Currently I am learning JLPT 2 kanjis with RTK Lite. RTK Lite is a subset of around 1.000 Kanjis listed in the JLPT 2 list and any Kanji that would be a primitive that's not on the JLPT2 list. Now I am asking myself it it pays out just for JLPT 2 test to have all RTK Kanjis for building up JLPT 2 vocabulary.

- Is JLPT 2 vocabulary focussed to mostly consist of JLPT 2 kanjis? I guess not.
- Is it helpful to extra learn no-JLPT 2 kanjis for building up JLPT 2 vocabulary? It could be a great help to learn a new word with kanji in mind instead of just learning new word in hiragana, right? But learning extra 1.000 kanjis I do not need for this text also takes much effort.

Thanks for your help.

Well, I can't say anything for RTK Lite, but having about 200 Kanji left in RTK, I can only get about 80% correct on many JLPT 2 Kanji tests.

The problem is, even after you finish RTK, you need to spend time learning combinations 「熟語」which I plan to do with Kanji In Context once I am done with RTK. You need to learn 熟語 in order to understand most JLPT 2 vocabulary. However, having studied the Kanji in RTK helps me study 熟語 much more efficiently.

The way I look at it, my goal is to obtain fluency and I will optimize my use of time to that goal. Even if you plan to go to JLPT 1, taking the short-cut may be more painful in the long run.

As for learning Kanji rather than just the hiragana, maybe you haven't picked up enough Kanji to feel their usefulness yet. At some point, you will feel that reading a sentence full of Kanji will be easier and more comprehensible than a sentence full of hiragana. So in response to your question, I always try to learn the Kanji for vocabulary, if it exists - at least take a good look at it, if not memorize it.

The way I see it, RTK greatly reduces the amount of work required to learn Kanji, but a great deal of effort is still required - to me, finishing RTK would be like finishing elementary school - there is still a lot more studying ahead.

Like I've said in several other topics, RTK is not actually learning Japanese (though that statement differs greatly depending on how you define learning Japanese), but when your goal is to get really really good at Japanese, it's an amazing SHORTCUT. Doing RTK is spending 2-4 months to recognize all the kanji, without learning any form of usage... From someone who is in Japanese 101 etc, this just looks like a really dumb idea. The point is, that if you're going to learn Japanese to a really high level, 2-4 months is NOTHING. Recognizing all the kanji however, is vital.

Thus, wether or not one should do RTK, whether one should do RTK Lite instead, whether one should learn kanji not on the list for jukugo, whether one should learn to write kanji from memory... it all depends on your goal. Is you FINAL goal to simply pass JLPT2? Then screw RTK and learn the 1000 kanji. Is JLPT2 just a checkpoint on your road to fluency? Then do RTK, since it will benefit you so much, not only for JLPT2, but for all your future Japanese studies.

When I suggested the RTK Lite option, I was and still of the opinion that the 2042 kanji chosen are themselves arbitrary because alot of the Jouyou kanji are arbitrary. There are very useful kanji (names and common use) that are in RTK3 while some in RTK1 will not be seen outside of your reviews.

The idea with RTK Lite: One can spend 5 months doing RTK1 and 3 before Japanese studies, 3 months doing RTK1 before Japanese studies then slowly add on RTK3, or 1 month doing RTK lite before doing Japanese studies then slowly add the rest of RTK1 and 3 during the same time.

That said, do RTK Lite, then begin your studies to help with JLPT (I do recommend reading the AJATT article on JLPT though). Try to learn 30 more kanji every week at the minimum while you're doing your studies though.

In addition, take some previous JLPT2 exams. If you can't knock those out of the park, don't bother with the real exam. Don't settle with "pass by skin of my teeth and a lot of luck". Go for the "man what a waste of my extraordinary ability in written and spoken Japanese".

Please read http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=1770

Of course that learning the whole RTK would be better than learning RTK Lite, the problem is that it takes a lot of time. If studying the whole RTK takes you 2-4 months, as Tobberoth says, then go for it. But if it's kind of boring to review kanjis and you see that it will take more than 6 months, then it is not worth it to postpone the study of sentences. With RTK Lite you can read more than 90% of JLPT 2 vocabulary, so it is better to spend time studying JLPT 2 vocabulary (even if it is 5-10% with hiragana) than studying the rest of RTK.

