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using the "hole" primitive for "window"

#1
I had just failed the kanji for window (yet again), and, deciding that my story needed serious retooling, or even replacing, I scrolled down the stories and realised that a number of people had made the connection between the "roof" and "human legs" at the top of the character for window (749), and the primitive for hole (1316). I also noticed that someone had gone and reported all the stories that connected the kanji for window with the primitive meaning hole. I suppose that I should thank this person, because if it weren't for the little red exclamation marks next to all those stories my attention may never had been drawn to what I now see as a natural connection.

I feel that now that I have reconfigured my story for window to take advantage of my image for the hole primitive, I'm much less likely to forget what has been a troublesome kanji for me. Anyone else feel that Window perhaps comes too early in the book, and are there any other examples of Kanji that would be best served by being grouped elsewhere?
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#2
I also have problems with the Window character, and there is nothing wrong using the hole primitive as an element to help you remember that character. I'll be editing my story for window to reflect this.

I think maybe window should have come after the hole primitive, had it I would have probably remembered it more.
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#3
Django Wrote:are there any other examples of Kanji that would be best served by being grouped elsewhere?
Here's a list of some characters which can be useful for learning or simplifying earlier ones. In each case I've first listed the character/primitive with its name and number, and then given one or more kanji (name & number only) which it earlier appeared in.

Most of these come from RTK3, but can they be helpful when learning kanji in RTK1.

I expect I've missed a few. If anyone spots any others and sends it to this thread I'll update the list and add them to it.

hole 穴 1316: window 749
ability 能 2004: bear 2003
sign of the hare 卯 2041: willow 1421, egg 1422
this here 此 2043: feminine 563, purple 1375
sheik (璃 right hand side of 2048): detach 1492
shoeshine (憐 right hand side of 2051): neighboring 1311
streetwalker (悛 right hand side of 2059): tempt 766, sagacious 1014, acid 1437
mortar 臼 2063: lagoon 2039
understandably 尤 2087: concerning 1969
grab 采 2090: pick 733
a 或 2091: range 356, beguile 614
chop off 斬 2092: temporarily 1134, steadily 1135
in the nick of time 愈 2433: healing 2037
progress 晋 2436: universal 1786
uncivilized 胡 2470: lake 148
tight 窄 2614: squeeze 1324
exclamation 耶 2680: grandpa 2334, coconut tree 2524
about that time 頃 2791: lean 1011
first day of the month 朔 2846: 1960 model
southeast 巽 2861: elect 1804
Manchu dynasty 秦 2877: hazel 2475
incandescent 赫 2908: menacing / upbraid 2026
forked 叉 2914: flea 2681
helping hand 丞 2919: steam 1900
dragon (old) 龍 2981: attack 2025
go smoothly 亨 3001: stew 2549
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#4
Nice work Katsuo.
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#5
To add to Katsuo's list

tryst 逢(2417) sew 縫(1563)
grab 采 (2090) pick 採(733) vegetable 菜(734) coloring 彩(1714)
folding screen 屏(2223) fence 塀(1056)
Edited: 2008-01-22, 3:33 pm
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#6
Useful list! Here are a couple of others...

apprehensive 畏 2569 : indecent 2336
pheasant 雉 2584: trim 2353
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#7
Cheers, Katsuo, nolusu and adrianbarritt. Didn't realise there were so many, but it does make sense.

I've just this minute found out that the latest edition of RTKIII is finally available for purchase, so I reckon the list you've compiled may help out a few people.

