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Goodbye Sentences

chochajin Wrote:But won't you forget after a while in what kind of context you found the word (especially if it's a rare word you won't come across it anytime soon - even if you do a lot of reading)? In the end isn't that ALMOST the same as a mere isolated vocab list in the end?
Don't get me wrong. I'm not against it at all. I'm not a sentence fan nor a vocab fan, I just try to figure out what's good about them in order to plan my studying from here on.
I've only just started, but I think you have to be pretty well off in Japanese first. Even with a sentence, there's no possible way you're going to understand the word at any decent level, so the key really is having to really use Japanese for many hours per day, while having the card help you remember it just enough for the next time you see it in the wild.
Edited: 2010-02-12, 9:25 am
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One more tip for Rikaichan,
to read off-line texts

http://isoron.org/stuff/japanese/echo.html

Just paste the text in the box.
Thanks isoron.
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IceCream Wrote:One of the things i found lacking from the core6k vocab deck was the words that just sound right when you put them together. I think there's a ton more of these in the language than you realise.
I think they're called collocations, and its one of the biggest advantages of adding sentences imo. But you're plan seems to be a pretty good middle path.

What I don't understand is that, most (some?) of you seem to be adding a sentence, or the dictionary definition, on the answer side of the question. So you're still actually adding a sentence to the card, so why not just put that bit on the front?
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blackmacros Wrote:
IceCream Wrote:One of the things i found lacking from the core6k vocab deck was the words that just sound right when you put them together. I think there's a ton more of these in the language than you realise.
I think they're called collocations, and its one of the biggest advantages of adding sentences imo. But you're plan seems to be a pretty good middle path.

What I don't understand is that, most (some?) of you seem to be adding a sentence, or the dictionary definition, on the answer side of the question. So you're still actually adding a sentence to the card, so why not just put that bit on the front?
Two reasons: speed and recognition. Having the definition on the answer side allows for faster reviews, whereas having the dictionary definition on the answer side requires you to recognize, rather than produce, the meaning of the word. In addition, I think the idea of adding vocab cards is that it's more efficient to encounter collocations while immersed with native materials, rather than through sentences in Anki. One of mezbup's earlier posts links to an article that lends a great deal of support to this idea:

mezbup Wrote:http://www.robwaring.org/er/what_and_why..._vital.htm
However, it's important to note that virtually all of the RTK members using vocab cards do not advocate studying with vocab cards until an intermediate stage (after KO2001, Core2k, etc). Furthermore, most use vocab cards as well as sentence cards. It seems that the primary purpose of vocab cards is to free up time from reviews in order to allow more exposure to native materials.
Edited: 2010-02-13, 2:13 am
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In a way it's like saying hello to a lot more and a bigger variety of sentences in your day.
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Since vileru mentioned 'extensive reading', I'll mention 'condensed reading' again because I think it's cool, plus that site (http://www-writing.berkeley.edu/tesl-ej/ej32/a1.html) seems to be down so I want to paste the relevant sections before it disappears from Google's cache/results... I recommend skimming through the whole thing and reading 'students w/ access to corpora' as 'self-studiers who use digital materials/subs2srs/etc.':

Corpora and condensed language exposure

Language learners in countries where the target language is not widely spoken often lack opportunities for the rich language exposure that is essential for developing the ability to recognise patterns. Extensive reading (Nation, 1997; Susser & Robb, 1990) is believed to facilitate language learning, because it exposes learners to real language use in context, and in amounts far larger than the short texts and dialogues usually preferred for the presentation of new language items. Extensive reading is also regarded as an effective way to help language learners develop intuitions as native speakers do (Krashen, 2004). The pattern-recognition example in the previous section gives an indication of how focused language exposure can be used actively, in order to formulate intuitions about language use.

Representative corpora can offer condensed exposure to language patterns. It is not argued here that corpora should be the sole vehicle for the development of reading skills and strategies, [12] nor is it argued that corpus use can replace out-of-class reading. Rather, what is being suggested is an approach that shares characteristics of both intensive and extensive reading--what might be called condensed reading. The reading of corpus samples is intensive in the sense that learners focus on the behaviour of specific language features; it is extensive in the sense that learners examine language features in a larger number of texts than in conventional text-based techniques. Condensed reading enables learners to engage with language use in context in order to formulate and check, though not necessarily consciously, hypotheses about language structure and use.