Usis35's reference to his own suggestion seems very reasonable to me. Here's a rehash from that link:

1. RTK LITE (up to 1000 kanji) (equivalent JLPT 2)
2. Readings, grammar and vocab (equivalent JLPT4 and JLPT3)
3. RTK1 complete (up to 2000 kanji)
4. Readings, grammar and vocab (equivalent JLPT2)
5. RTK3 (up to 3000 kanji)
6. Readings, grammar and vocab (equivalent JLPT1)

I would say if you are going for JLPT3 or JLPT4, do 1-2, in that order. RTK LITE will let you blow away JLPT4 and JLPT3 if you have some basic grammar and vocab.

To clear JLPT2, without luck, 3. doesn't seem to be enough, but it's a good start.
I plan to add:

3A. Kanji in Context

concurrently with 4. After taking the JLPT2, I will finish up Kanji in Context along with 5 and 6. I plan to do RTK3 at a much slower pace...

Thank you very much for your replies. I am focussing on taking JLPT 2 test and am a beginner right now. My goal is not fluency and not speaking japanese. I understand that this sounds harsh but I have very limited time before applying therefore need an official document showing I can speak japanese. What about these steps?

1. RTK LITE (up to 1000 kanji) (equivalent JLPT 2). I already learned around 350 RTK LITE Kanjis.
2. GENKI Readings, grammar and vocab (equivalent JLPT4 and JLPT3). I am at lection 4 now.
3. Constantly repeat RTK LITE Kanjis. I experienced that repeating takes much time.
4. JLPT 2 BOOKS. Are there any books that only show up with JLPT 2 Kanjis? Readings, grammar and vocab (equivalent JLPT2)

In GENKI lections beginning from lection 3 vocabulary is presented in hiragana & RTK-Kanjis. So it would pay off to first learn all RTK Kanjis instead of only RTK LITE. If you have very limited time, would you think it would pay off to really learn all RTK instead only RTK LITE just for JLPT 2 test?

jokoto Wrote:Thank you very much for your replies. I am focussing on taking JLPT 2 test and am a beginner right now. My goal is not fluency and not speaking japanese. I understand that this sounds harsh but I have very limited time before applying to government job and therefore need an official document showing I can speak japanese. What about these steps?

1. RTK LITE (up to 1000 kanji) (equivalent JLPT 2)
2. GENKI Readings, grammar and vocab (equivalent JLPT4 and JLPT3)
4. INTERMEDIATE JAPANESE BOOK (Japan Times). Readings, grammar and vocab (equivalent JLPT2)

In GENKI lections beginning from lection 3 vocabulary is presented in hiragana & RTK-Kanjis. So it would pay off to first learn all RTK Kanjis instead of only RTK LITE. If you have very limited time, would you think it would pay off to really learn all RTK instead only RTK LITE just for JLPT 2 test?

To be perfectly brutaly honest with you: If your goals and motivation are that weak, I seriously doubt you'll be able to pass JLPT2. I do encourage you to try your best though, and you seem to have decided on what path you're going to do, so just put your best effort into it I do wonder what type of government job would care about you having JLPT2 though... JLPT2 can't be enough to work for the Japanese government, and I doubt any other government cares since JLPT is an internal test in Japan.

I think that in your situation, you need to learn a lot of grammar and vocab (written and listening) to pass JLPT 2, so you don't have time for RTK now. Just go for RTK Lite.
In case you finish all your JLPT 2 studies and feel comfortable, and you still have time left, then complete RTK and review the little amount of vocab that you know only in hiragana (5 to 10%). Good luck!

jokoto Wrote:I understand that this sounds harsh but I have very limited time before applying therefore need an official document showing I can speak japanese.

Are you planning to take the JLPT2 in mid-2009? If you are, I strongly suggest that you get your hands on an old JLPT2 exam, and try a test out ASAP, so you know where your weak points are. Doing RTK Lite is probably the right choice if you are going to go through 2 textbooks during this time.

