What if we use RTK with Japanese keywords instead of the English ones?

The keyword itself (or part of it) will be one of the readings.

If we started learning about 2000 Japanese words (the equivalent of the Heisig's English keywords) we can easily link the kanji with the Japanese word, and at the same time we learn one of the readings.

If we know that water in Japanese is mizu, we can link it as the keyword for 水 instead of the English keyword water, and we will know that one of the readings of this kanji is mizu (the kun reading).

We can link the Japanese word atsui as the keyword for 暑 instead of the English sultry, and we will get a bonus reading atsu. (kun)

If we know that cord/rope in Japanese is sakujou, we can link it as the keyword for 索 instead of the English cord, and we will get a bonus reading saku (in this case, the on reading.)


Which is faster, learning 2000 Japanese words and using them as keywords (and some of the readings) for the kanji, or using English keywords first then learning the readings?

Anyone tried this or want to try it?

From another thread:

welldone101 Wrote:

stevesayskanpai Wrote:Does it make sense to slowly replace keywords with Japanese words containing the "essence" of the keyword? This will usually be kunyomi readings of the kanji.

For example, I was thinking of replacing "shallow" with "asai" for 浅, or "homecoming" with "kaeru" for 帰. What do you think?

http://wrightak.googlepages.com/afterrtk1

He did most all the work for this. Download the spreadsheets and when you learn a Japanese word, replace your RTK with the Japanese. I add sentences with mine too for fun.

Thank you bodhisamaya, I searched for that thread and found it. That's what I wanted to know. I did not notice that thread before because I rarely browse RtK Volume 1 subforum.

He says that he has noticed the following improvements:

1. When he hear Japanese being spoken, he often will unconsciously visualise the associated kanji. This did not happen when he was reviewing with English keywords.

2. He can often guess the pronunciation of new words that contain kanji he know.

3. He can now talk to Japanese people about the kanji he know how to write by using the Japanese prompt.

4. He can now honestly say (to potential employers etc.) exactly how many kanji he can write.

5. He rarely have to look up kanji by radical or stroke count because he can usually type at least one pronunciation into his electronic dictionary or my pc.

6. No more frustrating confusion with the English keywords that have similar meanings.

7. No more frustration with English keywords he didn't agree with e.g. town = 村, village = 町 ???


But these improvements happened after learning RtK with the English keywords first (he first learn with the English then replaced them with the Japanese ones.)

What if started from the beginning with the Japanese keywords? Will the results be better and faster?

ahibba Wrote:Thank you bodhisamaya, I searched for that thread and found it. That's what I wanted to know. I did not notice that thread before because I rarely browse RtK Volume 1 subforum.

Sorry about no link to the thread. It was the link to wrightak's webpage I thought would be of most help.

Yes, I found the answer to my question in his FAQ page. He says:

wrightak Wrote:This is a bit of a hot topic. The very firm opinion on the forums seems to be that this work is best suited to those that have completed RTK 1. The fear is that some people may give up on RTK 1 half way through if they try and use Japanese prompts from the start.

My personal opinion is that if you want to, you should try it. I would be very interested to see how it works out.

I think I will try it with the Japanese keywords from the beginning, because I don't have problems with learning new words even if they are 2000.

I can add some keywords in my language if I need to.

Ahibba: Not very concise information, but here are some very old threads in which people shared their ideas about and experience with Japanese keywords:

http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=929

http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=278

http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=139

Thank you very much Thora, it seems that my experiment in Septmeber will no be so hard.

I think the problem is that you're essentially bypassing the entire point of RTK, which is to connect something unfamiliar and complex(the kanji) with something familiar and already stored robustly within your brain (the keyword). If for example, you tried to remember 暑 as あつい, that's all good and well if you already know the meaning of あつい, but if you don't know the word, then you have to try and remember a meaningless chain of hiragana. So your're trying to remember two things, the meaning and the pronunciation, but unless you're using some system of sound mnemonics, you have nothing for it to stick to. Sound mnemonics work well for onyomi, because the set of possible readings is quite low and are mostly monosyllabic, so it's easy to create reusable sound primitives that can be tied into your stories, but for kunyomi this could be really tricky. Good luck if you try this though. It could work well if you already have a high vocabulary.

I share Nadiatim's views on this. I think it would be better to have some Japanese ability/vocab to get the most out of RTK using Japanese prompts. (Although I imagine doing RTK in a language that's not your native language would present similar difficulties.) I suppose one could first memorize the Japanese vocab - I hadn't thought of that.

