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Learning Japanese without learning to speak?

#1
While I was in the shower and in deep thought, an interesting hypothetical situation came to me. Would it be possible to learn Japanese without learning how to speak it? TO further explain, here's a situation:

Fred is an English man who can read, write, and speak in English. He wants to learn Japanese, but here's the catch: we don't give him any romaji whatsoever, and he never hears the language spoken. So, in essence, all he has are the kana and the kanji, with no romaji and no speakers. My question is, do you think he can successfully learn how to write and understand Japanese?

While I was mulling it over, I came up with a few points.

1) Because you don't know romaji and don't know pronunciation, the kana on their own would be somewhat worthless. They represent the syllables, but since you won't know the syllables, each individual character doesn't really mean that much when you read it. So in essence, reading is just being able to identify a group of symbols and figuring out what that means.

2) Because of that, the entire language becomes somewhat like RTK: with RTK, each Kanji has a corresponding keyword that is related to its meaning, but doesn't involve Japanese readings or pronunciation whatsoever. Without being able to speak or pronounce the entire language, all you can do is identify a group of words and figure out what the "keyword," so to speak, is.

3) Grammar might be a bit hard, since some kana act as particles or indicators of functions. I guess you'd be able to go through Tae Kim and core2K since those don't involve Romaji, but give some importance and meaning to the random characters.

So what do you guys think? I'm just bored since it's spring break, and I think it could be an interesting discussion.
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#2
Maybe if he studies enough loanwords, he could get a (very rough) idea of the phonetics of katakana. Then he could use some reference to map the katakana to the hiragana (or for a more Michael Ventris-style approach, play a video game where the robots speak in all katakana, and combine that with context, previous knowledge from his studies, and a lot of free time to do the mapping himself). Ha! Fred is free from your malicious experiment! (Although with a bizarre accent).

Seriously though, I'm not sure how this is that different from a deaf/mute person learning to read and write Japanese. That's surely possible.
Edited: 2010-04-05, 10:25 pm
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#3
In that very artificial situation where the man cannot even see approximated romaji pronunciations, I think it would be extremely difficult to do. It's a little hard to say because there aren't any pedagogical methods or resources to allow someone to do that, so it's difficult to imagine what method Fred would use to learn the language. Also, if Fred is a non-deaf person, language is going to be strongly connected with sound and speech in his mind, so it's going to be tough for him to completely avoid trying to associate the symbols with some sort of sounds. This is a different situation from a deaf speaker, and even with the deaf speaker, they are still associating the symbols with some sort of phonetic representation (since it's necessary to use dictionaries and textbooks).

I have wondered this about Chinese before, whether it would be possible to learn to read Chinese texts using only English, but that's a little different. I'm skeptical that it would work for Chinese. Japan was able to import the reading of Chinese texts using Japanese, but they also borrowed a large amount of the vocabulary from Chinese and were using the writing system to write their own language as well, so I think that's a completely different case.
Edited: 2010-04-05, 10:27 pm
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#4
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=5127
Edited: 2010-04-05, 10:34 pm
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#5
Hahaha I guess it was just a matter of time before the resident deaf guy popped in to say hai Smile

So if you want to know "more" about that hypothetical situation and it's not already answered in the thread nest0r linked to, feel free to ping me.

[edit:] corrected (oblio Wink )
Edited: 2010-04-06, 12:20 am
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#6
Hmm, guess this discussion has already been had.

Just a quick question, though: even though you're deaf, do you still mouth words out as you learn them? Just a bit curious, that's all.
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#7
smartazjb0y Wrote:Hmm, guess this discussion has already been had.

Just a quick question, though: even though you're deaf, do you still mouth words out as you learn them? Just a bit curious, that's all.
Hehe, no I don't.