If it's December 2009, doing RTK is the best choice.

May I ask why you need an official document showing that you can speak Japanese? If it's to get a job, JLPT2 may get you an interview, but you would still have to be able to communicate verbally or demonstrate some level of fluency.

Not to discourage you, but I have completed 4. INTERMEDIATE JAPANESE (Japan Times) - excellent book, by the way - and I'm almost done with RTK (about 150 to go), but I have only scored mid to high 70's on the vocab and listening sections. Grammar and reading comprehension is still in the low 60's. It's probably enough to pass (beat 60 for JLPT2), but it's by no means "knocking them out of the park" as Nukemarine puts it - more like a grounder to reach first... ...in other words, Tobberoth's words are harsh, but probably ぴったり.

YMMV - try a practice test and prove us wrong!

Thanks for your replies. If you want to work as an ambassador you'll have to show up with some papers about your language skills. As japanese is a harder language showing some interest is in some cases enough. JLPT 2 is on a "have some interest in this language but do not have any proficiency anyway" level, but it's a good test to start with. While considering that only goal is taking this test and not achieving any language skills, there's a job available where you are in japan all the time.

I'll go with learning RTK LITE and by same time go through GENKI books. Then I'll go with INTERMEDIATE JAPANESE and after that I will take a look into old JLPT 2 exams and learn vocabulary from one of these lists available in internet. There are also some grammar books where jlpt 2 / jlpt 1 sections are marked.

jokoto Wrote:Thanks for your replies. If you want to work as an ambassador you'll have to show up with some papers about your language skills. As japanese is a harder language showing some interest is in some cases enough. JLPT 2 is on a "have some interest in this language but do not have any proficiency anyway" level, but it's a good test to start with. While considering that only goal is taking this test and not achieving any language skills, there's a job available where you are in japan all the time.

I'll go with learning RTK LITE and by same time go through GENKI books. Then I'll go with INTERMEDIATE JAPANESE and after that I will take a look into old JLPT 2 exams and learn vocabulary from one of these lists available in internet. There are also some grammar books where jlpt 2 / jlpt 1 sections are marked.

I think you're underestimating JLPT2, have you ever seen one of the tests? It's hardly on a "not have any proficiency anyway" level, I can assure you that. There are people who study Japanese in universities for over 2 years who still can not pass JLPT2. There are people who speak basic japanese fluently who still can't pass JLPT2. There are even Japanese people who can't pass JLPT1. JLPT2 is called intermediate level, but it's infact advanced level, being waaaay closer to JLPT1 in difficulty than JLPT3.

By Japanerse companies, JLPT2 is usually considered "Business level" whereas JLPT1 is considered "Fluent level". JLPT3 simply isn't considered. Even though JLPT2 is considered Business level, it is commonly not enough for "real" jobs, JLPT1 is. JLPT2 might give you an interview if you seem interesting on other points though.

What's your time line for the test? I too, think that you're probably underestimating the difficulty. While everyone is different, I had to take level 2 twice... and I'd been studying for nearly 5 years before I passed level 2 last December... and that was after 3 years of university Japanese (one semester of that was spent in Japan) plus almost 2 years of self-study... 9 months of which was spent in Japan. And you'll probably need some external sources besides just the Intermediate Japanese book... we used that as our 3rd year text at Uni, and I still needed to pick up grammar and vocabulary for other sources.

If you're crunched for time, I'd say skip RTK for the moment... while it greatly helps with your kanji recognition, it's not all that helpful in terms of the test, as you'll be tested heavily on how to read and use kanji compounds. You're better off focusing your time on studying vocabulary and grammar. But I wouldn't expect to go from beginner to JLPT2 level in a year or two.

shneen Wrote:But I wouldn't expect to go from beginner to JLPT2 level in a year or two.

Hm, I personally expect to go from slightly above beginner to native fluency in about 18 months...

alyks Wrote:

shneen Wrote:But I wouldn't expect to go from beginner to JLPT2 level in a year or two.

Hm, I personally expect to go from slightly above beginner to native fluency in about 18 months...

