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I came accross the japanese word for "cynicism" : 皮肉 pronounced ひにく and I thought the kanji in the compound were strange, and then just by chance I found this website :

http://gogen-allguide.com/

It's very nice, it has a definition but also an explanation of the etymology of the compound words! For example here's 皮肉, the "pelt meat".

Useful site! I came across this a while ago from a chance link whilst trying to find the etymology of 馬鹿 (ばか) - fool/idiot. However, and I suppose it's hardly for me to say, but knowing quite a bit about English etymology, I know there is a fair amount of "folk etymology" going around which is usually fanciful and nearly always false.

I have to say I found some of the etymologies given for words I'd taken as あてじ (Chinese characters assigned to native or loan words for their phonic value only) to seem rather forced. However it seems that the choice of あてじ was often fanciful, or at least some attempt was made to find characters suitable in meaning as well as sound, even if the relationship was far-fetched.

The phonic similarity between [kana]hiniku[/kana] and cynic makes me highly suspicious that this is an English loan word written with あてじ with an elaborate pseudo-etymology back-formed upon it.

I think [kana]baka[/kana] is the same, except that the word was a loan, I think, from Sanskrit (via Buddhism). The back-formed etymology in this case is some tale about a Chinese emperor being given a horse as a gift, but it was in fact a deer. The emperor's subjects all knew it was a deer but had to pretend (Emperor's New Clothes style) that it was a beautiful horse. I guess the emperor is the fool here!

Still, a VERY useful site which gives you a lot more information about Japanese words than most online resources, and it's cracked a few problems I've had with obscure usages.

That's awesome. I finally know where 矛盾 comes from.

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It's interesting also (and somewhat amusing) that the "recent searches" on the left often contain loan words like [kana]KOSUMOSU[/kana] or yesterday there was [kana]BE-KON[/kana].

ファブリス Wrote:It's interesting also (and somewhat amusing) that the "recent searches" on the left often contain loan words like [kana]KOSUMOSU[/kana] or yesterday there was [kana]BE-KON[/kana].

Yes, that's kind of hilarious when it's obvious to us that they are just English words written in katakana. Perhaps that's not so obvious when you are Japanese, but I'm kind of surprised.

It shows how things have changed, though. Now loan words are simply written in katakana, whereas in the past elaborate attempts to render them in kanji ([kana]ateji[/kana]) were made. I suppose this makes it easier for us, but in a way it's a shame.

I suppose you can have fun by making your own [kana]ateji[/kana] (and try and come up with a pseudo etymology to go with it). To take one of the katakana examples above, how about 米墾 ?

Pangolin Wrote:

ファブリス Wrote:It's interesting also (and somewhat amusing) that the "recent searches" on the left often contain loan words like [kana]KOSUMOSU[/kana] or yesterday there was [kana]BE-KON[/kana].

Yes, that's kind of hilarious when it's obvious to us that they are just English words written in katakana. Perhaps that's not so obvious when you are Japanese, but I'm kind of surprised.

It's not that rare for the real Japanese words to be written in kana too, e.g. Google has
957,000 for りんごを (を to eliminate Chinese results)
859,000 for リンゴを
256,000 for 林檎を
so it may not be quite that surprising.

laxxy Wrote:It's not that rare for the real Japanese words to be written in kana too, e.g. Google has
957,000 for りんごを (を to eliminate Chinese results)
859,000 for リンゴを
256,000 for 林檎を
so it may not be quite that surprising.

I only meant that I was surprised that people would look up English loan words (albeit in katakana) in a Japanese online etymological dictionary. But on second thought, perhaps it makes perfect sense, why not if it works?

The use of katakana for Japanese words is a somewhat different phenomenon. I notice that the names of animals, beyond the very common ones (and these are getting fewer), are now rendered in katakana, even when there are perfectly well known kanji. I've heard complaints about such trends from older-generation Japanese, but they seems irreversible. In fact I think you are considered old-fashioned to use kanji for even something like "crow" (烏) when カラス has become the norm. It's probably the same with plants and perhaps the common use of リンゴ stems from that.

Ironic that we are putting such efforts into remembering kanji while Japanese seem to be busy forgetting them.

Pangolin Wrote:

laxxy Wrote:It's not that rare for the real Japanese words to be written in kana too, e.g. Google has
957,000 for りんごを (を to eliminate Chinese results)
859,000 for リンゴを
256,000 for 林檎を
so it may not be quite that surprising.

I only meant that I was surprised that people would look up English loan words (albeit in katakana) in a Japanese online etymological dictionary. But on second thought, perhaps it makes perfect sense, why not if it works?

That, and it might not be that obvious that the word is a loanword, as opposed to a Japanese word written in katakana. (although the ー　in ベーコン could serve as an indicator in this example, I guess...)

One other interesting thing I noticed a few times in comics is that they sometimes use kanji to clarify the meanings (i.e. a loanword, presumably the one pronounced, is written as furigana, alongside kanji for the Japanese equivalent).

But...but...

the site details the etymology for ベーコン... and コスモス so maybe it wasn't Japanese people confusing them for Japanese words, but just people who wanted to know where the words came from. It would be just like us looking up the origin of "psychology." And I don't think that it is a list of recent searches but actually a list of weekly most accessed entries anyway.

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JimmySeal Wrote:And I don't think that it is a list of recent searches but actually a list of weekly most accessed entries anyway.

Thanks for the clarification.
日本語、下手でごめんなさい。

No sweat. Thanks for posting the link, and everything else you've done.

I've been using the Sanseido online dictionary for months, but I had never noticed this link: ことば百科.

I often wondered what the etymology for 大丈夫 was, and here it is:

Quote:危なげないようす、しっかりしているようす、確かなさま、まちがいないことの形容などいろいろな意味合いで用いられる。本来の意味は「立派な男子」のこと。「丈」は長さの単位で、現在は十尺（約三メートル）に相当するが、中国の周の時代は八尺で、一尺は約二二・五センチメートルであったために、一丈は約一・八メートル。そして当時は一丈が普通の男子の身長とされていた。そこで普通の男子を「丈夫」といい、とくに立派な男子を「大丈夫」といった。また、「丈」には強くしっかりしている、という意味もあり、そういう男が「丈夫」でもあった。

Pangolin Wrote:I only meant that I was surprised that people would look up English loan words (albeit in katakana) in a Japanese online etymological dictionary.

Well, it *could* be that someone that speaks, say, Russian doesn't know the English word for fried strips of pig meat, and was looking up ベーコン to see why Japanese people decided to use that particular kana word for 'bacon'. Just like an English speaker might look up 'arubaito' in the Japanese etymological dictionary and learn that it is from a German word, originally.

Not everyone studying Japanese speaks English as their first language. (^_^)

-ang