I love having rules that determine the positioning of primatives. On page 229 of RTK1, Heisig tells us that the *fingers* primative always appears on the left. There are others where he doesn't give a definative statement regarding positioning.

Sometimes I get confused with the writing order of reformation {528}. Using the a form of the story most people seem to use, I often write "*taskmaster* that drove the *snakes* away".

There are no characters that spring to mind where *taskmaster* doesn't appear on the right. So is it fair to say this is a positional rule? Taskmaster always on the right.

Yeah, "taskmaster" is always on the right.

Is this at all related to this thread: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=168 ?
Or just a coincidence that everyone is interested in these rules all of a sudden

I like to think of primitive positioning rules in terms of priorities. There are some primitives that always take the same position, but then there are others who prefer a certain position and will only take a different position if next to a primitive with a higher priority for that position (like in your example, "snake" is usually on the right, but since "taskmaster" is *always* on the right, "snake" must be on the left in "reformation" 改).

First we need to establish what exactly counts as a primitive, otherwise the rules can get complicated with exceptions. It would make sense to use Heisig's primitives throughout, including those primitives made up of multiple primitives (for example "banner" which is "compass" + "reclining" as a roof enclosure. Then the rules for "compass" are not relevant to the ones for "banner"); then there is no confusion. One thing that came to mind is the "flowers" over "water" to the left rule. If you think in terms of primitives, any story that has "flowers" and "water" will follow this rule, such as 落 and 薄 (and others, even outside of RTK). Now people might say there are the exceptions of 漢 and 漠, but in neither of those cases should "flowers" be part of the story (only "scarecrow" or "graveyard"). What do you think?

We also need to determine the scope of the rules (# of kanji involved). Making the rules for RTK1 might be sufficient, but there are potentially a number of exceptions outside the general-use kanji... If we extended the rules to include RTK3 kanji as well, that might be better. Of course, there's no point in making the rules too complicated with exceptions for rare kanji.

A lot of fact-checking would be needed, but it's definitely helpful to at least know the ones that always take the same position, like "fingers", "person", "head", "taskmaster", and some others. Maybe the exception-y rules aren't worth bothering with, but if there's 3+ cases of a certain writing, and those kanji give people trouble, having a rule for those might be a better idea than trying to force the position into 3+ different stories.

Shvegait Wrote:Yeah, "taskmaster" is always on the right.

Is this at all related to this thread: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=168 ?
Or just a coincidence that everyone is interested in these rules all of a sudden

Yeah, I knew I'd seen something about this on the site but thought a specific thread about rules was in order. Thanks for the detailed response. I, like you am interested in hard and fast rules. Rules with exceptions are of less interest to me, for the moment anyway. So thanks for confirming that taskmaster always comes on the right.

I agree that the scope of the rule that one defines should be made clear. As I only have RTK1, that is the scope that I am dealing with just now.

Totally agree that graveyard has nothing to do with flowers and water, but one thing that seems to mess up your rule regarding flowers and water is frame 1169, full 満

Whoops, missed that one... I still think it's easier to learn the positioning of "full" as an exception. Normally the flowers oversee the water, but this kanji is "full" with water, which overpowers the flowers... something like that.

Here are some others that you might like to know (apply to at least RTK1, might need some checking though!):
Primitives that always appear on the far right:
"taskmaster" 攵
"head" 頁
"yawn/lack" 欠
"scorpion" 也
"see" 見 (if there is something to put on its left)
"branch" 支
"wrap" 包

Primitives that always appear on the far left:
"fingers"
"person" (except in "captured" 囚 where it is "pent in")
"metal" 金
"pack of wild dogs"

And there are, of course, obvious ones like enclosures, but even these aren't always consistent. I wonder if there are any hard rules for top/bottom kanji, I mostly looked at left/right.

Anyone know of any more?

There are more exceptions to person primitive, like 'how many', where it appears within the fiesta, or check the RKT3 'lottery' kanji, or 'reprehend'.