There are few exceptions, I tend to mouth non-sense when I'm counting numbers.... And lately for larger words in Hiragana I find myself breaking it up such as "Wa Ta Shi", but normally when I think of a word/concept it just pops in my head such as "Neko".
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#8
There has been a lot written about how all scripts are phonetic to one degree or another, and Chinese-based scripts are no exception. There is significant doubt that a script completely divorced from phonetics could even be possible. See DeFrancis, Visible Speech: The Diverse Oneness of Writing for a more thorough discussion.

I think your question is more accurately "can you learn Japanese without learning to pronounce it?" rather than without learning to speak it. Speaking a language is a specific skill, and plenty of people learn to read languages without learning to speak them, Japanese included. But I'd be surprised if anyone could learn a language without having any sense of pronunciation to go on.
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#9
Sounds like someone has a lot of catching up to do, re: reading and speech/reading and pronunciation. We've come a long way since DeFrancis.

By the way pharaun, to go in hand with my comments/links in your first thread and the Speed Reading and HBPK threads, I've been reading more specifically about prelingually deaf readers and the like, and so far it further bears out the idea that once you get to a certain level, it's not 'audition' so much as 'articulation', so that what phonocentrists call 'phonological' based on the dominant mode is best thought of as supramodal or amodal. This also goes in hand with notions of neuronal recyclage and PDP/IA/dual-route reading processes and new notions of how Broca/Wernicke/Geschwind are subdivided and interact (mentioned in another thread, Silva Method thread).

Some of the specifically deaf-related papers I'm looking into that discuss the absence of a major role for phonological deficits in deaf reading difficulties, as well as further discussion of the supramodality of what is termed phonological (I've hinted at this in previous references, even one link about an argument against certain phonemic models, but didn't realize it had progressed so far--exciting!): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2702837/

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob...095f5c3d18

http://www.springerlink.com/content/n18174g8617u1t85/
http://www.springerlink.com/content/y14337p484h1r26k/
http://www.springerlink.com/content/k554t22pw505wp54/

Seems MacSweeney and Miller are doing some of the most interesting studies in this area.
Edited: 2010-04-06, 12:34 pm
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#10
nest0r Wrote:Sounds like someone has a lot of catching up to do, re: reading and speech/reading and pronunciation. We've come a long way since DeFrancis.
Well, that's just beyond helpful. Thanks so much. Rolleyes

Are you saying that writing systems are not all phonetic to a degree? Do you have any book recommendations or anything to point me in the right direction so I can read for myself, rather than just hinting that there is something out there somewhere?
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#11
bflatnine Wrote:
nest0r Wrote:Sounds like someone has a lot of catching up to do, re: reading and speech/reading and pronunciation. We've come a long way since DeFrancis.
Well, that's just beyond helpful. Thanks so much. Rolleyes

Are you saying that writing systems are not all phonetic to a degree? Do you have any book recommendations or anything to point me in the right direction so I can read for myself, rather than just hinting that there is something out there somewhere?
I believe above I provided a million recommendations and direction-pointers as to why the notion that written language must be phonetic and that one can't learn to read without knowing pronunciation are fallacious* concepts.

Written languages where phonology does play a part (i.e. the ones that, where multimodality is the dominant paradigm by the majority of user/developers and it's intended to interact with the spoken word), not only do they not actually require aurality/orality for lexical access, articulation, syntactical parsing, etc. as dinosaurs like DeFrancis used to think (RIP), but even where parallel activation does occur alongside the visuospatial/sensorimotor routes, once you get beyond the shallowest analyses, it becomes clear that the 'phonetic' processes themselves are plastic and amodal.

At any rate, to be honest, it was really hard to convince myself to respond to your comment. I think it's time to pass the torch, even arguing with my foil yudantaiteki just doesn't do it for me anymore. Sad

*Not to be confused with 'fellatio', e.g. "One primatologist speculated that the real reason two male orangutans were fellating each other was nutritional."
Edited: 2010-04-06, 4:45 pm
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#12
I was thinking more along the lines of something that a non-specialist could understand. My linguistics background is essentially zero, and those papers go way over my head. I'm not trying to argue with you as you seem to think. I'm trying to learn more. My first comment in this thread was just me saying what I understand from my limited reading so far.