One printed page contains 500 words on average. [13] The British National Corpus contains 90 million written words, or the equivalent of approximately 180,000 pages. A six-year language teaching programme of five one-hour lessons per week amounts to a total of about 1,000 lessons. To gain exposure through reading to the amount of language evidence contained in a 90 million word corpus, a learner would need to examine about 180 pages per lesson (in the case of classroom or intensive reading), or read about 80 pages every day of the year for six years (in the case of out-of-class or extensive reading), the equivalent of two to three books per week.

Through corpora, learners will experience types of texts that they may not choose to read out of class, or that teachers and materials writers may not deem appropriate. It seems clear, then, that learners may benefit from using corpora in addition to pedagogical materials and authentic texts. [14] The considerations listed here also highlight the limitations of pedagogies that avoid the use of materials and a pre-planned focus on language, such as the ELT translation of Dogme (Thornbury, 2000). These approaches tend to favour class discussions loosely structured around topics, with the teacher and learners acting as the main, or even sole, sources of language exposure. In doing so, they offer limited exposure to language, which is usually further restricted to the teacher's language variety and preferred usage. [-10-]

Bonus:

A corpus in the mind?

Intuition, or 'a feel for the language,' is what learners aim to develop. Native speakers develop that 'feel' partly through exposure to language in use and the recognition of patterns. Through this exposure, native speakers build the mental equivalent of a corpus (Bod, 1998). Intuitions can be seen as the results of the informal analysis of this mental corpus. It follows then, that by working on representative examples from language corpora, learners will be helped to recognise recurring patterns of structure and meaning. As Stern states, language learners need to be helped "to see a particular feature ... not merely as an isolated item but as part of an evolving system of interrelationships which should become increasingly differentiated as it grows" (1992, p. 145). The wealth of instances of use of a specific item that corpora provide can offer the amount of evidence required for learners to refine their perception of it.
Edited: 2010-02-13, 3:52 am
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I want to start using rikaichan's S command but it doesn't work returning some kind file path related error. I'm using osX. Have any mac users got this working? I can't find any solution online. ちょっと困ってます
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You have to set up where it saves to in the options.
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yeah I've done that. It still returns an error [NS_ERROR_FILE_UNRECOGNISED_PATH]. Really not sure what the problem is though. I mean I am giving the file path. it looks something like this: Users/nadiatims/Documents/rikaivocab.txt
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nadiatims Wrote:yeah I've done that. It still returns an error [NS_ERROR_FILE_UNRECOGNISED_PATH]. Really not sure what the problem is though. I mean I am giving the file path. it looks something like this: Users/nadiatims/Documents/rikaivocab.txt
You are giving a relative path where you want to be giving an absolute path. In other words the program doesn't know that Users is in the root, so it is probably looking in ~ (home) and not finding the file. Put a / at the front of that path and it should work (assuming the user name is correct).
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thanks jarvikSmile. Got it working now. The odd thing is it still displays an error message when I use it, even though it is now saving to the file. It seems really oldschool to have to type a file path. Rikaichan really ought to let you browze for a file location from within the settings.
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Would it be able to set it up in a way that things can be copied from rikaichan directly to Anki instead of a .txt-file?

howtwosavealif3 Wrote:for me no because i put the context i found it in in the answer field.
i put the context ifound it in plus the definition.
So in the end you'll have an example sentence in your deck again, just not on the question field? Doesn't that slow you down as well?

IceCream Wrote:One of the things i found lacking from the core6k vocab deck was the words that just sound right when you put them together. I think there's a ton more of these in the language than you realise. So, when i start my new vocab deck, most of the cards are going to look like this: x を y、 x に z etcetc. How do you know what's an idiom until you've already seen it around?
That sounds more like it - although that won't work for all types and sorts of words, right?!
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@chochajin: That would require an Anki plugin to monitor the clipboard and automatically create a new card. I don't see a problem with saving to a file and then finally importing into Anki at the end of the day.
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How many of you using vocab decks are in Japan and speaking everyday? I am curious because I think in terms of improving reading, etc. I understand the benefit of the vocab deck being that you can spend more time reading rather than reviewing sentences in Anki.

However, there have been countless times during my everyday Japanese conversations that I reproduce sentences that are in my Anki. I guess my question is do you think the vocab deck limits your ability to use the words in real life? I can see where a vocab deck would produce roughly the same result in terms of recognizing the word if you see it again in print but what about speaking?!
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@ zakstern
interesting question. I think you'll find this to be less and less the case as your level improves. Specifically as you move beyond speaking using remembered phrases while substituting vocabulary and approach semi-fluency.

