I am continuing to learn for long-term-goal JLPT 2. Thanks to your comments, I completed RTK LITE and kanjis needed for GENKI textbooks:

http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=1976

BUILDING VOCABULARY & KANJI READINGS. I am planning to just learn genki vocabs (1150) which includes 600 JLPT 2 kanjis. This will give me an introduction to kanji combinations (ON-READINGS) as well as single kanjis (KUN-READINGS). KO also seems good, but needs some basic grammar I do not know.

GRAMMAR. Genki will give me a good start. UBJG seems to be good, but I do not have any vocabulary.

LISTENING SKILLS. Genki course could be a good start as I have CDs for it. Thinking of adding PIMSLEUR, too.

Why are you studying specifically for JLPT2? Learn the rest of the kanji and go for JLPT1 instead.

Thanks for your feedback. I am very happy to have RTK LITE completed and am hungry to learn some "real" japanese. To focus on topic, it would be best to only discuss whats best to do aiming for JLPT 2. Where would you start?

Here's a rough step by step I recommended to friend. He's Chinese so the Kanji are already good, but here goes

1. Use UBJG or Tae Kim as a grammar source. Just do the 180 sentences from basic sentences.

As these are grammar cards, I only care about the grammar of the card being the failing reason. For Japanese to Reading, I have the grammar portion of the sentence highlighted just like on Tae Kims. You can also do that with UBJG.

I also go English to Japanese, but that's because I use Tae Kim's. I add more details to the English sentence (ex: polite) and to the description of the grammar rule (ex: ては+ならない or　+ておく abbreviated). Again, it's mainly for recalling the rule briefly.

2. After these are learned and added, go for 400 words from iKnow.

As these are vocabulary, I dictate the vocabulary word only but I listen to the entire sentence. I also do reading, where I see the word in Kanji and must properly pronounce it. I also read out the sentence that uses it. In Anki, I fail the card if I read it or write the vocabulary word incorrectly. I mark it difficult if I miss other parts of the sentence.

3. Next step is the Essential Grammar from Tae Kim, following process of step 1.

4. Next step is rest of Common Core, again doing step 2 process.

I'm not sure, but you can continue on with Advanced grammar and then Core 6000.

During all this, I've been reading manga or watching videos.

Now, truth be told I've been doing about 30 minutes a day with RTK3 reviewing due cards and adding new ones, 30 minutes a day review with Tae Kim's reviewing due cards and adding new sentences, and 60 minutes with iKnow vocabulary. So it's entirely possible to merge steps above.

As mentioned in "Reflection on Kanji Stats", using RTK Lite will cover a majority of any words you add via iKnow. Just remember to keep your reviews up on the RTK that you have learned, maybe even move them to Anki. What you can also do if you've added them to Anki is add new Kanji when you come across them in your grammar or vocabulary sentences.

PS: It wouldn't hurt if each sentence you add you write out at least once. After that, I don't think it's necessary.

Tobberoth, as a complete beginner aiming to achieve hardest japanese language test is too high for me. JLPT 2 sounds like a good "milestone" to work for, doesn't it? Japanese is not my highest priority in regards of study, anyway.

Nukemarine, Starting with grammar looks good, but I do not have any vocabulary. So I would have to learn vocabulary & grammar in same time. As having great time with divide and conquer method of heisig, continuing by learning vocab first sounds great, too. Which "400 word list" from iKnow did you mention? Japanese Core 2000:Step 1 and Step 2 Sounds interesting I already have mined all of Genkis 1.200 vocab and learned all kanjis for it. Maybe I'll doing Genki?

I think there were a discussion here about whether its better to learn complete sentences instead of vocabulary words. I'll take a look into this.

jokoto Wrote:I think there were a discussion here about whether its better to learn complete sentences instead of vocabulary words. I'll take a look into this.

There's isn't any discussion, it's just experienced people telling new people they NEED to use complete sentences. Short sentences by all means, but NEVER standalone words. Harder to remember, you don't learn the actual usage, you don't get the benefit of learning grammar at the same time etc etc.