Also, there are kanji where 'metal' comes below other stuff. Not many, and not in RTK1, but the 'always on the left' of metal is not as strong as the 'always on the left' of fingers. Check out by typing 'bore' or 'cauldron' to see what I mean.

Hmm, good points. It seems that the rules are most applicable to cases of ambiguity. What I mean is when you have a simple left/right or top/bottom kanji and aren't sure which goes on the left and which on the right. In "bore", it would be *quite* difficult to cram in "metal" on the left. It kind of does the same thing as "say" in "admonish" where it gets thrown to the bottom because of space considerations. But you're right, it's not good enough to be a rule on its own (outside of RTK1).

For "how many", that's another exception, but it seems difficult to confuse somehow. But "lottery" doesn't count because the primitive you'd use is "assembly line". Reprehend, though, yeah... I'm thinking it might make sense to use a different primitive meaning (generic meaning of person/different person) for person not on the left. It has a different look, after all.

Glad to see some discussion on this topic!

Shvegait > "head" always on the far right? That helps me out with "petition" (my story always makes me see a massive head in a meadow as opposed to a meadow with a head in it!), but then there is "tribute" where "head" comes at the bottom. That said, I see what you are saying, the strong position for "head" IS the far right.

Also I do like your "water"/"flowers" hypothesis. Just to clarify, you're saying, flowers takes the full top position over water unless flowers is part of another primative, "full" is the only exception we know so far.

astridtops > it's useful to know that any rules that one might make for RTK1 don't necessarily apply to kanji outside RTK1.

Another primative that winds me up is "flesh" 月 not particularly positioning, more the form (as in the first stroke, to flick or not to flick). I thought positioning might have something to do with it but not so sure. Don't have a list of examples right now but after I've done my new cards for today I'll have a look.

synewave Wrote:but then there is "tribute" where "head" comes at the bottom.

I think you mean "shells" comes at the bottom of "tribute". Actually, "head" is a rule Heisig himself gives. This is on page 87 of RTK1 4th edition. This is one there really are no exceptions to. The only time "head" doesn't get the full right (but it's still on the right) is in "topic", where it rests on the tail of "just so". I'd have to say that "fingers" and "head" are the strongest rules out of all of them.

Quote:Also I do like your "water"/"flowers" hypothesis. Just to clarify, you're saying, flowers takes the full top position over water unless flowers is part of another primative, "full" is the only exception we know so far.

Yeah, that's what I was saying.

Shvegait Wrote:

synewave Wrote:but then there is "tribute" where "head" comes at the bottom.

I think you mean "shells" comes at the bottom of "tribute". Actually, "head" is a rule Heisig himself gives. This is on page 87 of RTK1 4th edition. This is one there really are no exceptions to. The only time "head" doesn't get the full right (but it's still on the right) is in "topic", where it rests on the tail of "just so". I'd have to say that "fingers" and "head" are the strongest rules out of all of them.

I stand corrected. Perhaps I should edit my earlier post so I don't sound like a complete idiot! Don't have any excuses either, it's first thing in the morning here, when I'm at my sharpest! Doh.

Concerning 月 moon/flesh/part of the body when used as a primative element, it seems that from it's positioning you can determine the shape, i.e. whether the first stroke is straight or flicked.

If 月 takes up the full left or right side, it is flicked.

In the butcher primative 月 is always straight.

If 月 appears under another element it is straight BUT flicked if it is next to another element no bigger than itself, e.g. straight - "bridegroom"; "lazy" but flicked - "muscle"; "wisteria"

Then there are the exceptions where it takes the more flowing shape in "sort of thing"; "ambition", etc

Was having trouble remembering the order of 短 as I kept putting 'table' on the left. So had a look at edict and it appears that 矢 when it takes up the full length of a character will always appear on the left. The only exceptions seem to be when it is part of 知 that appears within another kanji, e.g. 蜘（くも）

Good catch. It feels strange putting the table on the right (I think 短 is the only kanji where a full length 豆 appears on the right side), but it feels even stranger if I try to put 矢 on the right.

