterwards though, I quit practicing writing them and its been no great loss.

I think being able to write kanji helps alot in the ability of recognising kanji.

Otherwise it'd just be a blur with all the similar looking components.

I don't really hand write at all much.... don't have the time.

But I visualise the stroke orders in my head using my finger as a guide.

I had to relearn (brush up on) how to write kanji and compounds after completely neglecting my writing ability for a long time. If you're going to live in Japan or plan on writing handwritten letters in Japanese then it's vital, otherwise I can't see any reason to bother.

You can get away with not knowing how to write, even in Japan, but as has been said multiple times here already, knowing how strokes go so you can count them, is pretty important. If you only want to focus on speaking production and recognition, go right ahead. It won't affect you very much, not knowing how to write.

I was able to pass N1 with only being able to write ~20 kanji, so take from that what it's worth (...probably not much).

As others have said, knowing about kanji (stroke counts, radicals, etc) is often helpful.

Functionally all of you saying it's not very important are correct. However, if you plan to live in Japan I would very strongly suggest you learn how to write kanji.

Your Japanese friends will talk a big game about what ワープロ馬鹿 they are and how they can't write their own names or something crazy like that. They're lying to you.

Japanese people, even the ones that complain about kanji, can still write lots and lots and lots of kanji without thinking about it. The "without thinking about it" part is the reason they complain about not being able to write kanji. It's a part of the fabric of their reality that they take for granted every day.

Not being able to write kanji really doesn't mean a whole lot, in practice. That's fully true. However, being able to will always be seen as proof of your overall Japanese ability. That assumption is fully mistaken, but that is the assumption that is made all the time.

If you can't write kanji then people will treat you like you are illiterate or like you don't actually know Japanese.

This is completely unjust. It is inaccurate, but it's the way things in Japan are. If you expect to be taken seriously as a person that knows Japanese then you should be able to write kanji. There won't ever be some quiz on it, but being able to jot something down goes a very very very long way toward putting a proper foot forward as a foreigner in Japan.

If you don't care about whether or not people respect you then that's fine, take it for granted. It comes at a cost, though. It's not at a cost to your actual Japanese ability, but it is at a cost to your social relationships with Japanese people in Japan.

erlog Wrote:If you don't care about whether or not people respect you then that's fine, take it for granted. It comes at a cost, though. It's not at a cost to your actual Japanese ability, but it is at a cost to your social relationships with Japanese people in Japan.

erlog, this sounds like such an overreaction. You are making it sound like "No will ever see you as human if you can't write kanji!!!!11" or "You can't make friends if you can't write 1000 kanji!" Both of which are equally ridiculous sentiments. Will people have a lower opinion of you? Maybe. But to the degree that it will result in people acting like you don't exist or something or are stupid as rocks. Highly unlikely.

I tell people I can't write a single kanji, and its never affected my relationships with people. They're still blown away by the words I'm trying to read.

I'm not saying what you said isn't true, or trying to support "Never learn kanji." because I do agree that its important if you live in Japan. But your post reads almost sensationalist.

erlog Wrote:Not being able to write kanji really doesn't mean a whole lot, in practice. That's fully true. However, being able to will always be seen as proof of your overall Japanese ability. That assumption is fully mistaken, but that is the assumption that is made all the time.

If you can't write kanji then people will treat you like you are illiterate or like you don't actually know Japanese.

My impression from being in Japan is quite different from this. In my experience, the need to write Kanji doesn't come up frequently, so most people won't ever find out about it or judge you on it. Most Japanese people around me tend to judge foreign speakers on how well they speak. This is where "unimportant" stuff like accent comes into play. Next, if they find out you can read kanji, they will judge you on that.

I know you're really practicing for the 漢検, and I think that's great. After I get finished with RTK, I'm going to start on 漢検１０級（笑）. However, I'm doing this completely for myself (and because I get so angry that Kanji is so easy for my Chinese classmates...).

So, I disagree that Japanese people will judge you on your (in)ability to write Kanji. However, I do think you have a good point in that almost all Japanese people can write a lot of kanji. If you're aiming to be like a native, you should probably also learn to write a lot of kanji. Of course, there are a lot of other pieces of knowledge that go a long with making you like a native, like knowing Japanese history, Japanese folklore, jpop, 芸能人, etc.

Learning how to write is a must for progressing well with the language, I think, and it's covered in enough detail in RTK. Continually practising to write by reviewing and handwriting compositions and stuff, OTOH, is only worth it if you get a kick out of it or feel you'll require it in the future for some reason.

