Codexus Wrote:Actually, while it made me laugh when it was first launched for the sheer craziness of that idea. I find this "Heisigspeak" to be extremely annoying, especially when it appears at random in non Kanji-lish-related topics on this forum.Same here. I kinda wish that script was client-side only, and didn't actually affect text you submit in forms (e.g. message boards).
jorgebucaran Wrote:You can control Kanji-lishing pages so it's not annoying as if it was getting in your way cluttering the text. You get to decide. This is fun.It might not be getting in your way, but it gets in mine when people post the way the thread creator did.
vgambit Wrote:Ha, ha, ha... you're infected too, better get a cootie shot.jorgebucaran Wrote:You 可an 轄ontrol Kanji-lishing pages so it's 勿ot annoying as if it was getting 中n your way cluttering the text. You get to 決ecide. This is fun.It might 勿ot be getting 中n your way, but it gets 中n mine when 民eople 職ost the way the 糸hread creator did.
Tobberoth Wrote:I'd say the tool is bad, possibly detrimental. Tons of useless kanji<->english going on.Wait, the tool is not bad. Some effort was put into it. I don't know if it's detrimental because I haven't use it enough and neither anybody else here so far but I think is arguably and you are probably right because you are not really learning much Japanese or just not Japanese at all. However the tool does have an use, even if it's just for fun and won't make it a week in your Addons library.
Tobberoth Wrote:I'd say the tool is bad, possibly detrimental. Tons of useless kanji<->english going on.Isn't that basically saying Heisig is useless? I mean, I don't think it's useless. The whole purpose, I'd say, is to kind of "sneak in" some studying when you have to read English. I just cannot see how this could be detrimental. Anything that is reinforcing a facet of Japanese as you go about your daily life should be helping you, really.
thermal Wrote:I am also skeptical if the net effect is positive. I think once you know a kanji as in know the meaning, know the common words in which it appears and know its common readings, it's better to forget the association to English. You also want to keep this association as weak as possilbe. The important thing is that you remember the story which tells you how to write it and the meaning (as in the feel of it) not the keyword. I'm afraid this plugin is going to create strong ties between Japanese and English.Agreed. And if that wasn't enough, this gives extra exposure (making the SRSing easier which might mess with long term memory) without the added benefit of being real Japanese exposure where one can learn new words and readings.
sethg Wrote:I just cannot see how this could be detrimental.When you look at 愛, the first thing that should pop up in your head is あい, not 'love'.
iSoron Wrote:When you look at 愛, the first thing that should pop up in your head is あい, not 'love'.But... isn't that... later on... when you know all the kanji? I mean, if you're going to use that kind of logic against Kanji-lish, then you should use it against Heisig as well. We're all using Heisig and we're all learning to associate the keywords... but we all know that, yeah, one day, we're gonna see 愛 and think あい, we're gonna see 愛しい and think いとしい. That doesn't mean that we should immediately start making flashcards that have the kanji on one side and the readings on the other.
語 should be ご, not 'word'. 敷 should be しく, しき, not 'spread'.
Tobberoth Wrote:And if that wasn't enough, this gives extra exposure (making the SRSing easier which might mess with long term memory)What's the difference between extra exposure through kanji-lish and extra exposure through real Japanese? If you don't know the readings yet... and you're still in the process of Heisig, there isn't really a difference. And to state that extra exposure "messes" with long term memory... :: sigh ::. The SRS is a tool to be used. But should you fail a card no matter what if you accidentally saw that kanji and it's meaning while flipping through Heisig earlier in the day?
sethg Wrote:I mean, if you're going to use that kind of logic against Kanji-lish, then you should use it against Heisig as well. We're all using Heisig and we're all learning to associate the keywords.With RTK, we are connecting keywords to kanji, not the other way round. The kanji to keyword link remains foggy, even after you finish the book, and can be easily replaced by other, more meaningful associations, like kanji to reading. With Kanji-lish, you're actively reinforcing a link you'll want to discard later on, so it makes no sense.