Also, please note that Wrightak attempted to select Japanese prompts close in meaning to Heisig's English keywords (because it was assumed people would have already completed RTK). So someone starting out with Japanese prompts might want to substitute a few words with more common ones. You could take a look at the chosen keywords in books like, for eg, Kanji in Context (adjusting for duplicates).

I'm not sure what your goals are for this experiment, Ahibba, but you might consider (a) not starting with RTK, (b) using only a subset of the RTK list, © learning them in a different order (particularly if you follow some sort of combined RTK/traditional approach). I think a divide-and-conquer approach in chunks works well. It's satisfying to apply it as you go and you avoid some forgetting/relearning.

nadiatims Wrote:I think the problem is that you're essentially bypassing the entire point of RTK, which is to connect something unfamiliar and complex(the kanji) with something familiar and already stored robustly within your brain (the keyword).

This is what will I do!

I will familiarize myself with those Japanese keywords first.

Actually, the English keywords themselves are NOT familiar to me! I'm not a native speaker. For example, when I saw the the keyword sultry for 暑, I had to look it in the dictionary because I never see this word before.

So I asked myself: if many of these English keywords are not known to me (e.g. facsimile, destitution, rectify, astringent, etc.) and I have to familiarize myself with them, why don't I familiarize myself with Japanese words instead?

Thora Wrote:(Although I imagine doing RTK in a language that's not your native language would present similar difficulties.) I suppose one could first memorize the Japanese vocab - I hadn't thought of that.

Exactly. This is what I tried to explain to nadiatims above.

Thora Wrote:You could take a look at the chosen keywords in books like, for eg, Kanji in Context (adjusting for duplicates).

I will use some of the keywords in Kanji Mnemonics. It's a nice book.

Thora Wrote:but you might consider (a) not starting with RTK, (b) using only a subset of the RTK list, © learning them in a different order (particularly if you follow some sort of combined RTK/traditional approach). I think a divide-and-conquer approach in chunks works well. It's satisfying to apply it as you go and you avoid some forgetting/relearning.

Yes, I may not confine myself with RTK only, I can use other books/methods as well (e.g. "Read Japanese Today" and "Kanji isn't that hard" are very good for few hundreds of kanji.)

I think the point at first to get them in your head on a familiar level. In that, you'd use your native language. Now, since English is not your native language, it's not a stretch to use your own language and make your own keywords.

On the other hand, if you already know Japanese fairly intimately, then using Japanese keywords would not be a problem. Guys like Tobberoth that have a year or two of Japanese probably have a solid vocabulary store to draw upon.

Here's what'll happen if you don't know Japanese and use Japanese keyword word: Kuruma.... hmm, kuruma means {whatever car means in native language}, for that I think of {story in native language for one, sun, one, stick}. Notice the two step process - translate to your language then think of story. So, what ever word you're using to relate Kuruma to this concept termed a "car" in English should be the keyword.

Japanese keywords work, it's just there's a good time to use them. Starting out with RTK with no Japanese is not one of those times.

Nukemarine Wrote:Starting out with RTK with no Japanese is not one of those times.

I will not start with no Japanese. I will learn the 2000 Japanese keywords first, and familiarize myself with them.

Whenever I learn a new Japanese word, I don't translate it into my language.

For example, when I see the word mizu whether written in kana or romaji, I don't translate it to water or the equivalent in my language, I instantly see a picture of water.

This applies not to concrete words only, even when I see a word like giri, I instantly understand the concept without the need to translate it into my language.

Something tells me you're not looking for advice. You've decided on what you're going to do, so please go ahead. By all means, post the results, but many of us will be wary as you seem to post contradictory information about yourself.

For anyone else reading this, I don't recommend starting off with Japanese or Chinese or Korean keywords for Kanji if the above are not your native language or one you have not got a decent grasp on. Switching to Japanese or Chinese or Korean keywords later on in your studies should not be much of a problem.

Nukemarine Wrote:For anyone else reading this, I don't recommend starting off with Japanese or Chinese or Korean keywords for Kanji if the above are not your native language or one you have not got a decent grasp on. Switching to Japanese or Chinese or Korean keywords later on in your studies should not be much of a problem.

Although I'd say Dutch is my native language, I use whatever keyword pops into my mind at that time first so mine is a colorful mix of Dutch, Cantonese, English and Mandarin. It works perfectly and often makes it easier to understand though sometimes I use more than one language to make me understand it. Just in case one doesn't you can switch on to the next

Nukemarine Wrote:Something tells me you're not looking for advice.