Understanding grammar is a process of intepertation. After you've interpeted a sentence card once and understood it, there is too much risk of just remembering the meaning the next time the card pops up rather than understanding it by processing the language. In doing this you're essentially learning to speak by learning every sentence in the language. This is futile, because there is no learnable finite set of sentences that will prepare you for everything you'll ever read/hear or need to say/write. It's the process of reading/hearing/using new unknown sentences that cements the grammar of the language. SRS is great for learning facts. I think it's much better to take a bottom up approach and learn the most finite set of facts first, that's why it's most effective to learn the writing system and pronunciation first. Vocabulary is a finite set of data (albeit a very large one). If you want to drill grammar, you're probably better off making very specific cards testing certain grammar points in isolation. eg:

front: (た/だ)verb ending

back: past tense
猫が死んだ
the cat died.

Although any decent beginner level textbook should have enough recursion built in to make this unnecessary.
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nadiatims Wrote:Vocabulary is a finite set of data (albeit a very large one).
Technically, I don't think it is. Apparently Hatoyama made up a word only the other day :-)
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Jarvik7 Wrote:C command sucks, use S command and the N command. That is how I add 200+ words per day Tongue
This is amazing. I've been doing it for the past couple days, and it's really revitalized my little slow down of the past couple weeks. Of course per card I'm getting a lot less info than adding full sentences, using a Japanese dictionary, etc which I can all do pretty easily. However it's just so much work typing it all up. It makes adding vocabulary from online news ridiculously easy, and also when I'm reading things not through firefox, I type up the words to view in firefox. Then BAM S > N > S > N and so on.

Reading 250-500 repeated sentences per day in my SRS is really nothing compared to having that extra time reading more than double that. I think the best part is simply the SRS review overhead is much less, and psychologically that's really gives me more energy. As silly as that sounds.
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The benefit of sentences, at least in my eyes, is the added context, which allows you to absorb stuff like grammar, collocations, grammar etc while also learning vocab.

After reading the thread I've decided to try out just vocab cards, since I feel like I'm at the point where I no longer need to rely on Anki+sentences for the above benefits; my immersion environment is providing that for me now that I can understand most of it.

I've already added a few cards, with monolingual definitions on the back but it hasn't been enough time to see how well it suits me.

Thanks for the tip mezbup Wink
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I've only been doing it for a week or so, but I'm completely sold. I've been playing with J-E and J-J dictionary definitions and like the Japanese much better, but it takes a lot more time to add it into anki compared to s > s > s > import at the end of the day.

I recall reading something about a J-J rikaichan-like addon (or was it a rikaichan dictionary?), does anybody have any success with it?
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I'd like to add to this discussion that I don't really think you need a context with a lot of words such as concrete nouns for every day objects.

Do you need a context with pig, dog, cat, window, spoon, T-shirt, bed, computer, windscreen, keyboard, cup, bra, boobies, arm pit, bottle cap, stop light, and back flip? The list goes no. These words really don't need a context and whatever nuances they may have you can pick up through extensive reading. I think extensive reading, learning sentences, and learning single words all have their place and their priority definitely does change depending on your level. And the most important thing is that they are all helping you learn your L2.

Extensive reading = Necessary to read at a good reading level, learning nuances and words in context, finding new words and sentences to learn, learn quite a lot of new words incidentally

Single words = Not necessary, boosts your understanding, boosts your vocabulary a lot faster than sentences, enables you to recognize more words when reading so you can read to a higher level sooner, you don't get context which is often important but not always

Sentences = Ultimate win, boosts vocabulary slower than single words but words are learned deeper with more context, learn several meanings of one word, learn grammar naturally, sound native, A more sure way to anchor a particular pattern in your brain than extensive reading because you don't know when that pattern will come up and it might fade before you read it again.
Edited: 2010-04-17, 5:13 am
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The S shortcut in Rikaichan has been extremely helpful for me with mining websites and books that I load into firefox but I am trying to move away from English definitions. Does anyone know of a monolingual dictionary for Rikaichan or is there a way to convert スーパー大辞林 for use with it?