There was a survey recently in the UK showing that some people hadn't picked up a pen for over a year, and I doubt it's much different in Japan where most young people need a cellphone handy just to fill out a greeting card.

If you do RTK you will be left with the magical ability to be able write any kanji, given that you are looking at it or that you were able to catch a glimpse of it at least for a second. Writing a kanji from memory will take much more practice.

Maybe it's a learning style thing, but I found that after a break of about 3-4 years, I could still remember most of the kanji I had bothered to learn to write in the past (I wasn't using RTK at that point) but I'd forgotten almost all the kanji I'd only learned to recognize. When I restarted my studies I decided I would learn to write all the kanji I learned.

FWIW, writing kanji helped me memorize them. Also, if you ever plan on studying Chinese, knowing how to write the characters will help you with slick input methods like 五笔 (wubi).

I was just reading this on AJATT.com: http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...g-practice

*Indeed, you may often find, as I do, that there is a strong correlation between ability to write out the sentence and ability to read it correctly. There may always be things you can read but not write, but there will be few/none that you can write but not read. For whatever reason or reasons, the act of writing out the parts you get wrong will impress them upon your memory a lot more than merely seeing them. Maybe it’s because the writing out forces you to focus a bit.*

partner55083777 Wrote:My impression from being in Japan is quite different from this. In my experience, the need to write Kanji doesn't come up frequently, so most people won't ever find out about it or judge you on it.

So, I disagree that Japanese people will judge you on your (in)ability to write Kanji.

You're not disagreeing with me. You're agreeing with me. Re-read my post and notice this sentence.

erlog Wrote:Not being able to write kanji really doesn't mean a whole lot, in practice. That's fully true.

vix86 Wrote:erlog, this sounds like such an overreaction. You are making it sound like "No will ever see you as human if you can't write kanji!!!!11" or "You can't make friends if you can't write 1000 kanji!"

It's a good thing I didn't say either of these things then! This right here is called a strawman argument. You misrepresent what I said, and then you argue with that instead.

vix86 Wrote:I tell people I can't write a single kanji, and its never affected my relationships with people. They're still blown away by the words I'm trying to read.

Yes, this is in agreement with what I said!

erlog Wrote:Not being able to write kanji really doesn't mean a whole lot, in practice. That's fully true.

vix86 Wrote:Both of which are equally ridiculous sentiments. Will people have a lower opinion of you? Maybe. But to the degree that it will result in people acting like you don't exist or something or are stupid as rocks. Highly unlikely.

On the surface you'll be fine in Japan not knowing how to write any kanji. You'll be able to make Japanese friends fine. Hell, you can make Japanese friends fine without being able to speak any Japanese too! My point is not about a key functional difference. It's about taking responsibility for how you're perceived by Japanese people.

Here's the long and the short of it. Are you okay embodying the stereotype of a foreigner that can't do kanji? I'm not. I don't ever want a Japanese person to have this thought during an interaction with me: 「やっぱり…外人…しかたがない…」

Are you serious about being bilingual or not? Being able to write kanji is a very basic thing that is expected of native speakers. It's not expected very often, but it is expected. You not being able to do this very basic thing will always come across as a reminder and a reinforcement of: 「やっぱり…外人…しかたがない…」

So do you want to be thought of as "the foreigner" or do you want to be thought of as a real human being? It's fun to be "the foreigner" in Japan. Japan treats foreigners fairly well. That's a gilded cage, though.

I'm not saying that you're going to lose significant respect if it ever comes out that you can't write kanji. I'm saying that the opposite case is very beneficial. People will respect you more if you can do it. It's a way of signaling how deeply you actually do care about being bilingual in their language.

I understand not everyone has tons of time to study for kanken like I've been doing. I'm not saying that this should be a huge priority or helpful for everyone.

I'm saying that if you want to live in Japan, consider yourself bilingual, and not conform to the existing stereotypes of foreigners in Japan then being able to write kanji is an important part of that in my opinion. If those things don't apply to you then that's fine, and you're gonna be no worse for wear if you don't study how to write kanji.

If those things do apply to you then studying it can pay soft dividends over the long term in how you're perceived by Japanese people. It doesn't even have to be all the way up to KanKen 2級. Stopping at passing 5級 or 4級 would prepare you to be able to jot down most anything a normal everyday situation would require. That's like 1000-1200 kanji, their radicals, stroke order, common compounds, and okurigana for common words.

For most people who had already done RTK with an intermediate/advanced level of reading ability it would only take 4-6 months to polish up your abilities enough to have fluency in jotting things down. It's some work, but a very reasonable amount.