Tobberoth Wrote:I'd say the tool is bad, possibly detrimental. Tons of useless kanji<->english going on.You say this over and over. Tell me, do you expect the Firefox app that this guy wrote to actually figure out the context of the english, and give you the correct kanji? The idea of the program is to give you the keyword to the kanji, nothing more... perhaps to jog your memory... yet you still complain that it doesn't give you the right kanji to the english context. Here's a tip: Don't depend on it for that.
sethg Wrote:What's the difference between extra exposure through kanji-lish and extra exposure through real Japanese? If you don't know the readings yet... and you're still in the process of Heisig, there isn't really a difference. And to state that extra exposure "messes" with long term memory... :: sigh ::. The SRS is a tool to be used. But should you fail a card no matter what if you accidentally saw that kanji and it's meaning while flipping through Heisig earlier in the day?The extra exposure from real Japanese is real Japanese, it's what you're supposed to learn. New words, new readings, kanji in their proper context. Even if it's slightly detrimental to the pure kanji writing and recognition aspects, it's worth it because of everything else you learn from it. And that, is the difference.
Tobberoth Wrote:The extra exposure from real Japanese is real Japanese, it's what you're supposed to learn. New words, new readings, kanji in their proper context. Even if it's slightly detrimental to the pure kanji writing and recognition aspects, it's worth it because of everything else you learn from it. And that, is the difference.Using this logic, I absolutely couldn't create any kind of immersion environment and still do RTK. If I failed every kanji card on my SRS just because I'd seen it in a caption, book, manga, or doodled it on my paper during class, I would never finish the book, because I'd be too busy reviewing failed cards.
As for extra exposure messing with long term memory, it's really nothing to sigh about. There was a big discussion topic about it some months ago where I was on your side but people posted TONS of scientific articles about how proper SRSing gives better long-term memory than over exposure.
You SHOULD fail a card if you saw it when browsing through the Heisig book the day before, but how will you remember? "Oh, I saw this kanji on a website using kanjilish 5 days ago, i need to fail it!". Not going to happen.
iSoron Wrote:With RTK, we are connecting keywords to kanji, not the other way round. The kanji to keyword link remains foggy, even after you finish the book, and can be easily replaced by other, more meaningful associations, like kanji to reading. With Kanji-lish, you're actively reinforcing a link you'll want to discard later on, so it makes no sense.I think that if you have kanji-lish replacing the whole word, this is no different than trying to guess the meaning of new word (from the kanji) you don't yet know in a Japanese book, manga, or magazine. Is that detrimental? I mean... sure, your eventual goal is to know kanji in context, the readings of words, but until you've really got all 2042 at least in your head, I think kanji-lish could be really helpful.
TaylorSan Wrote:This is also why I like doing both, they mutually reinforce, and the fun/motivation factor is personally more beneficial for me, than any lack of efficiency I encounter upon coming across unfamiliar kanji, in the mining/SRS repsWell said.
TaylorSan Wrote:[i]f you have well moved beyond key words, then I can imagine how the application might feel "annoying". Romaji feels that way to me. But like many here, I'm still working on my mastery of the Heisig stage, so I feel the benefit of the app, for the time being.Also, very well said. I think this is just it. I think that if you've already moved beyond RTK and feel confident with your kanji to meaning associations, there's no huge reason to use kanji-lish (though, I think I still might... just for the extra review and the fun of it). During the RTK stage, though, I think the real focus should be as much kanji viewing and association as possible. Hell, if I could sleep with a kind of kanji-lish screen-saver floating above my eyes, I'd totally do it.
sethg Wrote:Using this logic, I absolutely couldn't create any kind of immersion environment and still do RTK. If I failed every kanji card on my SRS just because I'd seen it in a caption, book, manga, or doodled it on my paper during class, I would never finish the book, because I'd be too busy reviewing failed cards.You're absolutely right, the same is true for real Japanese. There are still many differences. Using Kanjilish is similar to simply entering the same kanji card in Anki several times so you are exposed to it way more often. I mean it's the same thing, connection between a kanji and an English keyword. You wouldn't enter a kanji into an SRS several times though since everyone knows that's counter-productive.
I can see how you're very concerned about long-term memory and that's understandable, but I think that it's important to consider, really, what we're learning here. We are learning Kanji. These characters are things that, if we continue to study and learn Japanese, and read Japanese, we're going to see hundreds upon thousands of times. I don't think we should all be incredibly focused on embedding that kanji into our long-term memory at the risk of neglecting other fun and different ways of studying. We're going to be seeing and using those same kanji a lot later on when doing sentences (or, if you don't plan to do sentences, when reading).
As for the difference between kanji-lish and real Japanese, I can see how you'd lean towards the more natural thing here, but going back to your previous argument, wouldn't you have to fail all the kanji you saw and recalled the keyword for?