I'm not sure what made you so agitated, but anyway, the name of a book or author or two (at an introductory level) would be much appreciated.

It seems like I should retract part of my statement. But I still don't know of any writing system that isn't at least partly phonetic by design. Is there one?
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#13
Designed by whom? What do you consider a written system? What do you mean by phonetic? I'm trying to explain that 'phonetic' as 'sound' is superficial, and that even with English, sound isn't required. Written language isn't speech written down, it's meaning articulated through text. Sound is incidental and incorporated by speech-users on a superficial level, though not on a deeper level, is my declaration, and I think it's, ah, a sound one.

However, plenty of people have argued back and forth without simply bypassing the preconceived notions, I'm sure you can find arguments on Wikipedia about what's a 'proper' language/full writing system/etc. Math, programming, blissymbols, ancient writing, writing/sign language as it's used by the deaf/hearing....

People even argue whether 'khipu' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quipu) can be considered a writing system, and once they do, I'm sure they'll argue whether and/or how much it referenced sound (see Gary Urton's very interesting work). I consider current science on language to be evolved past that though, and can't be expected to be polarised within those shallow reality tunnels, so please feel free to instead pore over my references and comments, should you have the patience as I did (as mutual laypersons).

Urton references Roy Harris in the above link. I have also referenced them, alongside Coulmas and others, in the HBPK thread, so perhaps head over there ('how the brain processes kanji'). That's just a start, though... As for math, Stanislas Dehaene has written interesting stuff about numbers in the brain.
Edited: 2010-04-06, 9:05 pm
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#14
Ah, I understand where you're coming from now. That helped. Really this time. Big Grin

I was under the impression that something like Quipu would be considered proto-writing if anything, but I guess there will be debate over the definition of terms forever, in any field.

Thanks for the clarification.

Edit: I ordered some books last week that are on the way, some by Coulmas among them. Looks like I have my summer reading cut out for me.
Edited: 2010-04-06, 9:54 pm
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#15
I prefer to think of general/specific/robust types of writing, where each has the capacity to visually communicate and/or aurally do so. From everything to spatial movements to notation to phonograms to logograms to mixed like Japanese. In that sense, I actually think of a mixed logoraphic/phonographic system, in theory (i.e. I'm not saying kanji/kana as it's used in Japanese), to be superior, and other forms feel 'proto' to me for being limited/incomplete. It's when systems embrace the way the brain processes numbers, logograms, phonograms, etc. in such a way that all modalities are taken into account/used/ignored as needed by users, that I think of them as fullest.

But yes, Urton's extensive work has really opened up interpretations of khipu, to include narratives and 'extranumeric' meanings and the like. Also, when I think of how people label 'proto-writing', what they're really doing is assuming a specific Chomskyian (even though Chomsky's views on LAD/UG have changed) notion of innate/natural language, with this notion of language being primarily spoken, where the alphabet is the highest form of writing. Which is what I feel has been dismantled and debunked, and what I usually link to (re: research that discusses how we really use language) and argue against, becoming agitated.

Actually here's a piece I found on Google that ironically talks about the same subjects. I love these forms of corroboration. Keeps me confident but humble...

"The Inca Empire, on the other hand, is more problematic, because it is much more difficult to identify an Andean medium that qualifies as writing as traditionally defined. The most common solution to this problem, normally offered by scholars who do not focus on the khipu directly, involves a rather brief assessment of the khipu as a kind of anomaly, perhaps a form of “proto-writing” that somehow facilitated the development of a complex state.