EDIT: (BROKEN LINK) http://forum.koohii.com/viewtopic.php?pid=104351

This indicates that people may have found a way to convert EPWING dictionaries for Rikaichan but there is no conclusion. Anyone?
Edited: 2010-07-20, 5:27 am
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Herbo Wrote:This indicates that people may have found a way to convert EPWING dictionaries for Rikaichan but there is no conclusion. Anyone?
Someone may have, but I haven't heard of anyone who has. Just like Blahah says, if you can get an EPWING dictionary into some sort of text format, converting it to EDICT format -> getting it to work with Rikaichan, shouldn't be too hard.

I don't know how to convert EPWING format though
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DDWIN http://homepage2.nifty.com/ddwin/ might be a good starting point, although I haven't tried it myself.

The first part of the instructions given in http://www.users.on.net/~luffy/diamonds/...e/pdic.php might also be helpful.
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nest0r Wrote:Since vileru mentioned 'extensive reading', I'll mention 'condensed reading' again because I think it's cool, plus that site (http://www-writing.berkeley.edu/tesl-ej/ej32/a1.html) seems to be down so I want to paste the relevant sections before it disappears from Google's cache/results... I recommend skimming through the whole thing and reading 'students w/ access to corpora' as 'self-studiers who use digital materials/subs2srs/etc.':

Corpora and condensed language exposure

Language learners in countries ...

Bonus:

A corpus in the mind?

Intuition, or 'a feel for the language,' is what learners aim to develop. Native speakers develop that 'feel' partly through exposure to language in use and the recognition of patterns. Through this exposure, native speakers build the mental equivalent of a corpus (Bod, 1998). Intuitions can be seen as the results of the informal analysis of this mental corpus. It follows then, that by working on representative examples from language corpora, learners will be helped to recognise recurring patterns of structure and meaning. As Stern states, language learners need to be helped "to see a particular feature ... not merely as an isolated item but as part of an evolving system of interrelationships which should become increasingly differentiated as it grows" (1992, p. 145). The wealth of instances of use of a specific item that corpora provide can offer the amount of evidence required for learners to refine their perception of it.
It seems like that article is simultaneously against vocab, and also potentially contradicting itself. The last bolded bit there says that you do not learn in isolated items (single words), but the first two bolded bits say that the corpus (see: mentally built feeling of the meaning of words) is created through recognition of patterns.. which comes from exposure.. which comes from reading native material... which comes from being able to actually read what you are presented.

For people who can't guess the reading of Kanji compounds in the wild [and are forced to go to a dictionary or look it up later], though, you lose a vital part of that system that is supposed to build your corpus: the smoothness of seeing a word and being able to actually pronounce it where you see it.. in the context of the sentence. That KILLS any "feeling" of the word in the context you saw it.. whereas, knowing the reading of the word and a general idea of its meaning allows you to continue reading AND helps mold (because language is a living, breathing, changing thing, here.. stay with me here folks..) your understanding of what the word means.

The whole point of burning through vocabulary quickly is to get to the good stuff, the gushy stuff, the native material stuff, you know? The whole point is to increase contact with Japanese itself, and not have to rip yourself out of what you are reading (read: RIP yourself out of the context of what you are reading, because that's what happens when you have to lug out a dictionary) and have that mental break of whipping out that coulda-been-reading-material-but-am-instead-using-a-time-sucking-dictionary. The more time you spend reading native material, the more immersed you are, the more you can get a feel for the language and build your corpus. But if you are constantly looking up words, constantly grading yourself, constantly reviewing sentences, tweaking your reviewing resources.. the end goal gets forgotten in the flurry of 1s 2s and 3s and re-writes that have turned into leeches. I don't know about you guys, but when I get to a good point in my Japanese reading.. I am not going to be thinking "oh boy, I can't wait until I stick this in my deck" or "cant wait to whip out my dictionary for that word". It's going to be I can't wait until I read the next article without looking up a word or taking a break.. because then I know I will own the language, rather than my reviewing method owning me.

For now, I am doing both sentences and vocab, because they each have their own strengths that are stronger together than alone (vocab for helping me get to a continuous-reading, eventually-be-able-to-pick-up-from-context ability, sentences for getting a feel for the language). I guess what I am trying to say is.. Good bye looking for the perfect method to learning Japanese, hello working on my weaknesses until they are my strengths.

Current weaknesses: super small lexicon, kanji-reading ability (ability to guess kanji readings based off experience), listening ability, and writing ability.
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