I'm curious as to how Light Novels compare to Manga in terms of reading difficulty? I've been trying to decide what Manga to pick up to start working on sentences and what not as I'm just a beginner and I heard Manga were easy to work with. But then I remembered the Haruhi Suzumiya light novels. I've wanted those for quite some time and this would be a good reason to pick them up. But I get the feeling they would be quite a bit harder to read than a simple Manga.

Would that assumption be correct?

Those books were just the most interesting ones I could think of off the top of my head. So I was curious if I could use them to start my SRS sentence adventures. But if they are going to be too difficult than I can try and find some good Manga to pick up and get the novels later.

I have been reading haruhi manga(well just sentences from online,etc) and the kanji it uses it obscure sometimes. Some are not part of joyo kanji,etc. I remember some of the kanji are from RTK 3 as well. I can read it fine/understand it. Only some points may be like, I need to search up definition/add to vocab deck,etc. But overall I'd say you have to be upper-intermediate to be able to read it all fine. For a beginner it would be hard, even reading bleach manga(I bought 4 of the recent books) and sometimes i still trip on the readings, even though I know a lot of readings. Overall I'd say it just takes time to understand it fully. Some mangs use of kanji can be obscure at times, or just not the common types of phrases you would hear being said in japan(like talking in a conversation-wise with a person)

well for some of the difficult words in haruhi aren't really practical to learn it from the novel as you stumble upon them since there isn't much context to learn them from. From the impression I got... some words aren't used in a strong context setting it's just not ideal to learn from that sentence etc but if you do know the word then i guess it's rewarding when you read it.

ex:
like the word 天変地異 was in the novel and the the novel gave no context really... it just said haruhi or her action or whatever about her ~~~ was tenpenchii (something like that) . It just uses the word but there is no context really. I later just learned this word from some japanese variety/talk show and at that time I could learn it b.c. the person who used that word used it because it fit the context really well.

=== do consider the i+1 or whatever that's called.
it'll probably be inefficient if it is more than i+1

Oh and somebody did upload the haruhi novels online somewhere... FULL TEXT.
so even if you do have the physical light novel, it saves up typing time if you are planning to add stuff to your srs.

So it wouldn't be a good idea to pick up the Light Novels now then. Well time to try and find something else I suppose. Thanks for the quick replies.

I wanna get a few light novels, or novels that contain furigana,etc I can read kanji just fine now but for some reason I still screw up on the readings. It's more context actually, so I just have to keep in mind what kanji readings go with the context.

I started with the Yotsuba& mangas. They are -way- easier than any light novel I've found. Even my One Piece and Bleach mangas are quite a bit easier than the easiest light novel I have.

wccrawford Wrote:I started with the Yotsuba& mangas. They are -way- easier than any light novel I've found. Even my One Piece and Bleach mangas are quite a bit easier than the easiest light novel I have.

Bleach mangas aren't hard but i'm sure you'll occasional stumble on some stuff. I'd just thinking of getting full fledged novels/light novels/more manga. I want to read more, I'm finding that I prefer to read something physical then online at times.

I always prefer to have the actual book with me. But my wallet has a limit. lol. That's why I'm having a hard time deciding what to get. I really want the haruhi light novels and the 9 of those alone are pretty expensive. I could just get them and work my way up to them with easier readings online and whatnot.

I'm looking into Yotsuba& now. I'll see what that manga is like. Looking for some other good ones as well.

arch9443 Wrote:I always prefer to have the actual book with me. But my wallet has a limit. lol. That's why I'm having a hard time deciding what to get. I really want the haruhi light novels and the 9 of those alone are pretty expensive. I could just get them and work my way up to them with easier readings online and whatnot.

I'm looking into Yotsuba& now. I'll see what that manga is like. Looking for some other good ones as well.

I hear ya, it's expensive. I bought 4 bleach books i'm that was expensive. As for the light novels aim for 2-3. That should keep you busy. If you can copy/paste stuff on word and just print it out to read outside if your on the bus,etc or going to places,etc. Good substitute

The publisher of the Haruhi light novels has put the prologue of the first volume online, so you can judge for yourself how hard it is. I think the prologue's reasonably representative of the rest of the text.