Meolox, I feel your pain! Let's hope window is now conquered forever.
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#8
Django Wrote:I scrolled down the stories and realised that a number of people had made the connection between the "roof" and "human legs" at the top of the character for window (749), and the primitive for hole (1316). I also noticed that someone had gone and reported all the stories that connected the kanji for window with the primitive meaning hole. I suppose that I should thank this person, because if it weren't for the little red exclamation marks next to all those stories my attention may never had been drawn to what I now see as a natural connection.
you're welcome! although I actually did it for the opposite reason! I'd seen on a previous frame that someone had reported a story as a warning to others because they'd mis-used a primitive. so when I saw hole being used there I had a look and realised that hole uses enter, while window uses human legs, so I reported those stories as a warning to others

I write with a brush-pen when reviewing and care about learning the particular stroke types used in each kanji so I'll be able to write them properly with a brush. after that frame I realised that most people just write with a pen or otherwise don't care about using the the correct strokes (especially since they are often confused in the text anyway) and so held off on the reporting for subsequent frames

it'd be nice if there were different categories for reporting, since the report button is being used for various things now...

anyway, I'm glad you brought it up, because the list from katsuo and others is really useful. it'd be great if this site had a wiki where this kind of thing could be maintained.
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#9
cangy Wrote:...when I saw hole being used there I had a look and realised that hole uses enter, while window uses human legs, so I reported those stories as a warning to others
Heisig Wrote:1316. hole. As a primitive, this kanji uses an alternate form: the primitive for "eight" is replaced with that for "human legs"
As Heisig mentions, when the "hole" radical appears as a part of other characters its form is always modified to include "human legs".

So it is correct to specify "window" = "hole" + "elbow" + "heart".
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#10
Katsuo Wrote:As Heisig mentions, when the "hole" radical appears as a part of other characters its form is always modified to include "human legs".
oh, probably should have checked the book first... my bad!
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#11
Here's an updated list; in fact two. I've included the other member's data above (thank you), plus a few more I came across.

There are now 35 (update: 42) primitives listed, affecting 45 (update: 55) keywords. I've put the list in two formats, the second is probably most convenient for people working through the book. First table as a spreadsheet.

1316 hole 穴: 749 window 窓
2004 ability 能: 2003 bear 熊
2041 sign of the hare 卯: 1421 willow 柳, 1422 egg 卵
2043 this here 此: 563 feminine 雌, 1375 purple 紫
2048 sheik (right hand side of 璃): 1492 detach 離
2051 shoeshine (right hand side of 憐): 1311 neighboring 隣
2059 streetwalker (right hand side of 悛): 766 tempt 唆, 1014 sagacious 俊, 1437 acid 酸
2063 mortar 臼: 2039 lagoon 潟
2087 understandably 尤: 1969 concerning 就
2090 grab 采: 733 pick 採, 734 vegetable 菜, 1714 coloring 彩
2091 a 或: 356 range 域, 614 beguile 惑
2092 chop off 斬: 1134 temporarily 暫, 1135 steadily 漸
2181 dumbfounded 呆: 997 protect 保
2223 folding screen 屏: 1056 fence 塀
2238 shire 庄: 923 cosmetics 粧, 1024 squat/sit 座
2433 in the nick of time 愈: 2037 healing 癒
2417 tryst 逢: 1563 sew 縫
2431 instantaneously 忽: 2277 infatuation 惚
2436 progress 晋: 1786 universal 普
2446 limpid 晃: 410 canopy 幌
2451 dusk 昏: 1830 marriage 婚
2463 rib 肋: 941 muscle 筋
2470 uncivilized 胡: 148 lake 湖
2569 apprehensive 畏: 2336 indecent 猥
2584 pheasant 雉: 2353 trim 薙
2614 tight 窄: 1324 squeeze 搾
2622 concubine 妾: 672 touch 接
2637 ancient harp 筑: 950 fabricate 築
2680 exclamation 耶: 2334 grandpa 爺, 2524 coconut tree 椰
2791 about that time 頃: 1011 lean 傾
2846 first day of the month 朔: 1960 model 塑
2861 southeast 巽: 1804 elect 選
2872 start 孟: 1456 fierce 猛
2877 Manchu dynasty 秦: 2475 hazel 榛
2906 chieftain 酋: 1438 furthermore/ waver 猶, 1439 revered 尊, 2425 courtesy 鄭, 2493 Japanese oak 楢
2908 incandescent 赫: 2026 menacing / upbraid 嚇
2914 forked 叉: 2681 flea 蚤
2915 rose of Sharon 舜: 817 wink 瞬
2919 helping hand 丞: 1900 steam 蒸
2928 large hill阜: 2189 wharf 埠
2981 dragon (old) 龍: 2025 attack 襲
3001 go smoothly 亨: 2549 stew 烹

The next table is in Key Word order. Also available as a spreadsheet.