The interdisciplinary field of knowledge within which this type of investigation is normally carried out supplies terms such as “writing,” “literacy,” and “orality.” In most cases, debates about the nature of the khipu revolve – whether explicitly or implicitly – around the question of whether it constitutes a system of writing. At one level, this is a semantic issue that depends on the particular definition of writing that one adopts. In some cases, to insist that the khipu be considered a form of writing may be a necessary political strategy to counter ethnocentric perspectives that relegate societies without writing to an inferior position (Boone 2000:29–30). An even more radical approach, however, would be to refuse to submit to the terms of the debate. The concepts designated by the terms “writing,” “literacy,” and even “orality” originated in the particular historical context of alphabetic literacy and from the perspective of a literate mentality that has been unable to deal with the implications of other forms of semiosis. If the only two categories of society are those with alphabetic writing and those without, the Inca Empire does not fit into either of them. Researchers who seriously study the khipu and other non-Western media tend to recognize that they demand a reevaluation both of traditional historical and anthropological theory and of writing itself. "

The above is accurate and smart, but is the kind of theory I was unhappy with before deciding to force myself to read stuff on neuroscience and linguistics, because it left too many openings for accusations of 'being liberal' and the like rather than simply being logical and empirically sound. Now I do both. ;p Now I use both, rather, as I never subverted logic or utility for aesthetic or political reasons.
Edited: 2010-04-06, 10:06 pm
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#16
nest0r Wrote:Sounds like someone has a lot of catching up to do, re: reading and speech/reading and pronunciation. We've come a long way since DeFrancis.

By the way pharaun, to go in hand with my comments/links in your first thread and the Speed Reading and HBPK threads, I've been reading more specifically about prelingually deaf readers and the like, and so far it further bears out the idea that once you get to a certain level, it's not 'audition' so much as 'articulation', so that what phonocentrists call 'phonological' based on the dominant mode is best thought of as supramodal or amodal. This also goes in hand with notions of neuronal recyclage and PDP/IA/dual-route reading processes and new notions of how Broca/Wernicke/Geschwind are subdivided and interact (mentioned in another thread, Silva Method thread).

Some of the specifically deaf-related papers I'm looking into that discuss the absence of a major role for phonological deficits in deaf reading difficulties, as well as further discussion of the supramodality of what is termed phonological (I've hinted at this in previous references, even one link about an argument against certain phonemic models, but didn't realize it had progressed so far--exciting!): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2702837/

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob...095f5c3d18

http://www.springerlink.com/content/n18174g8617u1t85/
http://www.springerlink.com/content/y14337p484h1r26k/
http://www.springerlink.com/content/k554t22pw505wp54/

Seems MacSweeney and Miller are doing some of the most interesting studies in this area.
Just wanted to throw this into the mix before it's removed from Google cache, because it provides tonnes of links (references) on the relevant literature:

Phonology and Reading

Of course, folks like Miho and Daniel Steinberg were already discussing this decades ago with regards to Japanese...

Okay, my brain hurts, time for another break. I haven't been studying Japanese at all lately. Sad

Also, I think it's time to start referring to phonemes as cheremes. ;p
Edited: 2010-04-26, 12:03 am
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#17
nest0r nest0r nest0r... weren't you supposed to be studying Japanese and discussing Japanese only... I don't think you left the cell phone off while taking this "vacation" ;P
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#18
kendo99 Wrote:nest0r nest0r nest0r... weren't you supposed to be studying Japanese and discussing Japanese only... I don't think you left the cell phone off while taking this "vacation" ;P
I've become obsessed. It's like, I'm afraid if I don't post these comments, contemporary linguistics will collapse back into the stagnance of previous decades. Mustn't let the nativists/phonocentrists win. ;p (In case my previous references were missed, more on what drives me: Speech and Writing or What is Writing?, good starting points, I'm too lazy to unleash the ungodly amount of other papers and books I've gone through on the topic since initially referencing Coulmas, Olson, Harris, etc., been focused on the science... ) Maybe I'll slip in David Crystal on computer-mediated communication, that's a good tangent...
Edited: 2010-04-26, 12:36 am
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#19
LOL...I think you must consume these things in the form of a beverage or something. You may be one of the most well-read people I've met on cog. neuroscience and contemporary linguistics.
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#20
Meh, if I were more disciplined I'd be designing and executing these studies myself. Now I have to wait for evolutionary linguistics to integrate with cross-cultural orthographic neuroscience...

