I find that it's hard to actually learn words, even if I know their kanji. I guess some words are easy, like when there is only one Kanji, or the meanings remain close. For example, お祝い, 課長, and even sort of abstract ones like 自由, I can easily produce the keywords. Other words, though, like 伝統的 (transmit + govern = traditional?!), 遠慮 (far + prudence = restraint?!), and 絶対 (discontinue + vis-a-vis = absolutely?!) are really hard to remember because their keywords have absolutely no connection.

I guess I could make some sort pneumonic from the keywords, but that seems like a ridiculous recursive process. Right now I'm just doing rote memorization. How do you guys learn words?

Why not use mnemonics? I don't think it's recursive at all. Mnemonics are how many of the best memorizers (not a word, I know) in the world memorize all their facts and various other things.

Look at them real quick. Just by looking at your ___+___=___ examples, I can see that:

Discontinue + vis-a-vis = absolutely

They've discontinued making the merovingian's (from the matrix) favorite brand of (insert anything here). Vis-a-vis (as he would often say in the movie), it is absolutely impossible for him to have it unless he hacked it (like he does).

See? Not only that, but if you put them into anki and are exposed to them often enough, you will remember them. The keywords and mnemonics will fade out after a while, but why not take advantage of them now?

Don't try to figure out how the kanji relate to each other in a jukugo based on the Heisig keywords. The keywords are keywords, not definitions. You should get yourself a decent kanji dictionary (even KANJIDIC would be an improvement) if you want to delve into how jukugo are put together (which is interesting but not mandatory knowledge).

Mnemonics are a bad idea. Jukugo do fit together in a way that is logical (Looking at my 漢字検定 book there seem to be 11 possible ways in which the kanji could relate to each other, so don't expect them to act just like English morphemes.). Why make up crap involving the Matrix when you could just use the ACTUAL "story". Check out the 構成 functions in some of the DS kanji learning software.

-addendum-
Taking your 遠慮 jukugo for example, the relationship is of the meaning "to consider the distant (time)" (遠くを慮る in Japanese). In other words not just living for the moment, but thinking what the future will bring. If you didn't 遠慮 and just did whatever you wanted, there would be repercussions later on.

I rely on spontaneity and momentum to get the words in my head without relying too much on mnemonics (since I want them to fade pretty much immediately). Basically, anything that I can't figure out based on Japanese words I already know, or through rote memorization, I spend a few seconds coming up with any kind of random wordplay + story, based on whatever useful context is at hand (the sentence itself, for example) or comes to mind (a scene from a movie or previous story, for example). It's a kind of rapidfire word association... 伝統的 becomes, in the course of a few seconds, 'traditional dental method of transmitting messages overall' and maybe think of Real Genius (old Val Kilmer comedy where they plant a mic in someone's teeth or something, I forget) or a paranoid conspiracy theorist.

That whole process is something I try not to think about too hard for reasons such as outlined by Jarvik7, it's just a few seconds to build extra pegs in the mind, and I rely on what Supermemo calls planned redundancy as well as the successive layers of SRSing to make it stick (to make the word stick, not the spontaneous mnemonic, I seldom repeat one of those, though it's hard to say, since I forget them all). I've been learning around 35-70 words/day with this method, and frankly it's been a breeze. If you only do your cards one way, I could only recommend doing this with passive recognition cards, as I haven't found a need to test it yet with active recall (since I'm only doing single words as active recall).

Also, I find it less and less necessary to do this, the more Japanese words I know, since the audio and semantic associations are already there. I also tend to use Japanese words in the wordplay mnemonics as well, the ones I know well enough not to worry about 'interference'.

Random aside: I probably only would have spent a few months last year working on this method, but, among other things, I screwed up when I was trying to work some other aspects of my SRSing (incorporating all sensory modalities), but now that I worked that out, it's smooth sailing.

Edit: Forgot to mention, as yukamina points out, a lot of the aforementioned reinforcement stems from using frequency-based lists like iKnow/Kanji Odyssey.

Maybe it would be good to learn a few words for each kanji to get a feel for the real meaning. Then you'll be able to see the connections better because you'll have more to work with.
伝統　might be easier to understand when you see how 伝 is used in these words : 伝える to convey/transmit)　言い伝え(tradition)　伝説(legend/tradition)

i agree... and maybe you can help with our Kanji Odyssey project

I feel that the more you listen a word, the easier is to remember it. 伝説 and 絶対 are very easy, for instance.

I don't try to get bogged down with much of anything like mnemonics when it comes to memorizing vocab. You see some kanji enough and you start to get a feel for what they mean. And you see some of them enough that they start to become notorious.