I agree with howtwosavealif3 that the style of the Haruhi novels means they tend to introduce odd words in contexts that make them very hard to guess, because they're non-sequiturs or Kyon going off on some tangent or weird analogy. On the other hand this makes them quite good for later when your Japanese is better, because they effectively test whether you really do understand the vocab/grammar and aren't just guessing plausible meanings ;-)

Manga are typically rather easier to start with than light novels, because:
1. there's simply less text, so the ratio of hard work to enjoyment-of-story is better
2. the text there is is mostly dialogue, which usually means shorter and simpler sentences. (The flip side is that the text is likely to include more slang/colloquial contractions/etc, but those are fairly easy to pick up)
3. you have the illustrations, which are a useful context clue which narrows down a lot what the sentence could possibly mean, and which mean that if there are parts which you can't understand at all you can skip them without completely losing the thread of the plot

So my suggestion would be that you start with manga, and when you get to the point where reading manga generally feels "easy", try moving on to a light novel.

I agree that manga and novels can be a bit expensive but (a) think how much you're saving compared to the English translated versions and (b) try working it out in dollars per hour :-)

For beginner to intermediate students trying manga or light novels, grammar and sentence structure is a much larger barrier than kanji or vocab, because it's so much harder to look up. In that sense there's not much difference -- if you can't parse complicated sentences or figure out modifying clauses, both manga and light novels are going to be difficult to get through. If you can, it's just a matter of how much text there is.

(It also depends a lot on which light novel and which manga you're talking about.)

For an example, just look at the first sentence of the Haruhi novel linked to above:
サンタクロースをいつまで信じていたかなんてことはたわいもない世間話にもならないくらいのどうでもいいような話だが、それでも俺がいつまでサンタなどという想像上の赤服じーさんを信じていたかと言うとこれは確信を持って言えるが最初から信じてなどいなかった。

While this sentence is designed to draw in readers, it's pretty formidable for a Japanese learner, because it's a very long sentence with no previous context, no clear characters or actions, and a rather complicated sentence as well. From what I can see, the next few sentences are no easier.

Just to mention another light novel: I'd say キノの旅 light novels are way easier to read than haruhi. They have fewer obscure words and generally shorter sentences.

pm215 Wrote:The publisher of the Haruhi light novels has put the prologue of the first volume online, so you can judge for yourself how hard it is. I think the prologue's reasonably representative of the rest of the text.

I agree with howtwosavealif3 that the style of the Haruhi novels means they tend to introduce odd words in contexts that make them very hard to guess, because they're non-sequiturs or Kyon going off on some tangent or weird analogy. On the other hand this makes them quite good for later when your Japanese is better, because they effectively test whether you really do understand the vocab/grammar and aren't just guessing plausible meanings ;-)

Manga are typically rather easier to start with than light novels, because:
1. there's simply less text, so the ratio of hard work to enjoyment-of-story is better
2. the text there is is mostly dialogue, which usually means shorter and simpler sentences. (The flip side is that the text is likely to include more slang/colloquial contractions/etc, but those are fairly easy to pick up)
3. you have the illustrations, which are a useful context clue which narrows down a lot what the sentence could possibly mean, and which mean that if there are parts which you can't understand at all you can skip them without completely losing the thread of the plot

So my suggestion would be that you start with manga, and when you get to the point where reading manga generally feels "easy", try moving on to a light novel.

I agree that manga and novels can be a bit expensive but (a) think how much you're saving compared to the English translated versions and (b) try working it out in dollars per hour :-)

Awesome, it's not bad at all. Might just get it. I can understand pretty much all of it. I'm getting into the habit nowadays I just reading wayy more than I srs.

Obscure words aren't really that much of a problem because there are plenty of good lookup tools that you can use. They slow you down a bit, but they're not an impossible barrier.

What does become an impossible barrier is parsing the sentences when you aren't familiar with the sentence structure.
サンタクロースをいつまで信じていたかなんてことはたわいもない世間話にもならないくらいのどうでもいいような話だが
You can have all the dictionaries, books, kanji lookup, whatever -- if you don't already know some of the grammar here, you're going to be stuck. I don't even think a lot of interest in the material is going to be able to get you through this (or at least that didn't work for me).

I'm going to recommend that you jump into whatever you want to first. Don't worry about the difficulty - if it is something that you really want to read, you will read it.

For decided what kind of Japanese to immerse yourself in, don't follow the i+1 idea. This will definitely lead you down... well, an impossible path. Especially as a beginning it will be impossible to find material with just one new thing per sentence in it. My recommendation is to jump into whatever you want to, and do this:

1) Read

2) If you come across a word you don't understand look it up
2a) Is this word really awesome? If yes,
2b) Is this word going to be useful? As is, will you ever see this word outside this novel/manga ever again? If yes,
2b) SRS it, baby! Whether in the sentence from the novel (not suggested), a sentence from the dictionary (more suggested by just including small context as in what particles to use with verbs, etc), and just as the word by itself (as you get more into SRSing).