I guess if I asked my Japanese friends to converse with you in 18 months (how much time do you have left?) or if they looked at the essays you've hand-written, they could not tell that you were a foreigner? If I randomly pick a word out of Kanji in Context, you could reply with a sentence that a native could come up with. If I randomly took a sentence out of a grammar book, you can explain what it means in fluent Japanese? If you took JLPT1, you will score over 95% in all sections, missing any as a case of "dumb mistakes" and rather than not knowing the answer?

That's what I would expect of a native...

If you can do it in 18 months, hats off to you!

Tobberoth Wrote:I think you're underestimating JLPT2, have you ever seen one of the tests? It's hardly on a "not have any proficiency anyway" level, I can assure you that. There are people who study Japanese in universities for over 2 years who still can not pass JLPT2. There are people who speak basic japanese fluently who still can't pass JLPT2. There are even Japanese people who can't pass JLPT1. JLPT2 is called intermediate level, but it's infact advanced level, being waaaay closer to JLPT1 in difficulty than JLPT3.

That there are people who have studied Japanese for two years who can't pass the JLPT2 means nothing. I don't know what "basic Japanese" is or how one can speak it fluently. Finally, I request that you provide an example of a Japanese person who couldn't pass the JLPT1, since I find this quite difficult to believe.

kfmfe04 Wrote:

alyks Wrote:

shneen Wrote:But I wouldn't expect to go from beginner to JLPT2 level in a year or two.

Hm, I personally expect to go from slightly above beginner to native fluency in about 18 months...

I guess if I asked my Japanese friends to converse with you in 18 months (how much time do you have left?) or if they looked at the essays you've hand-written, they could not tell that you were a foreigner? If I randomly pick a word out of Kanji in Context, you could reply with a sentence that a native could come up with. If I randomly took a sentence out of a grammar book, you can explain what it means in fluent Japanese? If you took JLPT1, you will score over 95% in all sections, missing any as a case of "dumb mistakes" and rather than not knowing the answer?

That's what I would expect of a native...

If you can do it in 18 months, hats off to you!

If I can tell someone is from Texas or New York or Australia, it does not mean they're not fluent in English. So, having a foreign accent (that your friends can deduce) is not valid to say someone is not native level fluent.

I probably agree with Kanji in Context, though I'd prefer a comment about todays' headline over making a correct sentence using the word "ambiguous".

For the JLPT 1 criteria, umm, on average how well do native level people score on that test? I'm not talking academics here. I'm talking about the cab driver, the teacher, the store clerk, the salaryman, etc here. To say 95% could be akin to me demanding 500+ on the vocabulary portion of the SAT exam for proof of native level fluency.

For myself, if you can read today's newspaper and comment on most sections (hey, even I get turned off by the fashion section) that's good for reading fluency. If you can watch today's news, a talk show then follow up with a drama and comment about all three, well, that shows listening fluency.

Ehh, best not to get too deep in the "what qualifies as native level" since it's kind of stupid for non-natives (us) to determine what natives should consider the level for fluency to be.

Best of luck Alyks. Keep us up to date on your progress and methods if you can. Hope you fair better than me.

alyks Wrote:

shneen Wrote:But I wouldn't expect to go from beginner to JLPT2 level in a year or two.

Hm, I personally expect to go from slightly above beginner to native fluency in about 18 months...

Good luck with that.

It's not that it can't be done... I know those who have done it in 2 year intensive programs in Japan. But with self study, I'd say that that type of a leap would be more of the exception and not the rule.

Nukemarine Wrote:For the JLPT 1 criteria, umm, on average how well do native level people score on that test? I'm not talking academics here. I'm talking about the cab driver, the teacher, the store clerk, the salaryman, etc here. To say 95% could be akin to me demanding 500+ on the vocabulary portion of the SAT exam for proof of native level fluency.

For myself, if you can read today's newspaper and comment on most sections (hey, even I get turned off by the fashion section) that's good for reading fluency. If you can watch today's news, a talk show then follow up with a drama and comment about all three, well, that shows listening fluency.