I just sit back, relax, and let the SRS do its thing. If Iremember it, hey, that's great. If I don't, I add a sentence or two with the target vocab word in it so I see it a little more often, then flunk it when I don't remember it. Eventually I see it enough times where I'll remember it without having to remember that Col. Mustard did it in the Library with the Lead Pipe.

I also grade on speed, too. If I don't recall within a few seconds, that 3 becomes a 2, then a 1. I do it to fight the "tip of the tongue" effect. I hate that feeling.

MeisterLlama Wrote:I find that it's hard to actually learn words, even if I know their kanji. I guess some words are easy, like when there is only one Kanji, or the meanings remain close. For example, お祝い, 課長, and even sort of abstract ones like 自由, I can easily produce the keywords. Other words, though, like 伝統的 (transmit + govern = traditional?!), 遠慮 (far + prudence = restraint?!), and 絶対 (discontinue + vis-a-vis = absolutely?!) are really hard to remember because their keywords have absolutely no connection.

I guess I could make some sort pneumonic from the keywords, but that seems like a ridiculous recursive process. Right now I'm just doing rote memorization. How do you guys learn words?

Another things that helps is knowing multiple meanings for the words/kanji in question.

For example 遠慮 = restraint or reserved (distant+ prudence).

伝統的 goes a little futher.

伝= tradition, method, convey
統= overall, govern
的= -like, target

Tradition overall -like = traditional.

They make sense when you learn more/look at the individual parts deeper.

Also, like what been previously said, (for memory) hearing the words often and aiming for rapid recall will do you good.

kazelee Wrote:Another things that helps is knowing multiple meanings for the words/kanji in question.

For example 遠慮 = restraint or reserved (distant+ prudence). A reserved person is more "prudent" and/or keeps themselves at more of a "distance."

One problem with this is that 遠慮 isn't an adjective and can't be used like that. Think of it as meaning "hold back". You can't say that someone is a "hold back" person to mean that they are reserved. Again, why make up mnemonics (especially ones that make you diverge from what the word means) when there is already the correct 構成 in existence (see my previous post).

Jarvik7 Wrote:Don't try to figure out how the kanji relate to each other in a jukugo based on the Heisig keywords. The keywords are keywords, not definitions.

This is a good point. Many (perhaps even most) of the kanji have an array of nuanced meanings that don't fit nicely into a single keyword. Take 伝, for example. One of its meanings is transmit, but it can also mean to (walk) along, to follow, and, most importantly for 伝統的, legend or tradition.

As you can see, you wouldn't get all this from Heisig's single keyword of 'transmit.'

Take Jarvik7's advice and get a decent kanji dictionary that will show you what all these nuanced meanings are. I think you'll start to see the compound words making more sense if you do so.

Jarvik7 Wrote:Mnemonics are a bad idea. Jukugo do fit together in a way that is logical (Looking at my 漢字検定 book there seem to be 11 possible ways in which the kanji could relate to each other, so don't expect them to act just like English morphemes.).

I agree. Even though I started learning kanji and vocab the more traditional way, this was something that was somewhat of an epiphany for me when I started using the kanji kentei STEP books to study kanji and vocab.

One part of the kanji kentei (at higher levels) asks you to define how the two characters in a compound are working together to create the meaning of the word. Some examples would be: the two have like meanings, and reinforce one another (like 時期); the two have opposite meanings that combine (like 多少); one character negates the other (like 無限); one character adds its meaning to the other (like 料理); the characters are completely unrelated and chosen for their reading only (ateji, like 煙草); and so on.

With this in mind, all of your examples (絶対、遠慮、伝統的) make very logical sense, but only if you know all the varied meanings of each character and how they relate to one another.

Jarvik7 Wrote:

kazelee Wrote:Another things that helps is knowing multiple meanings for the words/kanji in question.

For example 遠慮 = restraint or reserved (distant+ prudence). A reserved person is more "prudent" and/or keeps themselves at more of a "distance."

One problem with this is that 遠慮 isn't an adjective and can't be used like that. Think of it as meaning "hold back". You can't say that someone is a "hold back" person to mean that they are reserved. Again, why make up mnemonics (especially ones that make you diverge from what the word means) when there is already the correct 構成 in existence (see my previous post).

I'm not trying to making up a mnemonic so much as give an example of how the characters relate to the meaning. So the usage of the example isn't really all that important. It can be reworked, and by trying to rework it over until you find something that makes sense helps solidify the meaning.

kazelee Wrote:

Jarvik7 Wrote:

kazelee Wrote:Another things that helps is knowing multiple meanings for the words/kanji in question.

For example 遠慮 = restraint or reserved (distant+ prudence). A reserved person is more "prudent" and/or keeps themselves at more of a "distance."