Edit: Link self-destructed. I was never here.
Edited: 2010-04-26, 2:58 am
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#21
heh, figured it out seconds too late. I thought the "this is not a tiny url" was your usual double misdirection Tongue No worries though, I'll understand next time
Edited: 2010-04-26, 2:07 am
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#22
I have no idea what nest0r is going on about in this topic. I'm just depressed that I started learning Japanese in my late teens. If I had started when I was younger, before the critical period, then my language acquisition device would still be working, and I could have used the universal grammar innate in all humans to have Japanese down pat. I'd probably be speaking up a storm by now, I tell you what.
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#23
Mcjon01 Wrote:I have no idea what nest0r is going on about in this topic. I'm just depressed that I started learning Japanese in my late teens. If I had started when I was younger, before the critical period, then my language acquisition device would still be working, and I could have used the universal grammar innate in all humans to have Japanese down pat. I'd probably be speaking up a storm by now, I tell you what.
hehe

Feels like it's the 20th century all over again. ;p Remember way back when people believed in God and critical periods? Back before we had new emergentist models, new scientific research, and the ability to mess with phantom limbs with augmented reality mirror boxes. And oops, apparently even CPH proponents still hanging on call them 'sensitive periods'--though by now redefined so vaguely as to be meaningless... kind of like lingering theories of innate language faculties...

Edit: Forgot to mention those two books on neuroplasticity, each representing beginning and most recent changes: The Myth of the First Three Years, and How the Brain Changes Itself. Sharon Begley also has a book on the topic, but I'm not sure if it's as neuroscientically sound as the other books I mentioned.
Edited: 2010-04-26, 4:49 am
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#24
Hmm, I used to think I was a linguist, but now I'm not Saussure. Clearly I'm really behind on my reading. I do remember critical periods, what the hell happened while I was away leaving the linguistics world in disgust?!

Thanks for the links nest0r, very interesting!
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#25
Nemotoad Wrote:Hmm, I used to think I was a linguist, but now I'm not Saussure. Clearly I'm really behind on my reading. I do remember critical periods, what the hell happened while I was away leaving the linguistics world in disgust?!

Thanks for the links nest0r, very interesting!
Wikipeda's 'neuroplasticity' article has a nice bit in the opening, beginning with... "During the 20th century, the consensus was that lower brain and neocortical areas were immutable in structure after childhood, meaning learning only happens by changing of connection strength, whereas areas related to memory formation, such as the hippocampus and dentate gyrus, where new neurons continue to be produced into adulthood, were highly plastic. This belief is being challenged by new findings, suggesting all areas of the brain are plastic even after childhood... " (Also see references in that and books in above comment)

See also: http://books.google.com/books?id=Mitx_Jq...22&f=false

http://www3.isrl.uiuc.edu/~junwang4/lang...lution.pdf

http://courses.cit.cornell.edu/psych215/...e-bug.html (bits about Christiansen after Kirby probably better explained in other thread on language evolution with more recent research -- also see Evolang link in that thread for another paper by Kirby in the archive)

Also: Andreas Demetriou's 'functional shift' model for relations to metacognition: http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Neo-Pia...evelopment

David Singleton on the topic: http://dialnet.unirioja.es/servlet/fiche...rden=84251

Brian MacWhinney: http://psyling.psy.cmu.edu/papers/CM-gen...nified.pdf

http://books.google.com/books?id=RuaF9grD5zIC

http://books.google.com/books?id=Qw7qj5nXSPUC


Anyway, you get the picture... ;p
Edited: 2010-04-26, 5:07 am
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