With the possible exception of the grammar section (which I still believe a native speaker would have no problem with), anyone who can even read a newspaper in Japanese could probably get 95% on the JLPT1 with no problem. It's not at all like the verbal section of the SAT.

mystes Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:...There are people who speak basic japanese fluently who still can't pass JLPT2....

...I don't know what "basic Japanese" is or how one can speak it fluently...

Well, in Tokyo, there are actually a lot of ex-pats or Japanese nissei/sansei/yonsei who have lived in Japan for 10-20 years and can do fine on a day-to-day basis - or be fluent enough in speaking and listening to do okay.

However, many of them will not pass JLPT2 due to a lack of study or focus on reading.

But for anyone who grew up here, I don't think JLPT1 is an issue...

shneen Wrote:

alyks Wrote:

shneen Wrote:But I wouldn't expect to go from beginner to JLPT2 level in a year or two.

Hm, I personally expect to go from slightly above beginner to native fluency in about 18 months...

Good luck with that.

It's not that it can't be done... I know those who have done it in 2 year intensive programs in Japan. But with self study, I'd say that that type of a leap would be more of the exception and not the rule.

Dude, AJATT guy? Anybody? This isn't a new idea. Intensive programs, the hell? Formal instruction sucks. If I stuck to formal instruction I'd be getting nowhere fast. I take a Japanese class at college, and you know what? I'm constantly irritated because it takes time away from my normal Japanese self study

You want to know my methods everybody? Every day I'm reading or doing something in Japanese. Every single day is a day devoted to Japanese. I play through FF7 and look up all the words I don't understand in a combination of 広辞苑 and 大辞泉. I have huge stacks of manga that I read everyday and do the same thing with. I always have my iPod headphones on looping Japanese shows and doramas.

And don't give me this crap about being too busy, either. My mother has cancer and because of that it's my job to take care of the house, cook, clean, etc. My days are very busy with classes, also. Not to mention, um, having a life. But you know what? If I need to make dinner, I look up the recipe in Japanese and print it out. I bring my laptop downstairs and do some reps while I wait for water to boil or whatever. No matter what, I'm always thinking of some way to be Japanese.

I have 17 months to go before I will be fluent. After the first month, I can read manga and get the gist of what's going on with my monodics. If I made that much progress in a month, imagine where I'll be 17 months from now. OK? Get it? Attitude and motivation, dudes.

alyks Wrote:If I made that much progress in a month, imagine where I'll be 17 months from now. OK? Get it? Attitude and motivation, dudes.

AJATT really should be renamed "No Bullshit, None of The Time". Or excuses, if you prefer.

I personally like the bullshit one better.

Anyway, good luck Alyks. You can make it far dude.

alyks Wrote:I have 17 months to go before I will be fluent. After the first month, I can read manga and get the gist of what's going on with my monodics. If I made that much progress in a month, imagine where I'll be 17 months from now. OK? Get it? Attitude and motivation, dudes.

Are you not counting kanji study as part of the time?

EDIT: Don't mean to nitpick, good luck with it.

alyks Wrote:

shneen Wrote:

alyks Wrote:Hm, I personally expect to go from slightly above beginner to native fluency in about 18 months...

Good luck with that.

It's not that it can't be done... I know those who have done it in 2 year intensive programs in Japan. But with self study, I'd say that that type of a leap would be more of the exception and not the rule.

Dude, AJATT guy? Anybody? This isn't a new idea. Intensive programs, the hell? Formal instruction sucks. If I stuck to formal instruction I'd be getting nowhere fast. I take a Japanese class at college, and you know what? I'm constantly irritated because it takes time away from my normal Japanese self study

Woah, easy there. I'm not knocking your study methods or your attitude towards studying or anything. If you can pull it off, more power to you. I'm not a fan of the AJATT method... but if it works for you then great, I didn't come here to argue about the pros and cons of AJATT. My point was that the OP sounds pushed for time, and that going through a few textbooks, especially JLPT focused ones, and doing half of RTK probably isn't going to give you the results you're looking for.

shneen Wrote:But with self study, I'd say that that type of a leap would be more of the exception and not the rule.

Just look around. This forum is full of people who can, or will be able to, remember every single kanji from the Joyo list after just a few months of study. We are exception already.