What is it? anyone in my situation is indeed looking for advice.

Nukemarine Wrote:but many of us will be wary as you seem to post contradictory information about yourself.

Contradictory information?! like what?

Nukemarine Wrote:I don't recommend starting off with Japanese or Chinese or Korean keywords for Kanji if the above are not your native language or one you have not got a decent grasp on. Switching to Japanese or Chinese or Korean keywords later on in your studies should not be much of a problem.

Thank you for your advice.

I'm not considering the English keywords. Now, I have two options:

1. To use the Japanese keyword.
2. Or to use keywords in my language.

I think I'll start with the Japanese, if it didn't work fine, I'll turn to the 2nd option.

ahibba Wrote:

Nukemarine Wrote:Something tells me you're not looking for advice.

What is it? anyone in my situation is indeed looking for advice.

What gives this impression is that every time someone gives you their opinion or advice edit:*'that goes against your own', you argue against it entirely and simply put forth your own opinion again. That is not taking advice, it's creating argument without ever giving ground.

*stamps the official RTK トロール•はなまる on ahibba's forehead and says『おめでとう〜♪』

LTze0 Wrote:What gives this impression is that every time someone gives you their opinion or advice edit:*'that goes against your own', you argue against it entirely and simply put forth your own opinion again. That is not taking advice, it's creating argument without ever giving ground.

In this thread?!

I just tried to explain to him that I will not start with no Japanese. I told him that I'll familiarize myself with Japanese keywords first.

If I do, is it a good idea, or is it better to use the English keywords? This was my question.

I understand the logic of your approach ahibba. It is indeed an interesting question, whether to learn the written or spoken language first. I think If the end goal in the long run is to learn both then the order shouldn't necessarily matter. But for all sorts of practical reasons (which I'll go into), I think learning to write as soon as possible makes a lot of sense and therefore recommend learning the kanji using keywords (in any language) you already know well. Remember that you'll eventually be learning a lot of different readings for each kanji anyway, so delaying that initial japanese keyword isn't such a big problem. Everything I've ever read by polyglots about learning languages is that books are the way to go. Books are like conversation partners that will speak at your own pace, never get bored, won't butcher their language in a misguided attempt to simplify things for you, provide well structured sentences from which to learn correct syntax, etc etc. I have no doubt that learning the language first through sound is the natural way to do it, but you're trying to learn in 3 months remember.

I disagree with most of the advice in this thread. (But I've been doing that for a while! )

Your final goal is to be able to write the kanji, read the kanji, and understand the meaning of the kanji. The biggest advantage of English keywords is speed. If you can burn through RTK 1 very quickly using English keywords and then move onto the readings and the true meanings, then that's great. I think the majority of people take quite a while to complete RTK 1 though.

For people who don't have the stamina to get through RTK 1 in under 3 months and for those whose native language isn't an RTK language (English, French, German, any others?), I think it would be better to associate the kanji with Japanese words from the beginning.

The approach advocated by Heisig, by the AJATT guy, and by most people on this thread is

1. Go through RTK 1 assigning stories to each kanji, to help you link an english word with the primitive elements in the kanji, thus remembering how to write it.
2. Take these characters that you're now familiar with and associate them with real Japanese words and vocab that appears in context.

My recommended approach is

1. Go through RTK 1 assigning stories to each kanji, to help you link a Japanese word with the primitive elements in the kanji, thus remembering how to write it.
2. Continue to study real Japanese words and vocab in context, which will help you to consolidate what you learnt in 1.

The difference between my approach and the previous one is that step 2 actually consolidates what you did in step 1 and you don't have to throw anything away. If you're reviewing using a JRTK anki deck, your reviews will improve and your retention will increase as you continue with step 2. This is because you'll learn more words that use the same kanji.

I, and many others on this forum, found that it got increasingly demotivating to continue reviewing with English keywords. You want to throw them away but if you stop reviewing, you forget how to write. Step 2 didn't consolidate step 1, it made me sick of it.

The other problem with the previous approach is that you really have to wait until step 1 is completed. With my approach, you're learning real Japanese right from the get-go. The JRTK vocab will popup in your other Japanese studies.