Jokoto, I think your goal of passing JLPT 2 sounds good. As arbitrary as the test may be, it is something that you can put on your resume and easily explain to other people. That seems like it'd be especially nice if you're learning on your own--you can't exactly show a transcript. It's a pretty high goal to aim for as a beginner, but it's attainable with time and study. And you get a nice certificate in the mail when you pass:



If you feel so inclined, you can frame it and hang it on the wall next to whatever else you may have framed. Once you get to that point, you'll have a foundation in Japanese that will let you approach lots of other goals. And of course, at all points along the way, you can complain about JLPT to other people studying Japanese.

I'm wouldn't be much help on early prep because I started with regular classes but Genki and the other resources sounded reasonable. Once you are ready for a mock exam, I would recommend Unicom's "Find out your weak points! Japanese Proficiency Mock Test . . ." From Google, I found it at http://www.whiterabbitpress.com/product....269&page=1 I'm sure there are other places, too.

I tried the level 1 version, and I liked it better than the regular past exam or mock exam books because it gives some feedback on what kinds of mistakes you tend to make, where you should focus your energy, subsection scores and times, etc. I thought the listening section was much harder than the actual exam though, at least for level 1, not because the voices were fast or unclear but because the questions were more subtle.

I'll go with Genki course doing lessions one after one. Its teacher cd set is great for listening. After completing Genki, Unicoms books look interesting.

Is it true JLPT does not need much speaking abilities? Then it is easier to learn from japanese to english (understanding) rather than from english to japanese (speaking, producing japanese).

Yes, it's all comprehension rather than production, but it would be awfully frustrating to know enough to pass JLPT 2 but not be able to interact with anyone. I can't imagine waiting that long to try speaking.

Maybe it would be helpful for you to read a bit more about the test itself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_La...iency_Test

I applied to a japanese course. Just need to know if it's better to focus on understanding for JLPT.

jokoto Wrote:I applied to a japanese course. Just need to know if it's better to focus on understanding for JLPT.

It's always better to focus on understanding, regardless of goals and language. The question is how early you want to start outputting. Personally I lived in Japan so I had to start outputting fast. I don't regret it one bit, I speak Japanese extremely well for my level which has many uses. In an optimal situation though, you should only output in situations where you've already attained a comfortable degree of understanding, that lets you learn the most without making too many mistakes.

I'd say that probably most people who pass JLPT2 still have very weak production skills. JLPT is good as a bare minimum (for a resume etc), but it's not a very reliable indicator of total Japanese skill.

Tobberoth Wrote:Why are you studying specifically for JLPT2? Learn the rest of the kanji and go for JLPT1 instead.

That frankly seems kind of dumb to me. If he is starting from 0 grammar and vocab knowledge, his goal should be JLPT4. That doesn't mean he needs to take JLPT4, but that should be his first milestone. Once he's getting good grades on previous tests for that, do 3級 and so on. More frequent small steps are a lot better than one giant leap.

That said, there is no point in ever taking the actual test until you need it for school admission or your resume.

Genki Course is my current learning tool. Genki Textbook I will cover some parts of JLPT 4 where Textbook II will cover most of JLPT 3.

JLPT 2 is my ultimate goal and therefore I am asking you what to do next. Its like Heisig: His goal is not JLPT 4 kanjis, instead it's all 2.000 kanjis. And only because of that the whole way of kanji learning is different than a "I learn the 80 kanjis for JLPT 4". You can include all 230 radicals. You can use other kanjis as primitives. Not that possible to do that if only learning kanjis for JLPT 4. My goal is not fluency and therefore not 2.000 kanjis, that's why I did not follow his whole approach, but did learn all JLPT 2 and Genki kanjis including their primitives. It's very interesting how different goals will give new different approaches in learning a language.

Because of your feedback I decided to concentrate on listening. Listening to Genkis Interactive Audio Lessions is more fun than I thought.

