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+--- Thread: Why did Christianity succeed in Korea but failed in Japan? (/thread-9886.html)
Why did Christianity succeed in Korea but failed in Japan? - Javizy - 2012-09-06
dtcamero Wrote:this entire thread assumes that if christianity in particular is made available to people, it will naturally flourish.If I imagine myself living hundreds of years ago, being told I'm going to hell and that I'm basically a lower form of life as a non-Christian would be more likely to convince me to go to a church once a week than it is now. I'm sure there would've been countless other factors involved, but when it comes to the 押し売り stakes, I'd take the scaremongering preacher spreading hate and bigotry over the monk reassuring me I should be more accepting and generally less of a judgemental leprechaun.
Why did Christianity succeed in Korea but failed in Japan? - six8ten - 2012-09-06
quark Wrote:Oh, I understand the pressure from within to go forth and knock on doors. I just meant that even though it's a small portion of the population, you'll still run into it in Japan.six8ten Wrote:The Christian population might be quite small in Japan, yet it didn't stop the Japanese Jehovah's witnesses from knocking on my door, nor did it keep the gaijin Mormons at the train station at bay back when I lived in Hokkaido.As someone who had (tried to have been) raised a Jehovah's Witness, I can tell you that those people have very little choice as to whether or not they go knock on doors. They are pressured into it, absolutely have to report how many hours they spend, and if they don't spend enough time, they are lectured and further pressured. Oh, and face possible ostracism from friends and family.
Why did Christianity succeed in Korea but failed in Japan? - yudantaiteki - 2012-09-06
JimmySeal Wrote:Right -- I'm not entirely sure what dtcamero was getting at, but perhaps it has to do with some of the similarities of Pure Land buddhism and Christianity, but even for people who believe(d?) that calling on Amida's name is all you have to do to be saved, Amida was never considered the only "god" (to use that word loosely).yudantaiteki Wrote:Describing Buddhism as a "monotheistic" religion is a big stretch.I think "big stretch" is a very generous way of putting it. Different varieties of Buddhism are either atheistic or polytheistic (Japanese Buddhism is mostly polytheistic), but I don't think any type of Buddhism is monotheistic.
Christianity and Islam are actually very unusual among world religions in being monotheistic. There are a few other monotheistic religions, but not that many.
One theory I've heard for why Christianity has never been popular in Japan is that Japan has always had a multi-faith, non-exclusive religiosity, and even their basic approach to religion is somewhat different than the West.
I took a class from a professor named Tom Kasulis who has written an interesting book on Shinto; he argues that the common perception of the Japanese as "atheists" is wrong, or at the very least misleading in that it makes people think that "atheist" is the same as "non religious". His opinion is that the way the Japanese approach Buddhism and Shinto in modern Japan is completely legitimate as religion, just in a different way than we're used to from the West.
Why did Christianity succeed in Korea but failed in Japan? - nadiatims - 2012-09-06
there are people who take their religion seriously in japan (serious buddhists, souka gakkai and so on).
I think the reason it never took off, is that it was initially repressed, and that since then there has either been something else to fill the void for those that are inclined to become religious, or japan has been on equal footing with cultures that have tried to introduce it. A foreign religion is probably more attractive if it's being introduced by a group that are have higher economic status or are seen as culturally superior in some way or another. Remember that Japan used to have the world's 2nd biggest economy.
Why did Christianity succeed in Korea but failed in Japan? - Zgarbas - 2012-09-06
I always thought Christianity never took off in Japan since it was pretty much illegal until a century-and-a-half ago, and then half o that time was spent feeling deep-rooted resentment towards the West and everything it stood for? Unlike countries which have had over a millenia to build up the Christian fanbase, Japan basically only has a century.
awaken Wrote:One is a religion: It involves 2000 years of formation, was the cause of many historical events, both good and bad, and has billions of followers, many of which dedicate their entire lives to it; most of which spend their lives in a manner which respects it and its creeds. If you're talking religion in general then make that 5000+ years, with what, 80% of the important events in history being more or less directly linked to it? Most people's links with religion are of a spiritual nature. It's a touchy enough subject that real wars are started because of it. It's also touchy because people generally don't like strangers coming over and insulting important parts of their lives just so they can feel better about themselves.Zgarbas Wrote:Look, there's a difference between insulting a band and insulting people's belief.Could you explain what's the difference?
My belief is AKB48 is great. Other people said AKB48 is a piece of shit. (And then no one started a flame-war, by the way.)
It's a shame that a forum full of clever people is moderated by you. Go and censure people for saying something bad about a thousands-years-old fiction book, while you don't care about the rest of critiques... Keep up the good work. I'm leaving now.
One is a idol factory that's been there for a few years, and most people's links with it is that it's a good entertainment/fap source. It's a touchy subject because people would like to touch the girls that are part of it.
Oooh, and there's the part where you insult people's intelligence because clearly if they were intelligent they would despise their beliefs, since clearly intelligence and personal beliefs are directly proportional =/. If anyone called you dumb for listening to AKB48 I would moderate their post. Why should you be allowed to be calling a large amount of people dumb?