Had another look at edict this morning. Everyone is aware that the 'pack of wild dogs' almost always comes on the left.

To be more precise, you could say that it always takes up the full far left position.

However sometimes appears under a primative element e.g. 荻 (frame 242) but this can only happen if the part below the top primative is a kanji in its own right, in this case, 狄 is.

Further it might not take the far left position in cases like 誑 but again this only happens if without the new far left radical, the character is a kanji in its own right. In the previous examle, 狂 (frame 260) can stand alone.

The only exception to these rules, as far as I can tell is 蕕（ユウ）

Edit: This 'rule' applies to all kanji on edict. Personally rules that only hold for RTK1 aren't that useful.

synewave Wrote:However sometimes appears under a primative element e.g. 荻 (frame 242) but this can only happen if the part below the top primative is a kanji in its own right, in this case, 狄 is.

Further it might not take the far left position in cases like 誑 but again this only happens if without the new far left radical, the character is a kanji in its own right. In the previous examle, 狂 (frame 260) can stand alone.

The only exception to these rules, as far as I can tell is 蕕（ユウ）

This point that the exception must contain a kanji in its own right is a useful insight, I think. In this case even in the true exception (which has the wonderful meaning of "foul smelling grass" - a kanji I'm sure to make use of) the left/right positioning is the usual one for the primitive.

I notice this with 手. The only time this does not take the full width of the kanji is in 襷
but the right side, of which it is part, is a kanji in its own right (and neither of these two I expect to see outside of EDICT). However the main rule about 手 is that there is only one kanji in EDICT in which it is not a the bottom: 看

Pangolin Wrote:the main rule about 手 is that there is only one kanji in EDICT in which it is not a the bottom: 看

Didn't know that...cheers.

And another...

竹 always takes up the full top position except on 3 ocassions (4 if you include 竹 itself)

噬 - bite
擶 - straighten an arrow
櫛 - comb (frame 2476)

If you remove the radical on the left from these kanji, they are valid kanji in their own right.

筮 - divining equipment
箭 - arrow (frame 2636)
節 - node (frame 1464)

Just got to 舟 boat and primative positioning is a piece of cake. According to edict 舟 never takes the far right position. It almost always gets the full left position unless it is bumped by finger or an enclosure.

When a primative appears at the bottom of a character with 舟, 舟 gets squashed into the top half of the character. The point being, the bottom primative will get the full width of the character.

Exceptions are 艦 and 艪 but in these cases, the right sides are kanji in their own right.

If we had a list of the primitives that make up each kanji (see http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?pid=2941#pid2941) that also included the position of the primitives, we could derive all of the positioning rules automatically. If information on which form of the primitive is used was also included then rules could be inferred covering that too. Even a list without position info would be a great help for manually working out positioning rules.

Shvegait Wrote:Primitives that always appear on the far right:
"taskmaster" 攵
"head" 頁
"yawn/lack" 欠
"scorpion" 也
"see" 見 (if there is something to put on its left)
"branch" 支
"wrap" 包

I kept having problems with peek but after checking Shevgait's suggestion re: see I've realised that 見 never appears on the left side of a kanji. It is always to the right or underneath something. Except in the case of 見 itself.

Good rule!

Birds have been pissing me off a bit, particularly 鶴、as I was mixing up the primatives' positions. But after having a look at Jim Breen, there appear to be only 2 cases (both non-RTK) where bird appears on the left.

So with almost 98% certaintly, bird on the left isn't correct.

Quote:According to edict 舟 never takes the far right position.

I think all this info is great, but I do have one question. What do you guys mean by "according to [b]edict[b/]? Do you mean according to the rules of the Japanese writing system or something?

Edict refers to this freely available dictionary, which you can access through the WWWJDIC website (among other options).

It's an excellent resource, just be a bit wary of the example sentences.