Jarvik7 Wrote:I'd say that probably most people who pass JLPT2 still have very weak production skills. JLPT is good as a bare minimum (for a resume etc), but it's not a very reliable indicator of total Japanese skill.

Tobberoth Wrote:Why are you studying specifically for JLPT2? Learn the rest of the kanji and go for JLPT1 instead.

That frankly seems kind of dumb to me. If he is starting from 0 grammar and vocab knowledge, his goal should be JLPT4. That doesn't mean he needs to take JLPT4, but that should be his first milestone. Once he's getting good grades on previous tests for that, do 3級 and so on. More frequent small steps are a lot better than one giant leap.

That said, there is no point in ever taking the actual test until you need it for school admission or your resume.

So I take it you learned 100 kanji, then all the grammar and vocabulary for JLPT4, THEN you learned the other 400 kanji for JLPT3 etc? Sounds like a very bad idea IMO. Pick a goal. Go for it 100%. Sure you want to see progress on the way but if you can get to a higher goal faster, why slow yourself down?

If you know you want to become fluent, why not learn 2000 kanji right away?

As for jokoto, would you mind me asking why you're satisfied with JLPT2? I've already passed it and I can tell you, it isn't enough to be satisfied. If you have a specific goal with Japanese, you will probably want to get to a higher level anyway, but it sounds to me like you have some specific reason why you want just JLPT2 (saying you're not aiming to become fluent). If you don't want to become fluent, why do you even want to learn it?

I need JLPT 2 for my resume. JLPT 3 is not worth that much and JLPT 1 is in direct competition with my studies which are much more important than JLPT. So I'll go with JLPT 2. That said, I do like learning japanese very much, I just have to do a trade-off with my university studies.

Currently I am trying to do a genki chapter each day and put genki vocabular in anki. Do you have tips about how to remember japanese vocabulary (I just know how to not forget my kanjis )?

jokoto Wrote:I need JLPT 2 for my resume. JLPT 3 is not worth that much and JLPT 1 is in direct competition with my studies which are much more important than JLPT. So I'll go with JLPT 2. That said, I do like learning japanese very much, I just have to do a trade-off with my university studies.

Currently I am trying to do a genki chapter each day and put genki vocabular in anki. Do you have tips about how to remember japanese vocabulary (I just know how to not forget my kanjis )?

But if you need JLPT2 on your resume, I guess you're applying for work in Japan (since JLPT is mainly used by Japanese companies, other companies usually rely on university grades etc). If you plan to work in Japan, you will need to become fluent eventually anyway.

Well, it's your studies and if you feel JLPT2 is enough and you are busy with other commitments, that's your choice to make of course.

As for remembering words, I personally just put them in the SRS. I use no mnemonic what so ever, it's pure rote memorization. The reason why it's easy is because you have a context, you have kanji etc. I know it might be hard for you right now since you don't have much exposure to Japanese yet but it will get easier as you learn more words and hear more Japanese. You get a feeling for how Japanese should sound, making it really easy to know whether a word is pronounced one way or the other.

Tobberoth Wrote:If you know you want to become fluent, why not learn 2000 kanji right away?

I was under the impression that he was done RTK.

Jarvik7 Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:If you know you want to become fluent, why not learn 2000 kanji right away?

I was under the impression that he was done RTK.

Nah, he finished RtK Lite. If your ultimate goal (which his seems to be) is JLPT2, that's all you need. My whole point is that at least 95% of the people who are going to take JLPT2 will be aiming for fluency anyway, so why not go all the way?

Actually I learned RTK LITE which is a subset of 1.000 JLPT 2 kanjis including their primitives. I then added around 100 kanjis used in Genki Textbooks. Since I have heavy review sessions every day I am happy with my decision to not learn all kanjis at once.

I'll go with putting all vocabulary in SRS. Would it harm if I let me show kana/kanji first and then have to guess english vocab? Or should I do it the other way round?

