I'm not sure if this is the right section...


I know it isn't ideal to learn Chinese and Japanese at the same time, but since I'll be doing this in college, I need to come up with a plan for this. This is what I've thought so far:

First,finish RTH 1, then do RTK (any kanji that aren't in RTH). While I'm doing RTK I can begin working through the first few levels of the Mastering Chinese Characters course (see the Good smart.fm lists after RTH! thread in the RTH section), then once I'm done with RTK I can start on Tae Kim while I'm learning more more characters for Chinese (using RTH 2 if it's out - otherwise the list of characters learned in school in Taiwan or possibly a frequency list). Then I can work through K.O.2001 or Core 2000 for Japanese and the Chinese Media course for Chinese, and then most likely move on to native material for both. Let me lay that out more clearly:

1. C - finish RTH
2. J - RTK / C - Mastering Chinese Characters (basic vocab)
3. J - Tae Kim / C - RTH2 or whatever
4. J - K.O.2001 / C - Chinese Media


At some point or another this will all be on the side while I'm taking classes. I'm not sure if I'll be starting in the spring or next fall, but I'll be majoring in Chinese and minoring in Japanese. But it's a while before I get to that point so I'd like to be able to get as far as I can and test out of as many classes as possible once I'm there.

Sounds ambitious. Good luck

Are you familiar with AJATT? Khatzumoto suggests a ladder method, where you learn language A, and then you learn language B using language A materials only. That way it reinforces language A, and prevents confusion.

Since Mandarin seems to be a priority for you, why not learn that first to a level of 80% and then attempt to learn Japanese using Mandarin materials perhaps?

I'm very familiar with AJATT...probably rad every article there.

That (laddering) isn't really an option for me though, since like I said I'll be majoring in Chinese and minoring in Japanese. I'm going to have to do both at the same time.

There's a few reasons for this. I want to pursue a PhD in Chinese, and most grad programs require proficiency in Japanese too, if not for admission, then at least by the time you finish. Some programs (notably Harvard) strongly prefer you to be able to meet all language requirements before you even apply. In their case, it's 4 years of Chinese, 2 years of Classical Chinese, and 3 years of Japanese, and possibly one European language if your dissertation committee deems it necessary (generally French, sometimes German, but obviously this won't be decided until you've already been admitted and begun).

For reference, 4th year level is advanced and generally means you can read modern literature (Lu Xun), 3rd year means you can read newspapers and such, and hold conversation on a general level (basic fluency). Granted, most people will be using dictionaries extensively at that level (we are talking about university language courses here), but I don't want to have to rely on dictionaries all the time.

I would suggest doing RTK and submersion right now, then going nuts with Japanese. Try and get your Japanese to a level where you can ladder before you start studying Chinese. Once you start studying them both, keep your focus on Japanese only as much as possible to support laddering. I would then only do enough Chinese to satisfy your university and keep going with Japanese until it is pretty much self sustaining. Or you could do the opposite, which sounds like it might be better given that Chinese is your major.

I think studying 2 unrelated languages would be fairly feasible, but keeping the nuances of kanji and words of Chinese and Japanese separate sounds like it would be very hard without laddering.

I think you'll be fine. Just remember that your progress in one language will always be slower because you have to split your time. Every day you spend studying Japanese instead of Chinese is another day you could have progressed in Chinese instead. However, if your end goal is to learn both it doesn't seem to me that it would matter that much.

Myself for example, I want to learn Japanese, Chinese, and Spanish. However, I don't currently speak another language (unless you count sign?) so I'm focusing completely on Japanese until I can count it officially as my "second language". Then I'll daly in many at the same time to my own delight.

I assume you are doing RTH traditional. Definitely do that if you were planning on the opposite. Since a lot more of the characters carry over into Japanese.