It's sad that even on this RTK forum there's still the mindset of "kanji are hard..." that seeps in from time to time without people realizing it. Kanji aren't hard. Writing kanji isn't that difficult. It takes time, but it isn't difficult. If Chinese people and Chinese learners can do it and are expected to do it then it isn't really a huge big deal for Japanese either.

I don't think anyone said it was hard. But it is time consuming.

@erlog
Motivating stuff right there. I have a feeling we can all succeed in writing and speaking. It really just comes down to investing the time and good methods. At the moment I'm all about good methods and efficient learning.

erlog Wrote:It's a good thing I didn't say either of these things then! This right here is called a strawman argument. You misrepresent what I said, and then you argue with that instead.

But then you went on to say

erlog Wrote:So do you want to be thought of as "the foreigner" or do you want to be thought of as a real human being? It's fun to be "the foreigner" in Japan. Japan treats foreigners fairly well. That's a gilded cage, though.

So you are saying that if you can't write kanji then you'll "never be human in the eyes of Japanese."

My issue isn't with writing or persisting some idea that "kanji is hard so you don't/shouldn't study writing it." (This is pure speculation on my part based on this post and other posts I've read of yours) Its that I read your posts and it sounds like you have some kind of issues going on and you've basically have convinced yourself that people will treat you better and talk to you like a person once you can wave a 2級 certificate in front of them and show them "I too can write Kanji, show me respect." I could and probably am wrong, but all this talk about "respect" and "Being viewed not as a foreigner," and "perception of you;" wreaks of identity/personal problems. Writing kanji won't act like some magical bullet to vastly improve your relationships, and that's what I keep taking away in your posts. A decent personality and some sociability will do that.

If you are going to do something you should do it for yourself not because it might gain you some brownie points with other people.

blackbrich Wrote:I don't think anyone said it was hard. But it is time consuming.

This.

Yes please diagnose me over the internet. That is helpful to the discussion because you obviously know me as a person so well based on dumb things I say on internet forums about learning Japanese.

You can go through your life in Japan pretending being stereotyped as a foreigner is not a problem, and that's probably fine. It bothers me a lot though, and so I do what I can to fight against the negative perceptions of foreigners in Japan. I never liked or enjoyed being stereotyped back in the US either, and I fought against it there too.

Any time you allow yourself to be boxed in like that you are letting the world define you rather than taking control and responsibility. I think you live in denial of what Japanese people actually think of you.

Foreigners in Japan are treated well, but are not thought of very highly. You are treated as a consumable like a hostess at a hostess club except you never go off the clock.

It's possible to have close friends who are good people who see through that stuff. Most foreigners do end up making friends with those kind of people. To the rest of Japanese society, though, every little slip-up you make will be taken as evidence of your being a foreigner that doesn't "get it". This is people on the street, but also job interviews.

This is about the first impression you make. Anyone who is with you longer than the first impression is going to be able to sort it all out eventually, but lots of Japanese people don't have the time or care to bother with it. To them you're just a foreigner, and all the ways in which you are deficient are reinforcements of that fact.

A really good example is chopsticks. I was taught how to use chopsticks by a very prim and proper Japanese girl on study abroad. I move to Japan later after graduating from school, and I'm told by one of my more honest friends that I should probably change the way I use them. It's okay for Japanese people to use them the way I was using them because every Japanese person knows that Japanese people are capable of using chopsticks. However, since I'm white everyone is just going to assume I don't actually know the proper way to use chopsticks. The improper way is tolerated as long as it can be assumed the person does actually know the proper way.

Before I was given this advice, chopsticks were a topic of conversation when I went out to eat with people. I would get the condescending "上手ですね！” Since I was given this advice nobody mentions anything to me about chopsticks ever.

Is there a "penalty" for not using chopsticks in the way that's deemed "proper"? No, probably not. Anyone who's worth a damn doesn't really care. However, it is really nice not to have to talk about chopsticks anymore. By this same token, it's nice to be able to head off at the pass most questions about my Japanese ability so that we can move on to actually discussing interesting topics other than language acquisition.

You can pretend the stereotypes aren't hurtful and that the double standards don't exist. That'll do you fine for a long time since Japan tends 敬遠 the shit out of foreigners. I do not enjoy the kind of social isolation that leads to, though.

I'd much rather put in the relatively small amount of work to send the proper signals so that things like stereotypes can be moved past, and so that it's more likely I'll be able to interact with people a human level rather than as just a random white person.