3) Alternative to 2): You come across a word you don't know
3a) Look it up
3b) Move on

4) Grammar you don't know: Try to find it in the grammar dictionaries or on JGram
4a) Can't find it: Guess

5) A sentence you COMPLETELY don't understand AT ALL
5a) SKIP IT!

This is what I suggest.

Here's an personal anecdote from my time as a beginning:

I tried doing the sentence thing. I ran through Tae Kim and started KO2001 and got a bit into the first book, but then I got bored. SRSing stopped, and soon after I stopped reviewing. What to do, I thought? I want to get good enough to be able to read 十二国記 (a book series I bought as motivation for me, since I'm a big fantasy nerd). How am I going to read this if I don't understand enough, though?

Oh wait, let's just read it. So I did. I'm not going to lie, it was really, really hard. But I went through it, SRSing what I thought was cool and wanted to remember, and just looking up the rest and moving on. What did I find? I found that the stuff I SRS'd I remembered well, but honestly not that much better than the stuff I just read and looked up. The wonderful thing about reading a book is a lot of the same terms and words pop up often enough to get multiple exposures to them, thus planting them in your memory.

Now, I still haven't finished 十二国記 to this day, though I recently restarted reading it (much easier now!); however, before, by the time I got to the 3rd book, reading was far, far easier. And from all 3 of those books I barely SRS'd 500 things.

So, go have some fun and good luck!

Ryuujin27 Wrote:I'm going to recommend that you jump into whatever you want to first. Don't worry about the difficulty - if it is something that you really want to read, you will read it.

Well, maybe, but you probably aren't learning the language just to read *one* book, right? ;-) So there are probably various things out there that you want to read, and it's got to be worth picking the easier stuff first. Certainly I found that it was much more motivating to just switch to something easier and put too-difficult books on hold for a while. Then you get to come back to them and they're usually less intimidating second time around.

I agree that there's no point reading stuff you don't want to read, though; if you (say) find manga in general a complete turnoff there's no point starting with them even if they are objectively easier than novels.

(Yudantaiteki makes a good point about being able to have a decent stab at parsing sentences being really useful, incidentally; totally agree with that. One of the things that I think makes manga easier than novels is that complex sentence structures are less common.)

And my intent in saying that is not to discourage people from trying real Japanese, I just think it can be counterproductive and actually harmful to motivation to struggle with it too early. Based on my own failed attempts to use manga really early in my studies, I know that there is a point where you just literally cannot read anything on your own, even with reference materials. You can pick out words and phrases, but you can't make sense of the whole.

My recommendation, as always, is a combination. Don't avoid "real Japanese" without even trying it, but don't miss the opportunity to learn a lot from textbooks/grammar books/etc. as well.

This is where Japanese the Manga Way, with its focus on both polite/general grammar descriptions and informal, 'manga' structures, is at its strongest. Ditto for Mangajin, made by the same fellow (one of the contributors, at least) in the same style.

nest0r Wrote:This is where Japanese the Manga Way, with its focus on both polite/general grammar descriptions and informal, 'manga' structures, is at its strongest. Ditto for Mangajin, made by the same fellow (one of the contributors, at least) in the same style.

Well that's good news. I just got myself a copy of that book. It will arrive today. =) Thanks for all the help everyone. It's much appreciated. And I have a fair idea of how I should go about things now.

I need to buff up my vocab and understanding of sentences more before I tackle the big books but I know I have the tools to help me reach that level of understanding. Only a matter of time now. I suppose I will be off so I can continue the learning.

There's something to be said for reading the Japanese translation of books you've already read in English. Thus, you are able to follow the gist of the story even if you're not getting every word. It's much less frustrating than trying to follow what's going on in the story plus following the meanings of the words. Plus it's a great excuse to re-read stories you loved as a kid.

I'm currently reading The Witches by Roald Dahl. Probably not the best choice, since Dahl was always fond of word-play/making up words.

Once I'm reading English translations comfortably, I'll probably transition over to works written by Japanese authors.

bluemarigolds Wrote:There's something to be said for reading the Japanese translation of books you've already read in English. Thus, you are able to follow the gist of the story even if you're not getting every word. It's much less frustrating than trying to follow what's going on in the story plus following the meanings of the words. Plus it's a great excuse to re-read stories you loved as a kid.

I'd love to hear some good suggestions in that realm. I tried Harry Potter, but it was just a bit too ambitious for me. Something meant more for younger kids would probably be better. I wonder if there are any good translations of Aesop's fables? ...