The problem with my approach is that there's not enough support for it. As Thora pointed out, the selection of JRTK words should be different for those that are starting from frame 1 and for those who have already completed RTK with English keywords. There also needs to be plenty of example sentences so that you can learn the meaning of the Japanese words.

ahibba, here's some advice: start learning Japanese. Stop creating hypothetical threads about your hypothetical study plans and start actually studying. Most of the things people have tried to explain here are actually quite obvious to people who have tried it themselves. So stop wasting people's time by asking so many hypothetical questions and just do it. You'll find what works and what does not soon enough.

Wrightak Wrote:There also needs to be plenty of example sentences so that you can learn the meaning of the Japanese words.

Hi Wrightak. So are you talking about people who already have some Japanese ability? The decision whether to go with Japanese prompts is trickier for beginners.

There's no doubt about the benefits you describe. The question is whether RTK works as well if there isn't something in one's brain to link the stories to. (It hadn't occurred to me that someone might try memorizing the meanings of the prompts first.)

Thora Wrote:Hi Wrightak. So are you talking about people who already have some Japanese ability? The decision whether to go with Japanese prompts is trickier for beginners.

I think the case is very strong for people who already have some Japanese vocab. For beginners, I don't think it's off the cards. I think it depends on the individual.

For example. my Dad has a terrible ear for foreign words. I tried to teach him ありがとうございます so many times and each time it came out like arigato gozamiz. For him, learning foreign words is difficult.

The beauty of Heisig's approach is that you can go through the entire book without having to speak or listen to any Japanese. If you're terrible at learning vocab and you have a bad ear, and if you've got a good imagination, you would probably be wise to concentrate on your strengths and get RTK 1 done and out of the way.

However, for people who are reasonably good at picking up vocab and learning languages, I think that it would make sense to use Japanese keywords. You don't have to blitz through it. You can take your time and you don't have to wait until the end for the pay off. Even when you're half way through, you'll have a decent collection of vocab under your belt and some knowledge that you can actually *use*! If you pause, you can move onto something else and come back to it later. Pausing or delaying with English keywords is a bad idea.

I just think it has to be written up carefully with a wise collection of Japanese words. Heisig's RTK needs an upgrade.

wrightak Wrote:

Thora Wrote:Hi Wrightak. So are you talking about people who already have some Japanese ability? The decision whether to go with Japanese prompts is trickier for beginners.

I think the case is very strong for people who already have some Japanese vocab. For beginners, I don't think it's off the cards. I think it depends on the individual.

For example. my Dad has a terrible ear for foreign words. I tried to teach him ありがとうございます so many times and each time it came out like arigato gozamiz. For him, learning foreign words is difficult.

The beauty of Heisig's approach is that you can go through the entire book without having to speak or listen to any Japanese. If you're terrible at learning vocab and you have a bad ear, and if you've got a good imagination, you would probably be wise to concentrate on your strengths and get RTK 1 done and out of the way.

However, for people who are reasonably good at picking up vocab and learning languages, I think that it would make sense to use Japanese keywords. You don't have to blitz through it. You can take your time and you don't have to wait until the end for the pay off. Even when you're half way through, you'll have a decent collection of vocab under your belt and some knowledge that you can actually *use*! If you pause, you can move onto something else and come back to it later. Pausing or delaying with English keywords is a bad idea.

I just think it has to be written up carefully with a wise collection of Japanese words. Heisig's RTK needs an upgrade.

So you're going to make stories in English that connect Japanese kanji to Japanese words? How do you go about doing that, exactly? If one was doing Japanese keywords, it would be far more useful to create stories in Japanese, but then you run into a situation where you can't because, oh yeah, you're not fluent yet.

I mean, have you really thought this through? You're going to learn the kanji, "人" and assign it a Japanese keyword-- let's say, "ひと". That's a primitive itself, and so simple that Heisig suggests just memorizing it without a story. Fine. That's one. However, the situation gets extremely complicated once you begin to memorize other characters that utilize that primitive: 借, for instance. The whole point of learning primitives and using stories is to build upon your previous knowledge, so now, instead of remembering a story in your native language, you have to remember a story that is a crude amalgamation of two different languages-- one you don't really know at all. So your story ends up something like this mess: ひと used to かりる things, back in むかし. What happens if you forget one of those words? The entire hierarchy begins to crumble and fall apart. And trust me, it's going to happen since you insist on cramming in a new word, a meaning assigned to that word, and a reading all together while you should be trying to remember a simple story, unrelated to language, per say.

You will develop mental associations with related Japanese vocabulary when you study the readings. Don't waste your time trying to do it all at once while you're working on the writing.