To anybody who has an interest in mimicry words. I recently picked up this book:
日本語擬態語辞典 by 五味太郎

Recently I've been adding giseigo and gitaigo to my anki deck by trying to find applicable pictures on the internet. However the pictures the teacher uses in class are amazing and the pictures I'm finding free on the net are NOT. So I decided to search for a good book with cool art to use as my flashcards. I found one! It's drawn by a famous comic and there is a great explanation on each page in Japanese and translated English for each word.

Anyway, currently I have half the book scanned and am starting an excel spreadsheet from scratch with the gitaigo, Japanese, English and picture (not sure if the picture will add the to the sheet or not, up to now I've only experimented with anki). If you also have an interest in mimicry words and are going to pick up a book, I recommend this one since the art is great and you'll get a free deck out of it! (or 50%, depending on how long this takes).

If you already own this book and want to help do any entries, send me a picture to let me know and I'll share the sheet with you. (weldontgreen at google's mail dot com)

I didn't want to jump in prematurely with this project on this forum, but I started it this weekend and knocked out a bunch really quickly so I'm thinking it will be doable and not take that long.

I got that book a couple of weeks ago, and have been typing up entries from it. Though I have just been type in the words and descriptions, and supplementing it with example sentences and extra definitions from yahoo.co.jp's dictionaries, and not scanning it. But I wouldn't mind helping out.

Flicking through the book again, I noticed there was a big list of other gitaigo in the back of the book. I thought that was just a contents page, but it is a list of other gitaigo. But there are no definitions for those. So in addition to the ones in the book, expanding on those (finding definitions and examples) might be good as well.

[Katsuo]

I went through the original edition of this book a few years ago. The page numbers are different (all minus 6) but the order is probably the same.

Here is the index for that edition supplemented with a few examples from another source.

wow ...see that is what i love about this site..the book recommendations are just golden. I clicked on the link...looked inside to the book to see what it is all about and dang...next thing you know i am using the "one-click" buy buttons(i hate that button). At 680円 you can go wrong with this information...cant wait to put this into anki. Thanks for the heads up!

Like many other aspects of Japanese, I wouldn't recommend learning them from a book. There is a ton of giongo & gitaigo that while valid, is no longer used. I remember doing an activity in basic Japanese where none of the native Japanese assistants even knew the meaning of half of the words.

The problem with 専門 books like that is that they always try to go for completeness instead of relevance.

Like slang, just pick up on stuff you hear in the wild and use that.

ps: I hope that isn't the author's real name, else he must have been teased a lot in school.

I have an older edition of this book and I can say from experience that most of them were outdated. This part of language must be changing fairly constantly.

If you find them interesting, go ahead and study them. But take it with a grain of salt. Nobody may understand you if you try to use them ^_^

Jarvik7 Wrote:Like many other aspects of Japanese, I wouldn't recommend learning them from a book. There is a ton of giongo & gitaigo that while valid, is no longer used. I remember doing an activity in basic Japanese where none of the native Japanese assistants even knew the meaning of half of the words.

The problem with 専門 books like that is that they always try to go for completeness instead of relevance.

Like slang, just pick up on stuff you hear in the wild and use that.

ps: I hope that isn't the author's real name, else he must have been teased a lot in school.

I of course had these same worries when studying this. As these words are not so much words as ideas conveyed by sound. When I received the book I couldn't believe that there were almost 200 of these in one book with an index of non-included words almost doubling that and that an average Japanese person would actually know all these. So I blind tested my friends from the contents with random sampling. Low and behold they knew them all. I really have faith in this author that she picked a lot of ones that are firmly embedded in the language. The introduction is fairly convincing (much like Heisig's).

There's also, I noticed, a pretty big difference between giseigo, gitaigo, and giongo. Giongo changes by the day and is made up in droves by everybody and every manga author. But giseigo and gitaigo seem (to my unstudied, no-idea-what-i'm-talking-about eye) to be more consistent.

Like slang, I'm picking it up on the way and also researching it a little so that I am able to pick it up on the way easier.

It probably is her real name. (I think it's a her...)

kerosan41 Wrote:If you find them interesting, go ahead and study them. But take it with a grain of salt. Nobody may understand you if you try to use them ^_^

Thanks for the heads up! I'll try to clear them all with a native on the way.