148 lake 湖 2470 uncivilized 胡
356 range 域 2091 a 或
410 canopy 幌 2446 limpid 晃
563 feminine 雌 2043 this here 此
614 beguile 惑 2091 a 或
672 touch 接 2622 concubine 妾
733 pick 採 2090 grab 采
734 vegetable 菜 2090 grab 采
749 window 窓 1316 hole 穴
766 tempt 唆 2059 streetwalker (right hand side of) 悛
817 wink 瞬 2915 rose of Sharon 舜
923 cosmetics 粧 2238 shire 庄
941 muscle 筋 2463 rib 肋
950 fabricate 築 2637 ancient harp 筑
997 protect 保 2181 dumbfounded 呆
1011 lean 傾 2791 about that time 頃
1014 sagacious 俊 2059 streetwalker (right hand side of) 悛
1024 squat/sit 座 2238 shire 庄*
1056 fence 塀 2223 folding screen 屏
1134 temporarily 暫 2092 chop off 斬
1135 steadily 漸 2092 chop off 斬
1311 neighboring 隣 2051 shoeshine (right hand side of) 憐
1324 squeeze 搾 2614 tight 窄
1375 purple 紫 2043 this here 此
1421 willow 柳 2041 sign of the hare 卯
1422 egg 卵 2041 sign of the hare 卯*
1437 acid 酸 2059 streetwalker (right hand side of) 悛
1438 furthermore/ waver 猶 2906 chieftain 酋
1439 revered 尊 2906 chieftain 酋
1456 fierce 猛 2872 start 孟
1492 detach 離 2048 sheik (right hand side of) 璃
1563 sew 縫 2417 tryst 逢
1714 coloring 彩 2090 grab 采
1786 universal 普 2436 progress 晋
1804 elect 選 2861 southeast 巽
1830 marriage 婚 2451 dusk 昏
1900 steam 蒸 2919 helping hand 丞
1960 model 塑 2846 first day of the month 朔
1969 concerning 就 2087 understandably 尤
2003 bear 熊 2004 ability 能
2025 attack 襲 2981 dragon (old) 龍
2026 menacing / upbraid 嚇 2908 incandescent 赫
2037 healing 癒 2433 in the nick of time 愈
2039 lagoon 潟 2063 mortar 臼
2189 wharf 埠 2928 large hill 阜
2277 infatuation 惚 2431 instantaneously 忽
2334 grandpa 爺 2680 exclamation 耶
2336 indecent 猥 2569 apprehensive 畏
2353 trim 薙 2584 pheasant 雉
2425 courtesy 鄭 2906 chieftain 酋
2475 hazel 榛 2877 Manchu dynasty 秦
2493 Japanese oak 楢 2906 chieftain 酋
2524 coconut tree 椰 2680 exclamation 耶
2549 stew 烹 3001 go smoothly 亨
2681 flea 蚤 2914 forked 叉

Edit: * = Primitive is modified
Edited: 2009-05-04, 10:30 am
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#12
Excellent list, Katsuo. Good work.
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#13
Ah, much thanks. "This here feminine person likes turkey" works better for me than the other story I had. Big Grin

Guess it's time to start revising a bunch of my stories-- this is going to help a lot. Many of these characters had stories I just couldn't always get.
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#14
This is why this website community is amazing.
Thanks Katsuo, your list will be a great help to me for revising stories Smile
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#15
Perhapse Katsuo's list should have its own thread? (I almost didnt ever bother to read this thread, excepct that I saw it kept remaining at the top). I am sure other members would be interested in this list.
In Hindsight, I for one, would have like to have some of this knowledge from RTK3 while doing RTK1! (it is still usefull now-Thanks Smile
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#16
2038丹cinnabar 1868 舟boat
2147匂aroma 451 渇 thirst
2236庇overhang 1999鹿 deer
2844坐sitting in meditation 1024座 sit
2879隼peregrine falcon 564 準 semi-
3001亨go smoothly 308 享 receive
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#17
When i saw 寡 Widow, I recognised the lower radical as 分 Part