One problem with this is that 遠慮 isn't an adjective and can't be used like that. Think of it as meaning "hold back". You can't say that someone is a "hold back" person to mean that they are reserved. Again, why make up mnemonics (especially ones that make you diverge from what the word means) when there is already the correct 構成 in existence (see my previous post).

I'm not trying to making up a mnemonic so much as give an example of how the characters relate to the meaning. So the usage of the example isn't really all that important. It can be reworked, and by trying to rework it over until you find something that makes sense, it helps solidify the meaning.

but the characters don't relate in the way you wrote either...

Jarvik7 Wrote:but the characters don't relate in the way you wrote either...

I'm sure there is some book where their relations are perfectly outlined out there somewhere, but I just make examples based on what I have to go on.

I guess I already said everything I thought in the first comment, but I think mnemonics are fine as long as you're doing your best to allow them to fall away, and you're using them as superficial tools to get the word, as it's presented and used in the sentence, in your head. Naturally you won't need them as much once you're far along, and you'll probably be better off using more nuanced, authentic approaches at that point. Personally, I've got all sorts of geeky fantasies about kanji etymologies and stuff I intend to study.

kazelee Wrote:

Jarvik7 Wrote:but the characters don't relate in the way you wrote either...

I'm sure there is some book where their relations are perfectly outlined out there somewhere, but I just make examples based on what I have to go on.

Then don't claim that you aren't making up a mnemonic

I tried to find a link to share where you can look up 熟語の構成 but I came up empty handed. I guess whoever is interested will need to order up a kanjikentei book (or DS soft). They start drilling 構成 with 6級 (I think that works out to gr5 kanji, but I stopped paying attention to kanji grades long ago).

Jarvik7 Wrote:

kazelee Wrote:

Jarvik7 Wrote:but the characters don't relate in the way you wrote either...

I'm sure there is some book where their relations are perfectly outlined out there somewhere, but I just make examples based on what I have to go on.

Then don't claim that you aren't making up a mnemonic

I'm focusing on seeing how the kanji come together to make the meaning. It is possible to do this without specifically being told x+y=z.

I made up an example to illustrate how they "could" go together to form the meaning, not as as an aid to help remember. I'm simply illustrating that sometimes to get the meaning you gotta look at the meanings deeper.

That's like saying that 遠慮 is read as とおおもんぱ, just because you don't need to be told x+y=z. Things have meanings that are set and you can't just choose your own.

Jarvik7 Wrote:That's like saying that 遠慮 is read as とおおもんぱ, just because you don't need to be told x+y=z. Things have meanings that are set and you can't just choose your own.

I was going to respond to this sarcastically. But I have to ask... do you seriously believe that (when it comes to personal understanding especially)?

kazelee Wrote:

Jarvik7 Wrote:That's like saying that 遠慮 is read as とおおもんぱ, just because you don't need to be told x+y=z. Things have meanings that are set and you can't just choose your own.

I was going to respond to this sarcastically. But I have to ask... do you seriously believe that (when it comes to personal understanding especially)?

Making up you own stuff as an aid to understanding = mnemonics.

The Heisig keywords should not be used at all when attempting to learn the meaning of Japanese words. You need to start from scratch, look at how the word is used, look at various dictionary entries and come up with your own conclusion for what it means.

Jarvik7 Wrote:

kazelee Wrote:

Jarvik7 Wrote:That's like saying that 遠慮 is read as とおおもんぱ, just because you don't need to be told x+y=z. Things have meanings that are set and you can't just choose your own.

I was going to respond to this sarcastically. But I have to ask... do you seriously believe that (when it comes to personal understanding especially)?

Making up you own stuff as an aid to understanding = mnemonics.

I knew that's what you were gunning at. I thought mnemonics were aids to help memory if they are to help understanding as well, you are right. Not only are you right, but, by this description, the source you recommend for understanding the compounds is a form of mnemonic, correct?

You seem to have missed the part that said "making up your own stuff".

構成 is an aspect of 熟語 just as the reading and meaning are aspects. I suppose the meaning of a word would be easy to understand if you just arbitrarily defined it by yourself...

Jarvik7 Wrote:You seem to have missed the part that said "making up your own stuff".

Am I making things up? Or just reaching the same conclusions through a different method?

Also, you seemed to have avoided answering my previous question. Do you seriously believe what you said about x+y?

kazelee Wrote:

Jarvik7 Wrote:You seem to have missed the part that said "making up your own stuff".

Am I making things up? Or just reaching the same conclusions through a different method?

Also, you seemed to have avoided answering my previous question. Do you seriously believe what you said about x+y?

Yes, I do believe that you can't just make stuff up and then claim that it's correct. 構成 are just as rigidly set as the reading.