After finishing RTK LITE and asked where to continue I decided to continue with Genki Textbooks. Do you think it's good to learn all kanji facts grouped after kanji before continuing learning japanese?

Genki Textbook uses around 800 kanji facts. Around half consist of only one kanji and match heisigs meaning. The other half consists of multiple kanjis.

Example: 日 is used in 28 facts, you find 8 most used kanjis in more than 100 facts.

Disadvantage of this approach is that you can not start using Genki textbook before finishing. Advantage is that on-yomi are very easy to learn and distinguish.

sounds boring plus what about vocabulary that just uses hiragana/katkana. they're pretty useful too you know.

anyways if you do do it that way you're basiclaly doing sentence method except doing it in that specific order/theme because without context you relaly don't know what the word means.

This approach is considered for kanji facts. Learning kana facts obviously do not fit into a "Learn vocabulary in most-used-kanji order" concept.

I was also considering a sentence method but thanks to relying completely on heisig method I neither know vocabulary nor grammar.

I made it to about 900 in Heisig before I started getting a little restless. I popped over to Iknow and started the first 200 of the core 2000. They are supposedly in some kind of frequency of use order. There are still quite a few kanji that come up which I didn't know yet from only studying about half of the first book.

I have continued to add about 30 kanji a day from the book, but I have also added in the ones that have come up in Iknow. I look up the new radicals in the book and learn them. I'm using anki for my reviews, so it has the flexibility to add out of order. I don't know if you could do this using the review on this site, but if you have done the RTK lite, you probably won't come across as many new ones as I did.

Anyway, I have enjoyed spending half my time learning to recognize new kanji and the other half actually learning Japanese. I'm sure some would argue the efficiency of doing so, but only doing Rtk was sapping my motivation fast. I have noticed quite a difference in my comprehension when watching/listening to Japanese stuff. Now I probably understand about 5 words a minute as opposed to 1, haha.

jokoto Wrote:I was also considering a sentence method but thanks to relying completely on heisig method I neither know vocabulary nor grammar.

I'd consider getting some grammar studies done along with vocab. Find some good simple sentences, whether in Tae Kim grammar guide or Genki or iKnow and start studying those. Pick up the vocabulary as you start using the language. With RTK Lite you're ready to read basic texts - that's where I'd begin.

I see if it really brings me forward to learn everything grouped: start with learning words, after doing that I'll try to make sentences of them and learn how to do that (grammar).

baldy514, You could take a look into RTK LITE for remaining 1.000 kanjis, there may be only 350-400 kanjis left for you to have more than enough kanjis for thousands of vocabs. I did RTK LITE (1.000 JLPT kanjis + 1.000 primitives needed) but I'd be better off to learn less actually, as reviewing unused kanjis is not that motivational. It would be a burden to have hundreds of kanjis more to be remembered.

jokoto Wrote:I see if it really brings me forward to learn everything grouped: start with learning words, after doing that I'll try to make sentences of them and learn how to do that (grammar).

baldy514, You could take a look into RTK LITE for remaining 1.000 kanjis, there may be only 350-400 kanjis left for you to have more than enough kanjis for thousands of vocabs. I did RTK LITE (1.000 JLPT kanjis + 1.000 primitives needed) but I'd be better off to learn less actually, as reviewing unused kanjis is not that motivational. It would be a burden to have hundreds of kanjis more to be remembered.

Not really. Finishing RtK1 takes no time in relation to how long you will be studying vocabulary, listening and all the other things. Doing RTK Lite over RtK1 might save you a month of kanji study.. but then again, you only know half of the kanji needed for JLPT1.

To play devil's advocate: 1000 most common kanji (1 month @ 2 hours per day). The most basic 100 grammar rules via 450 example sentences (1 month @ 2 hours a day, in addition to upkeep on kanji) followed up by 2000 basic vocabulary example sentences (4 months@ 2 hours in addition to upkeep on kanji and grammar sentences). That's six months using figures that were scientifically pulled out of my ass.

Now, in that time, the student hopefully is having fun in Japanese (manga, dramas, music). Once you begin sentences, you start understanding more and more Japanese. Add on vocabulary and even more Japanese opens to you. Hopefully the student notices that quite a few words has Kanji (and maybe primitives) new to her. After the six months of formal study compounded with Japanese media, she can roll around and do all of RTK1 (maybe 1 month), then advanced grammar sentences (another month or less), then 4000 example vocabulary sentences (8 months). The student will be at 16 months, having studied 2 hours a day with much, much more Japanese input.

Yeah, the student could have done all the RTK up front. Problem is, you've got her investing in something with no early returns. Get the success building up early on, you create momentum that can hold less dedicated students. In addition, we've built a variety of knowledge that helps create understanding in any Japanese media she watches.

Doing some form of RTK Lite (how well does the current version pair up with KO/iKnow? Would it be better to 'update' it with a version based on those?), and then continuing on to doing Japanese the Manga Way (or your favourite grammar guide) sentences and iKnow C2k in the Kanji Odyssey order, that would be my current recommendation to beginners. Aim for 2000+ kanji, but deviate from the frequency-list along the way according to your needs. (I think it best to continue doing RTK1 while doing sentences after RTK Lite, and do Japanese the Manga Way/Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar while doing RTK Lite, but whatever.) This, in addition to the obvious of plenty of Japanese input outside the SRS (active and passive reinforcement). I'm reminded of that other thread on learning by frequency. I think the only update since then would be the KO/iKnow project?

I accept arguments against adhering too strictly to a frequency-based list, though I do think it's easy enough and there are basic correlations if your focus is on kanji (due to the standardization), with vocabulary being incidental, since the corpora that companies were creating their sentences from were more limited but now that we have subs2srs, we can have more customizable vocabulary lists made by ourselves based on diverse native media.

jokoto Wrote:baldy514, You could take a look into RTK LITE for remaining 1.000 kanjis, there may be only 350-400 kanjis left for you to have more than enough kanjis for thousands of vocabs. I did RTK LITE (1.000 JLPT kanjis + 1.000 primitives needed) but I'd be better off to learn less actually, as reviewing unused kanjis is not that motivational. It would be a burden to have hundreds of kanjis more to be remembered.

I'll look into that over the weekend. My current study plan is 2-3 hours weeknights and 5-6 hours on weekends mixing up IKnow, RTK, and reading. I also do a mental review of what is and isn't working over the weekend and try to set up a new plan for the week. I've only been doing the Iknow for a couple of weeks, but it is so refreshing after about three or four weeks of pure RTK. I tried the KO2001 lists for a while, but I think I prefer the regular Iknow core list for the time being. I think I might finish the first 400 in the core then go back and hit the KO lists for vocab that I haven't covered. BTW Nukemarine, I have the book now. I'm going to look at the project thread over the weekend and see if I can pitch in for a list or two.

I bought the Japanese the Manga Way book you mentioned last week, and I skim it to get an idea of things during lunch or when I have spare time. I tried grammar about a month ago but found it way over my head. Now I've listened enough and studied enough that the concepts make a little more sense. I'll probably add sentences from the book into my regimen soon. Variety is the spice of life, right?