Katsuo Wrote:I went through the original edition of this book a few years ago. The page numbers are different (all minus 6) but the order is probably the same.

Here is the index for that edition supplemented with a few examples from another source.

Well this saves a ton of work for some people and gives me some great ideas for mine as well! Thanks for all the hard work.

welldone101 Wrote:It probably is her real name. (I think it's a her...)

With a name like Tarou, that seems even worse for a girl than just being called 'Gomi'. But he is a he; his picture is on the inside flap of the cover (on my edition, anyway).

Looking through the book again, I can see a fair number which I've seen used, so I don't think it'd be a complete waste studying it.

albion Wrote:

welldone101 Wrote:It probably is her real name. (I think it's a her...)

With a name like Tarou, that seems even worse for a girl than just being called 'Gomi'. But he is a he; his picture is on the inside flap of the cover (on my edition, anyway).

Looking through the book again, I can see a fair number which I've seen used, so I don't think it'd be a complete waste studying it.

Wow, he really threw me off by talking about his love of flower arranging during the intro...

Jarvik7 Wrote:Like many other aspects of Japanese, I wouldn't recommend learning them from a book. There is a ton of giongo & gitaigo that while valid, is no longer used.

Similarly, words like "kapow", "splat" & "swish" and hardly ever used in English while words like "kerching", "zap", "buzz" & "bang" are commonplace. I don't think there's any harm in learning them all. Usage frequency can be discovered later; the important thing is to be able to recognise them all when they do appear. It's also rather difficult to "pick up on stuff you hear in the wild" while living several thousands miles away!

みんなうんち！

[Katsuo]

Nuriko Wrote:みんなうんち！

Some pages from the above. (Also by 五味太郎)

My edition uses "poo" and "bum". That must be an American translator. =]


[edit: I don't reallyhave the book, the translation just struck me as funny. I figured it was intentional - it's for toddlers after all]

Katsuo Wrote:

Nuriko Wrote:みんなうんち！

Some pages from the above. (Also by 五味太郎)

Thanks for this! I read this to the kids I work with and can never keep a straight/un-blushing face (which is probably the most entertaining part for them, making fun of me :B). It's especially hard once I reach the part with the animals that stop and poop/the ones who shit while running. And the baby with the legs open wide while pooping into his diaper which is thankfully laid out on the ground.

Yay I learned some words!

That's a pretty poor translation by someone who is obviously a beginner

うんち obviously doesn't have the same impact in Japanese that "shit" does in English (something cutesy like poopy would be more accurate). Same for おしり and "ass". I guess the translator doesn't know about くそ and けつ.

かたち is translated as "ways" and におい is translated as place o_O

A series of phrases is turned into sentences. At times it's horrible 直訳 while at other times it takes big liberties.

That translation is poop.

Jarvik7 Wrote:[...]
Same for おしり and "ass". I guess the translator doesn't know about くそ and けつ.

[...]

That translation is poop.

Although I agree "the trans. is poop" I think maybe he was going for more of the entertainment value than accurate translation. However, and correct me if I'm wrong, oshiri (and I assume unchi) can have a wider range of meanings based on context. I mean for example the phrase 尻軽 which definitely would not be in a kids book.

So I assume that you can get unchi in a phrase where the Eng. trans. might be "$hit"... ?

welldone101 Wrote:

Jarvik7 Wrote:[...]
Same for おしり and "ass". I guess the translator doesn't know about くそ and けつ.

[...]

That translation is poop.

Although I agree "the trans. is poop" I think maybe he was going for more of the entertainment value than accurate translation. However, and correct me if I'm wrong, oshiri (and I assume unchi) can have a wider range of meanings based on context. I mean for example the phrase 尻軽 which definitely would not be in a kids book.

So I assume that you can get unchi in a phrase where the Eng. trans. might be "$hit"... ?