This isn't about some weird personality quirk I have. This is about my belief that being bilingual is important, and that the only thing that matters with regard to being bilingual is how your abilities compare to native speakers. Japanese people can write kanji. You should be able to write kanji. That's the end of it.

My talking about it as an issue of respect is secondary to that. That point is that you'll probably get along fine, but don't be surprised if you start being treated as a "foreigner" for acting like a "foreigner." I hear a lot of complaints online about the way Japanese people treat foreigners with people ranting about garbage like "microaggressions." They complain all the time about being treated stereotypically while doing nothing to combat those stereotypes, change those stereotypes, or subvert those stereotypes.

As long as you are white/foreign-looking in Japan, you will be stereotyped by everyone that meets you. They will have preconceived notions, some might be particularly bad or stupid, and generally its a reflection of how ignorant they are. I get that you are saying you want to beat these stereotypes and show people that they are BS. But in trying to beat them the way you are, you are also acknowledging them in a way.

Lets say that there is the stereotype amongst most Japanese that foreigners can't use Japanese, period. Not just writing but reading, listening, and everything else. And what is the result of this stereotype when it turns out that someone they meet can't actually meet those standards? Going on your feeling about it, they view you as less than human.
So it sounds like you have decided to tackle the stereotype by fulfilling the requirements of it, by learning to speak, listen, write, and read like a native; so they'll finally count you as human. This isn't beating the stereotype, its just perpetuating it because even if you are 漢検1級 and N1 and been in Japan for a decade, people that are still weighed down by these stereotypes are going to have confirmation bias. The first time you slip up and make a mistake (even one that Japanese would make) they'll just go "Ah dam, SEE I was right, this dude isn't good at Japanese after all!"

Let me give another example. Lets assume a stereotype of upper class white Americans about blacks is that all blacks are poor as shit, and so this makes the Upper class WASPs think all blacks know nothing about the world and aren't real people. By your account, if you were black, the way to combat this stereotype would be to become rich. Does this beat or even destroy the stereotype? No.

I think attempting to combat stereotypes is quite a virtuous endeavor. But I think going about it this way is likely to end up leaving just about anyone constantly frustrated and depressed, since you are constantly basing the worth of your actions off the standards of other people and how they see you. This was what I was saying in my last post. Aiming to be bilingual and capable of writing 1000-2000 kanji is a great goal for personal fulfillment and making your life easier in Japan. But its pretty crappy goal if the reason for this is so you can stick it to people and try and break their stereotypes, because you're more than likely going to constantly be disappointed by how little effect it has on people that are overly presumptuous.

If you ask me, the proper way to crush these kind of stereotypes is to stomp on them and show people that foreigners are in fact human regardless of their language level (or Socio-economic status). How you go about doing this though I don't know, but trying to bend to the mold of people's stereotypes isn't one of them.

EDIT: Actually, the thing that would greatly accelerate the wearing away of stereotypes that Japanese hold, would be an increase in immigrants to Japan. As long as Japan remains largely homogenous, these stereotypes, intentional or not, will continue to be perpetuated.

vix86 Wrote:EDIT: Actually, the thing that would greatly accelerate the wearing away of stereotypes that Japanese hold, would be an increase in immigrants to Japan. As long as Japan remains largely homogenous, these stereotypes, intentional or not, will continue to be perpetuated.

Let's just hope that those new immigrants to Japan don't actually match the stereotype that we're trying to remove. Otherwise we'll do more harm than good LOL.

Then again, stereotypes exist for a reason, because they have various degrees of basis in reality. And if a stereotype is proven false, then people will just conjure up a new one and we're back to square one.

Really, the best thing for anyone in the world to do is to be yourself, flaws and all.

Secondly, if your happiness depends on the approval of other people, then differentiate between the 'others'. There are two types of 'others':

1) People who overtly judge someone based on a stereotype.
2) People who judge someone based on their individual characteristics (but may covertly judge someone based on a stereotype because they can't help it).

If you must seek approval from others, then seek approval from the second group. Ignore the first group because they're not worth your time.

.

Again, I don't think anyone is running around saying "You shouldn't bother writing because 'Hey! Even Japanese need a phone to write these days!!' " Thats quite absurd. Most Japanese will be able to write at least 1000 characters I would imagine.

Its this whole deal of "I need to learn to write/speak/listen/read like a native, to gain the respect of everyone and prove I'm not their stereotypical foreigner." This is going to remain absurd reasoning to me simply because I don't believe anyone should run away making decisions about their time/life based on appeasing others, least of which are stereotypes. Its obviously important to erlog though. I've just seen many people run into problems when they start valuing stuff based on what others think and not based on how they think or feel.