I don't really see a question in your post, so I am assuming you just want us to critique your plan and/or offer suggestions. My main suggestion is to get into native media as quickly as possible. The sooner you can get your recreation time spent in your FL the faster it will go. If you study Japanese for 1 hour then read Harry Potter (in Chinese) to relax, you'll be a really efficient studier

I don't put too much credence in Khatz's ladder method. I know two people who speak multiple languages in their late 20's and studied them both in English. And I read two books by polyglots who both speak upwards of 16 languages and one studied them all in Hungarian, and the other studied loads at the same time. It's just a personal choice (and perhaps a more efficient allocation of resources, very computer sciencey way to think).

bflatnine Wrote:Some programs (notably Harvard) strongly prefer you to be able to meet all language requirements before you even apply.

I also know of some programs at Harvard that will not even consider an applicant who just graduated undergrad. So you might expect several years in the field getting experience and improving your languages if you plan on applying there.

thermal Wrote:I would suggest doing RTK and submersion right now, then going nuts with Japanese. Try and get your Japanese to a level where you can ladder before you start studying Chinese. Once you start studying them both, keep your focus on Japanese only as much as possible to support laddering. I would then only do enough Chinese to satisfy your university and keep going with Japanese until it is pretty much self sustaining. Or you could do the opposite, which sounds like it might be better given that Chinese is your major.

I think studying 2 unrelated languages would be fairly feasible, but keeping the nuances of kanji and words of Chinese and Japanese separate sounds like it would be very hard without laddering.

I should have mentioned this since this isn't in the RTH section like my other posts: I've already studied Chinese for a while. I'm kinda low-intermediate-ish in Chinese. My Japanese knowledge is next to zero (I can read kana and I know a couple words).

welldone101 Wrote:I assume you are doing RTH traditional. Definitely do that if you were planning on the opposite. Since a lot more of the characters carry over into Japanese.

Yes, I'm doing traditional, although I started out learning simplified (before RTH) so I'm about equally comfortable with both. I'm much better at writing traditional by now though.

Quote:I don't really see a question in your post, so I am assuming you just want us to critique your plan and/or offer suggestions.

Yeah pretty much. I should have said that specifically...this is what happens when you post on little sleep and don't proofread.

Quote:I also know of some programs at Harvard that will not even consider an applicant who just graduated undergrad. So you might expect several years in the field getting experience and improving your languages if you plan on applying there.

Yeah, they actually don't require any field experience for this program, but they do say that most people they accept already hold Master's degrees. This does give me some more time to learn the languages, but I'd much rather focus on the research without trying to learn languages on the side while I'm in grad school. Plus, Harvard offers Cantonese (after a certain amount of proficiency in Mandarin), and I'd love to be able to study that while I'm there.

My research interests (as of now of course...this may and probably will change) are in the area of historical linguistics, particularly character etymology and especially how the characters are used in other languages. Japanese is obviously good for that, as is written vernacular Cantonese (as opposed to written Standard Chinese pronounced in Cantonese).

Just so I'm not leaving out any other relevant information, I should also probably mention that this isn't my first degree. I have a Bachelor's in music (music didn't work out), and I've been working in retail management and other service-type jobs for several years but I'm making a career change to do something I actually love. Academia has always been where my heart has been, and I've been fascinated with languages since I was a little kid. I studied Spanish a while back, and although I can still understand most conversations I can't put a sentence together to save my life (this is what happens when you neglect your languages). I can understand French at a very basic level, and I've been studying Chinese very part time for two years using all sorts of ineffective methods, and have managed to get to a point where I can understand chit chat and read short messages from my Chinese friends, although I do need to look up a word here and there.

In that case I would get your Chinese to level awesome and then ladder to Japanese as much as studying them both at uni allows.

EDIT: Or even better, why don't you just avoid University all together? I think it will be more of a hindrance than a help. Then you can ladder properly. I studied for 6 months in Japan at a school with a very good reputation and 95% of it was a waste of time.

Once you get good you can just get take exams to "prove" (JLPT at least doesn't prove a whole lot) you're good.

Like I said, I'm pursuing a PhD and a career in academia/research. How would avoiding university help that at all? I'm not going so I can get good at Chinese and Japanese; I know I can do that on my own. I'm going because it's the first necessary step to doing what I want to do. What I'm asking here is, "How do I learn most efficiently while I'm there?"