If I ever would be in japan, I assure you that before my flight goes off, I'll learn rest of JLPT 1 kanjis, promise

jokoto Wrote:Actually I learned RTK LITE which is a subset of 1.000 JLPT 2 kanjis including their primitives. I then added around 100 kanjis used in Genki Textbooks. Since I have heavy review sessions every day I am happy with my decision to not learn all kanjis at once.

I'll go with putting all vocabulary in SRS. Would it harm if I let me show kana/kanji first and then have to guess english vocab? Or should I do it the other way round?

If I ever would be in japan, I assure you that before my flight goes off, I'll learn rest of JLPT 1 kanjis, promise

You should never do it the other way around. Seeing an English word and trying to remember the Japanese one will just mess you up, it couples the Japanese too hard to your English. In the long run, it might increase the risk that you translate stuff from English in your head before saying it (instead of thinking it in Japanese and saying it).

In general, going from Japanese to understanding (not English. English might be what you need at first though.) is the way to go.

tokyostyle Wrote:

jokoto Wrote:I need JLPT 2 for my resume.

Says who? JLPT 2 on your resume will get you nothing except an HR rep calling to set up an interview in Japanese. When you fail on the phone there won't be a second call.

It helps you get that call in the first place. Like most certifications, it's useless for anything other than getting your foot in the door.

Khatz's post totally misses the point. You could have your cover letter, resume, essay, etc professionally translated (which is very common). If you have your name kanjified it says nothing about your Japanese ability, just that you are a dork (unless you are of Asian heritage and actually HAVE name kanji). As for the phone & in person interviews, you only get those after you pass initial stages of screening. Japan loves certifications, so every one you have on your resume (even if they are meaningless indicators) gives you a bigger chance of getting that call.

meaningless indicator of ability != useless

Jarvik7 Wrote:

tokyostyle Wrote:

jokoto Wrote:I need JLPT 2 for my resume.

Says who? JLPT 2 on your resume will get you nothing except an HR rep calling to set up an interview in Japanese. When you fail on the phone there won't be a second call.

It helps you get that call in the first place. Like most certifications, it's useless for anything other than getting your foot in the door.

Khatz's post totally misses the point. You could have your cover letter, resume, essay, etc professionally translated (which is very common). If you have your name kanjified it says nothing about your Japanese ability, just that you are a dork (unless you are of Asian heritage and actually HAVE name kanji). As for the phone & in person interviews, you only get those after you pass initial stages of screening. Japan loves certifications, so every one you have on your resume (even if they are meaningless indicators) gives you a bigger chance of getting that call.

I think tokyostyle was refering to jokotos claims that he isn't aiming for fluency. The point being that even if you have JLPT2, if you don't have the fluency to back it up you won't get the job.

I did complete all my kanjis I need and now am going through Genki. It's time to review learned vocabulary with anki:

QUESTION: kanji
ANSWER: kana, english translation, list of heisig keywords of included kanjis, genki chapter

QUESTION: kana ( for all vocabulary where kanjis are not provided )
ANSWER: english translation, genki chapter

What do you think about that? This approach is focusing on understanding japanese.

jokoto Wrote:I did complete all my kanjis I need and now am going through Genki. It's time to review learned vocabulary with anki:

QUESTION: kanji
ANSWER: kana, english translation, list of heisig keywords of included kanjis, genki chapter

QUESTION: kana ( for all vocabulary where kanjis are not provided )
ANSWER: english translation, genki chapter

What do you think about that? This approach is focusing on understanding japanese.

I don't think you need to include genki chapter, why would you want to learn that? You're learning Japanese, not how Genki is laid out You're focusing a bit much on Genki I'd say, IMO it isn't even a particularly good textbook (finishing it won't take you to JLPT2 level, so you will need to use other material later anyway).

Other than that, I'd say you've got the right idea. As soon as you feel you can, stop adding English on the answer side. I don't think it's detrimental, but it's good to rely as little as possible on English so when you're done with Genki 1 or so, maybe you should start looking in various japanese dictionaries like sanseido.net, see if you understand enough to use those definitions instead of english translations.