Edit: Oh, that's apparently what this is. I didn't know. http://hukumusume.com/douwa/pc/aesop/

wccrawford Wrote:

bluemarigolds Wrote:There's something to be said for reading the Japanese translation of books you've already read in English. Thus, you are able to follow the gist of the story even if you're not getting every word. It's much less frustrating than trying to follow what's going on in the story plus following the meanings of the words. Plus it's a great excuse to re-read stories you loved as a kid.

I'd love to hear some good suggestions in that realm. I tried Harry Potter, but it was just a bit too ambitious for me. Something meant more for younger kids would probably be better. I wonder if there are any good translations of Aesop's fables? ...

Edit: Oh, that's apparently what this is. I didn't know. http://hukumusume.com/douwa/pc/aesop/

What happened with your English/Japanese readings of All You Need is Kill? Or plans to that effect.

nest0r Wrote:What happened with your English/Japanese readings of All You Need is Kill? Or plans to that effect.

lol That was hard enough to follow in English. The Japanese version of that is way in my future.

Was an awesome book in English tho. I definitely need more like it.

arch9443 Wrote:I'm curious as to how Light Novels compare to Manga in terms of reading difficulty?

Both manga and light novels vary greatly difficulty. Here's a sample from Kanokon, a rather easy to read light novel:

　ノックする前に、耕太《こうた》はひとつ深呼吸をした。
　音楽室のドアをぬけて、しっとりとしたピアノの旋律が聞こえてくる。ドアについたガラスこしに覗《のぞ》ける室内に生徒の姿はない。すでに放課後となっていた。
　――もしかして、あのひとが弾いているのかな。
　おだやかな曲だというのに、耕太の鼓動は速まってきた。まだ着慣れていない制服の、まだつけなれていないネクタイ前に置いたこぶしを、ぎゅっと握る。
　二度、ドアをノックした。
「あの、失礼します」

And here's a sample from Kure-nai, a rather hard one:

　玄関のチャイムが鳴っていた、もう二時間も。
　それは断続的なものであり、たまに途絶《とだ》えると、そのかわりに玄関の扉を叩《たた》く音が数十回続く。それが止《や》むと、再びチャイムが鳴り出す。音の侵略行為。部屋の主《あるじ》である杉原《すぎはら》｜麻里子《まりこ》は両手で耳を塞《ふさ》ぎ、ソファの上で身を丸め、必死にそれに耐えていた。テレビやラジオの音量を上げて打ち消すことも試したが、玄関のドアの向こうにいる男は、それと関係なく続ける。彼女が家に居るのを見計らい、音だけで責める。男はそうやって、彼女に反省を促《うなが》しているつもりなのだ。彼女が謝罪の意思を示し、ドアを開けて男を招き入れるまで、ずっと続けるのだろう。

Most light novels will be somewhere between these two. The easiest light novels are easier to read than the intermediate level manga, I would say, as they use a more standard, easier-to-parse Japanese; but it's true that the easiest manga are easier to read than any light novel.

Quote:I've been trying to decide what Manga to pick up to start working on sentences and what not as I'm just a beginner and I heard Manga were easy to work with.

Don't think; just pick a manga and try to read it. If you find it too hard, pick another. (That's why I think it's a better idea to buy many first volumes than to buy a single complete series.)

Quote:But then I remembered the Haruhi Suzumiya light novels. I've wanted those for quite some time and this would be a good reason to pick them up. [...] Those books were just the most interesting ones I could think of off the top of my head. So I was curious if I could use them to start my SRS sentence adventures.

It'd sure be a hardcore way to start; the Suzumiya Haruhi books are among the hardest light novels you will ever find.

(but, to be fair, they are not as hard as that prologue suggests; the very first pages of any light novel are usually much harder to read than the remaining pages, from my experience; that's even more true for Suzumiya books: if you can read the prologue, you can read the book)

Quote:But if they are going to be too difficult than I can try and find some good Manga to pick up and get the novels later.

Why not pick both an easy manga and an easy light novel? They each will give you different skills.

Some other tips:
- Pick manga/light novel you've watched the anime; this will make it much easier. If you have watched none, go watch some, with subtitles if you will, then read the originals.
- Do check translations when in doubt; odds are, the translator knows much more Japanese than you currently do. Just don't trust them blindly: if the translation does not seem to make sense, ask someone / skip the sentence.

wccrawford Wrote:

nest0r Wrote:What happened with your English/Japanese readings of All You Need is Kill? Or plans to that effect.

lol That was hard enough to follow in English. The Japanese version of that is way in my future.

Was an awesome book in English tho. I definitely need more like it.

Oh. You should go through every light novel and rate the difficulty. I would, but I'm busy posting comments.