781 part 分: 617 Widow 寡
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#18
According to Heisig, the primitives in Widow are house, head, dagger. If you change the lower part to the part primitive, you'll mess up the rest of the primitives.
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#19
There are many instances where strokes are shared between two primitives. I think it would be ok to combine part with head/page.
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#20
I'm sorry for resurrecting an old thread, but I'm using it on a regular basis because Katsuo lists are really useful. Just wanted to add that "lofty" (#2095) 尭 is expressed in RTK1 as if it were a primitive without a kanji of its own, and it's given the meaning "strawman". It's contained in "bake" (#1200) 焼 and "daybreak" (#1201) 暁. I'm not sure if this happens with other primitives as well, but I believe is worth noting it here and, if Katsuo agrees, to include them on the list.
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#21
For "window" I just think of a house, two legs jumping first through the window, then an elbow, then a heart. Just imagine a person jumping through the window and his body parts hit in that order. ... Works for me =p.
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#22
Another one not listed in Katsuo's list: "comma-design" (#2096) 巴, used in "grasp" (#1752) 把, "color" (1753) 色 (and derivatives) and "fertilizer" (#1756) 肥.

[Edit] One more: "offspring" (#2097) 甫, appearing in RTK1 as the "dog tag" primitive, used from #1836 to #1840 in that book
Edited: 2012-06-16, 6:40 am
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#23
bodhisamaya Wrote:2038丹cinnabar 1868 舟boat
2236庇overhang 1999鹿 deer
2879隼peregrine falcon 564 準 semi-
3001亨go smoothly 308 享 receive
These ones do not seem quite "kosher" as far as primitives, but I haven't actually used RTK so I may be wrong. Other thoughts?

EDIT: What I mean is that for instance, 準 is not 隼 + the water primitive, it's the water primitive plus 隹 on top of 十. It seems to me that trying to break it down and learn 準 as having 隼 in it, you could end up miswriting the character.

More:
Quote:2238 shire 庄: 923 cosmetics 粧, 1024 squat/sit 座
923 is fine, but for 1024 it seems like it might mess up the stroke order if you think of it as 庄 plus two people. Doesn't Heisig usually separate characters so that you finish writing one primitive completely before starting the next one?

Quote:2914 forked 叉: 2681 flea 蚤
The top part of 2681 has an extra stroke compared to 2914.
Edited: 2012-06-03, 3:39 am
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#24
yudantaiteki Wrote:These ones do not seem quite "kosher" as far as primitives, but I haven't actually used RTK so I may be wrong. Other thoughts?
Yes, the method works by adding discrete parts (primitives) rather than modifying them. I agree that doing the latter can lead to confusion.

Having said that, just occasionally it can be a good way to learn an otherwise difficult character, e.g. If you already know summer, then 憂 could be seen as 夏 with 冖 and 心 replacing the 7th stroke.

Heisig also does it once or twice in the books.

In the list above (reply #11) 1024 & 1422 also modify the primitive, so I've now added a note. In the case of 2681 蚤, the extra stroke ("drop") is a primitive in its own right. It doesn't modify the stroke order or shape of 叉, so this can be remembered with the usual additive process.
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#25
There are cases in RTK where primitives are drawn while other primitives are unfinished. This is true for most of the characters that use primitives in the arrow/march family (式 戎 蔵 滅).

There are also places where not only is another primitive written mid-primitive, but where an added primitive distorts another one (黙; and interpreting it as 黒 + 犬 is even etymologically correct).

So I don't think any of the examples Yudan pointed out are non-kosher by RTK's standards.


Returning to the original topic (which I realize is very old), not only is interpreting 窓 as 穴+ム+心 valid, 穴 is in fact 窓's main radical, so I'd say it's even counterproductive to not interpret it that way.
Edited: 2012-06-03, 10:14 am
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