It may well be that I need to focus on Chinese until I'm awesome and then turn to Japanese. Or it may turn out that I can do them simultaneously. That's what I'm asking for advice on. I've given plenty of thought to whether I should go back to school or not, trust me. It's not a decision that you just make on a whim, especially married and with a career.

thermal Wrote:EDIT: Or even better, why don't you just avoid University all together? I think it will be more of a hindrance than a help. Then you can ladder properly. I studied for 6 months in Japan at a school with a very good reputation and 95% of it was a waste of time.

Once you get good you can just get take exams to "prove" (JLPT at least doesn't prove a whole lot) you're good.

While I totally agree with this idea, I don't think it would help him get into the field of historical linguistics. You should probably try your best to skip another bachelor though. Pretty sure that with any undergrad plus the ability to speak Chinese/Japanese you'd be able to get a masters in it. I think most of what you learn in undergrad is not from the crappy classes, but from the experience itself. So since you already had that on top of life experience, you'd probably end up wasting a lot of time and money. Maybe just try to get to China some how..

welldone101 Wrote:While I totally agree with this idea, I don't think it would help him get into the field of historical linguistics. You should probably try your best to skip another bachelor though. Pretty sure that with any undergrad plus the ability to speak Chinese/Japanese you'd be able to get a masters in it. I think most of what you learn in undergrad is not from the crappy classes, but from the experience itself. So since you already had that on top of life experience, you'd probably end up wasting a lot of time and money. Maybe just try to get to China some how..

I should have said, I agree with that too. If I weren't pursuing the career I am, I would definitely not be going back to school. Ha!

Unfortunately, my bachelor's is not a BA. It's a Bachelor of Music. I took few generals and the ones I did take were artistic in nature (Art History, Western Mythology, etc.). What's more, many Chinese MA programs require a BA in Chinese, and if it isn't an explicit requirement, many schools say something to the effect of "most accepted applicant will have a Bachelor of Arts in Chinese, or its equivalent, including at least 3 years of Chinese study at the undergraduate level." So it's kind of necessary. Maybe not absolutely, but kinda. Fortunately there's in-state tuition.

I'll be doing the same as you! Majoring in Chinese and minoring in japanese. Starting in late Setember. I'm restarting RTK now (because I had to stop to study for the national exams for like 2 weeks), it's not a restarst, I'm just reviewing again the kanji I had already learned (about 670 or so).

I still don't know how my schedule will be, but I'll definetely study both languages everyday, alongside with the culture, history, politics and economics subjects. I already started learning japanese because I want to be the best and because I wanna study as much chinese as possible, to have a good career.

I tought of buying RTH, after finishing RTK, while I'm on college, but I'm still not sure, because I'll learn a massive hanzi quantity and am afraid that RTH will confuse me.

Nice, this thread is so interesting to me

(RIP MJ & FARRAH. In loving memory. - sorry, I just had to pay a tribute)

What program requires 4 years chinese, 2 years classical chinese, and 3 years of japanese? It seems like a heckuva lot, could you give me a link?

Here's a thought, and I have no idea if this is possible or not. But you could possibly try learning the most frequent hanzis up to 80% or 90% usage, which might be 2000 or 3500 hanzi. And then attempt to ladder Japanese with that.

In some other thread, someone suggested going mono-dictionary once 4 of 5 words (or 80%) is known. I'm planning on attempting to go J-J once I learn about 1000-1500 kanji and 3000-5000 words, which should be about 80%.

scuda Wrote:What program requires 4 years chinese, 2 years classical chinese, and 3 years of japanese? It seems like a heckuva lot, could you give me a link?

Like I said in that paragraph, it's Harvard's PhD program. These are pretty standard requirements. Most other PhD programs have similar requirements. Some require 5 years of Chinese, some require only one year of Classical Chinese, but all the programs I've seen require 3 years of Japanese. Some even require 2 years of Korean besides the Chinese and Japanese. The point is that Harvard (which has probably the best program in North America) prefers you to have those requirements out of the way before you apply. The more I can get done in undergrad, the better, so I don't have to worry about it while I'm getting my master's (or at the most I'd like to only need to take Classical Chinese during my master's).