おしり and うんち are cute versions of the words. Same as "bum" and "poo". Sure you can use them in a non-child friendly way like "poo stabber" or whatever and I'm sure there has to be at least one scat fetish AV dvd out there with うんち in the title, but that's unrelated to the book translated. It's worth noting that the お on おしり significantly changes the tone from just しり. I think the fact that they were translated as swear words suggests that the translator wasn't aware of the crude versions that are also in Japanese. Anyways, かたち and におい being mistranslated is a much bigger mistake. It's obvious whoever did it just used EDICT and pulled up a random partial match. ~かた from かたち for ~way of doing and に from におい as a location marker. They are both words that even a JLPT4 level person should know.

I'm not sure if the elementary mistranslations are the result of dictionary-related incompetence or just bad Japanese, but the fact that he mentions his Japanese teacher is reassuring to those of us travelling the self-taught route.

harhol Wrote:I'm not sure if the elementary mistranslations are the result of dictionary-related incompetence or just bad Japanese, but the fact that he mentions his Japanese teacher is reassuring to those of us travelling the self-taught route.

Classes are just another tool. Like most other tools, most 2nd language users misuse the tool (by expecting to become fluent just by doing the homework).

Jarvik7 Wrote:

harhol Wrote:I'm not sure if the elementary mistranslations are the result of dictionary-related incompetence or just bad Japanese, but the fact that he mentions his Japanese teacher is reassuring to those of us travelling the self-taught route.

Classes are just another tool. Like most other tools, most 2nd language users misuse the tool (by expecting to become fluent just by doing the homework).

So true. We should save this quote down and place it on every site where AJATT fanatics tell everyone how shitty classes are just because they've had bad experiences.

OK... I think my post has been blown slightly out of proportion. I'm not an AJATT "fanatic", nor did I say classes are "shitty". I said it's reassuring that people with professional tutors are capable of making elementary mistakes, i.e. paying for lessons with a native speaker doesn't ensure accuracy. The point is moot anyway since I couldn't afford lessons even if I wanted them.

harhol Wrote:OK... I think my post has been blown slightly out of proportion. I'm not an AJATT "fanatic", nor did I say classes are "shitty". I said it's reassuring that people with professional tutors are capable of making elementary mistakes, i.e. paying for lessons with a native speaker doesn't ensure accuracy. The point is moot anyway since I couldn't afford lessons even if I wanted them.

Sorry, my post was directed at the community in general, not your post. I agree with what you said that even people with professional tutors make mistakes and it's something well remembered by self-study people.

On the original subject:

http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/onomatopedia/

Good supporting resource? It seems to find example sentences from websites and blogs using the onomatopedia.

welldone101 Wrote:

Jarvik7 Wrote:Like many other aspects of Japanese, I wouldn't recommend learning them from a book. There is a ton of giongo & gitaigo that while valid, is no longer used. I remember doing an activity in basic Japanese where none of the native Japanese assistants even knew the meaning of half of the words.

The problem with 専門 books like that is that they always try to go for completeness instead of relevance.

Like slang, just pick up on stuff you hear in the wild and use that.

ps: I hope that isn't the author's real name, else he must have been teased a lot in school.

I of course had these same worries when studying this. As these words are not so much words as ideas conveyed by sound. When I received the book I couldn't believe that there were almost 200 of these in one book with an index of non-included words almost doubling that and that an average Japanese person would actually know all these. So I blind tested my friends from the contents with random sampling. Low and behold they knew them all. I really have faith in this author that she picked a lot of ones that are firmly embedded in the language. The introduction is fairly convincing (much like Heisig's).

There's also, I noticed, a pretty big difference between giseigo, gitaigo, and giongo. Giongo changes by the day and is made up in droves by everybody and every manga author. But giseigo and gitaigo seem (to my unstudied, no-idea-what-i'm-talking-about eye) to be more consistent.

Like slang, I'm picking it up on the way and also researching it a little so that I am able to pick it up on the way easier.

It probably is her real name. (I think it's a her...)

kerosan41 Wrote:If you find them interesting, go ahead and study them. But take it with a grain of salt. Nobody may understand you if you try to use them ^_^

Thanks for the heads up! I'll try to clear them all with a native on the way.

I did the same thing with a Japanese friend. Went through the whole book and the person knew ALL of them. They even told me that I should try to learn all of them.

So I would be inclined to disagree with people who say that the book is outdated.