Quote:Here's a thought, and I have no idea if this is possible or not. But you could possibly try learning the most frequent hanzis up to 80% or 90% usage, which might be 2000 or 3500 hanzi. And then attempt to ladder Japanese with that.

In some other thread, someone suggested going mono-dictionary once 4 of 5 words (or 80%) is known. I'm planning on attempting to go J-J once I learn about 1000-1500 kanji and 3000-5000 words, which should be about 80%.

I guess I'm not really following you here. How would I ladder Japanese from hanzi knowledge? My Chinese isn't that good yet.

scuda Wrote:What program requires 4 years chinese, 2 years classical chinese, and 3 years of japanese? It seems like a heckuva lot, could you give me a link?

Those are usually about the requirements for applying to a top graduate program for an EAL. The years for an additional language vary between programs though (some programs require applicants for a Japanese doctorate to have two years of formal study in a language applicable to their research–generally Mandarin–while other programs require more/less).

For the topic itself, I can't really offer any advice on studying methods. I've seen people double major in both Mandarin and Japanese starting from scratch, and they seemed to do it simply through sheer effort, time, and devotion.

Unfortuntely learning both can be very confusing, since the readings for characters is so different, and often a character will have one use in Mandarin, while having a completely different use in Japanese. You really need to categorize everything you learn in very seperate compartments in your brain so that things don't cross. When studying Japanese, tap into the Japanese Memory Bank of your mind, and vice versa.

One problem might be additional coursework, for general education, etc. I imagine that would be very rough if you had to study two EAL languages at the same time on top of other classes. It's all very possible though, just be very efficient with your time, and study doing every summer you can. GPA is going to be very important for applying to Harvard's Chinese Literature program, so make sure not to let yourself become overwhelmed.

bflatnine Wrote:Chinese & Japanese Simultaneously?

Why not?

scuda Wrote:Chinese & Japanese Simultaneously?

Do you know that by just learning the 20 most common English words you will be able to recognize nearly 31% of the words in MacBeth!

But it does NOT mean that you can understand 1/3 of Macbeth, you will not understand anything!

Aijin Wrote:One problem might be additional coursework, for general education, etc. I imagine that would be very rough if you had to study two EAL languages at the same time on top of other classes. It's all very possible though, just be very efficient with your time, and study doing every summer you can. GPA is going to be very important for applying to Harvard's Chinese Literature program, so make sure not to let yourself become overwhelmed.

I think what I'll do is go to a community college for the first year, so fortunately I'll be pretty much done with my generals after my first year (some of my generals from my first degree will transfer. During that time I'll be studying Chinese and Japanese like crazy. If I can test into third year Chinese (shouldn't be a problem) and second year Japanese (they use Yookoso 2 for second year), I'll be able to finish after 2 years at the university. Those two years will be nothing but language and literature classes, East Asian history, and linguistics. I may take a semester abroad if possible. If it looks like GPA will be a problem, I'll slow down.

Yeah, that sounds like a pretty good strategy. As long as you study like crazy like you said, then I am sure you can get the B.A. and the minor with a 4.0. Do you have any plans on what you'll do after your undergrad studies to prepare you for the grad program?

I don't really have many resources for studying. I just read an occasional novel and watch KTV videos on YouTube to keep my Mandarin from withering too much.

welldone101 Wrote:Myself for example, I want to learn Japanese, Chinese, and Spanish. However, I don't currently speak another language (unless you count sign?) so I'm focusing completely on Japanese until I can count it officially as my "second language".

Aww...you should've been born in Europe (not incl. Britain) or other non English speaking country

Since you already know some Chinese, I should think you'll be fine, though there's bound to be tricky bits. It's indeed not unusual for Universities to want you to study more than one language at once (my flatmate taking Latin American Studies was studying Spanish, French and Portuguese). One MA program in Medieval Studies I considered applying to insisted you did Latin, Anglo Saxon, and basic Old Norse/Old French. In the end I went for one that just wants you to learn Latin, since it's at my current University (though other languages are strongly hinted at as being a good idea. I don't *think* they meant I should learn Japanese, but then, they should have been more specific). I want to work in academia too, I'm interested in Medieval Literature, both Japanese and (Middle) English. I'm not really expecting the Latin to be fun, and am not quite sure how I'll balance it with Japanese, since they threaten to get you up to 'readable' standard in a year (whether you want to or not)...

I would probably concentrate hard on Chinese for a while, then switch to both. The really tough bit will be balancing it with other things. Although it is important to keep going, I know I wouldn't have finished my dissertation if I hadn't stopped adding new Kanji for a month, so I would say do scale it back if you have to.

Although I know not everyone is positive about University language programs (not without reason, I'm sure), I think they can be pretty good, though they probably are generally better at teaching non-Asian languages.

Good luck!

Aijin Wrote:Do you have any plans on what you'll do after your undergrad studies to prepare you for the grad program?

Beyond going for an MA, not really. I'll be looking into it over the next several years, asking my professors, etc. I may try to spend a year working in China or Taiwan between my BA and MA.

Ampharos64 Wrote:It's indeed not unusual for Universities to want you to study more than one language at once (my flatmate taking Latin American Studies was studying Spanish, French and Portuguese). One MA program in Medieval Studies I considered applying to insisted you did Latin, Anglo Saxon, and basic Old Norse/Old French.

Yeah some places do have some pretty insane requirements. I saw one PhD program (can't remember where) that required 5 years of Chinese, 2 years of Classical Chinese, 3 years of Japanese, 2 years of Korean, and 2 years of French. I'm sure you already know this, but for those who aren't familiar with graduate work, the reason for the other languages is that there has been a lot of good Sinology work done in those languages (esp. Japanese), so you'll need to understand the language in order to be able to do good research.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the requirements listed are generally minimums. For instance, they may require a higher level of proficiency, or they may require additional languages, depending on your field and your research.

bflatnine Wrote:My research interests (as of now of course...this may and probably will change) are in the area of historical linguistics, particularly character etymology and especially how the characters are used in other languages

Historic linguistics---awesome! Please please don't forget us when you're doing your research, keep a blog or run a podcast about the interesting things you learn about in these topics! I know engaging with the lay community is frowned upon in most humanities departments but us amateurs will love you, and who knows, having an online presence in the field might actually help your faculty position search once you're done...

bflatnine Wrote:I think what I'll do is go to a community college for the first year

How come you don't want to study by yourself full-time for a year or two, gain intermediate/advanced mastery of both languages (studying full-time, no homework/tests/commutes, possible?), and then go to community college?

Man, the last post is from 5 years ago!

Woah, talk about a blast from the past. I'm still here though.

When I wrote that post, I was planning to do a BA, then an MA, and eventually move on to the PhD. Well, I didn't get accepted for the BA, which was a good thing. After getting in touch with some profs, they encouraged me to move abroad to work on my language skills. They said good language ability was more important than having a BA in Chinese.

So I moved to Taiwan in the fall of 2011 to attend a language school. I started translating professionally in the spring of 2013 and started an MA in the Department of Chinese at one of the top universities here several months later. I also took some C-E interpretation courses on the side. I've written several research papers in Chinese, given presentations in Chinese, and translated everything from annual financial reports to journal articles in psychology. My Chinese is now at a very high professional level, and my classical Chinese is nearly as good as most college-educated Taiwanese people (except those who majored in Chinese lit, of course). My coursework has primarily focused on palaeography, and I'm able to read excavated texts from the Warring States period reasonably well now (though I have a long way to go on that front). I'm also currently working with a team of other researchers to develop a new, etymologically accurate, pedagogically sound way to learn Chinese characters.

I won't be finishing the MA in Taiwan, though. My wife got a job at a great international school in Tokyo, so I'll be moving there with her in a few weeks. I've studied Japanese here and there over the last year or so, but I'll really buckle down with it once I get there. I won't be attending a language school this time, at least not at first. I'll be learning on my own, with tutors, and by talking with people in my neighborhood. I might look into attending classes down the road, we'll see. Her contract is for two years, but we may decide to stay longer. If so, I might look into doing an MA there and transfer whatever coursework they'll allow me to. I do eventually want to do a PhD, but who knows when that will be. I'm pretty busy.

Whoa, cool update. Congrats on everything.