Why did Christianity succeed in Korea but failed in Japan? - nadiatims - 2012-09-06
so in other words people are not allowed to discuss religion openly (despite it's importance) because it might hurt some peoples' feelings...
Why did Christianity succeed in Korea but failed in Japan? - umetani666 - 2012-09-06
it's funny how no one reacted to the only intelligent post on this thread, that of user prink.
@prink
thanks for explaining that. i guess some users think that every thread is about them...
Why did Christianity succeed in Korea but failed in Japan? - buonaparte - 2012-09-06
I think Japan is too great a nation to bother about a minor provicial religious belief, whether you call it 'Christianity' or some other 'Vanity.'
Why did Christianity succeed in Korea but failed in Japan? - DevvaR - 2012-09-06
I think there's a difference between insulting and discussing.
Why did Christianity succeed in Korea but failed in Japan? - chamcham - 2012-09-06
dtcamero Wrote:the japanese already have a monotheistic religion which is quite well established (buddhism)Isn't Buddhism "the religion without a god"?
Why did Christianity succeed in Korea but failed in Japan? - HonyakuJoshua - 2012-09-06
dtcamero Wrote:the japanese already have a monotheistic religion which is quite well established (buddhism)Buddhism isn't usually regarded as monotheistic.
Why did Christianity succeed in Korea but failed in Japan? - buonaparte - 2012-09-06
![[Image: 8xqz2d.jpg]](http://i52.tinypic.com/8xqz2d.jpg)
Why did Christianity succeed in Korea but failed in Japan? - ファブリス - 2012-09-06
The thing is these discussions are always extremely superficial. Most people know nothing at all about Christianity, Buddhism and probably most other religions for that matter. I don't know much either, but enough to know I'm not qualified to make in depth discussions about these subjects.
For starters, there are many layers to "religion" and it is a very complex topic. There is the mainstream belief in God, which in fact has nothing much to do with the core of these religions. This is "religion" as practiced by the "lay people"; Then there is the "religion" as practiced by the monks and nuns, then there are the central teachings which sometilmes, in the case of Buddhism reach into philosophy and very deep and complex topics about the nature of reality that have absolutely nothing to do with your average superficial idea about "religion"...
In fact in Christianity there are also practices that are very much akin to the practices taught in Buddhism, and the experience of Christian mystics very close to that described by the Buddha. They call it "prayer" instead of meditation but it's very much the same.
And as nestOr shared some links here in the past, there are many scientific experiments and measurements that have been done on meditators to demonstrate plasticity in the brain and changes that followed years of practice of meditation.
So mystical practices are not necessarily bogus, they lead to changes in the brain, which in turns can lead to "mystical" experiences, which in turn lead to a different appreciation about life...
Quote:In fact, IME, it (religion) is often a big hurdle, a barrier to awakening that must be overcome. There are mystics in every religious tradition, but if you read their work, what there is of it, or the original teachings of the founders of the major religions, what they found is virtually the same, amazingly so. As their followers and successors get involved, and begin "organizing" it into a religion, it becomes a set of practices, beliefs and doctrine that must be overcome if one is to be ultimately free. No matter how hard the founders try to prevent this from happening, their followers will not be deterred, i.e. Buddhism.http://happinessbeyondthought.blogspot.be/2012/02/is-religion-useful-in-awakening-your.html
Why did Christianity succeed in Korea but failed in Japan? - kainzero - 2012-09-06
TheVinster Wrote:No sorry for ignorance. More like I meant it that, as an American, Christianity plays too much of a role in politics. I'm sure there are many factors affecting Japan's politics but I'm happy Christianity isn't an imposing one.good thing shintoism played a huge role in the events leading up to and also including WW2.
ever hear of the yasukuni shrine?
i generally despise religion because the tenets and good will that it's supposed to promote become weapons of hate towards other religions.
that's also why i think there's some irony with yasukuni because by their religion they enshrine everybody which includes war criminals. it reminds me of how in school i was taught to pray for enemies and "evil" people for salvation and to not wish for anybody to go to hell.
on a side note i went to catholic church in tokyo when i traveled there for christmas. i've never felt so awkward. my japanese sucks so i didn't understand much of anything, everyone there was old, like 60s-70s, and the community was so small that during the announcements they introduced everyone who visited from like chiba and other far areas, and me and my cousin were hoping to god (pun intended) that we didn't get called out. but everyone seemed really nice.
then i was annoyed by the hardcore christians outside meiji jingu on their megaphones telling me i'm going to go to hell and that the world will end.
Why did Christianity succeed in Korea but failed in Japan? - dtcamero - 2012-09-06
ok guys way to get hung up on an ancillary detail in my post and miss the larger point. who says it ought to succeed?? there are already sufficiently developed spiritual options there that by their being in existence for hundreds/thousands of years are a more natural fit.
does it never strike people as odd to see a thousand koreans in a western church praying to white jesus? do these people not act oddly as a result (e.g. proselytizing in dangerous places like afghanistan) I dated a christian korean girl and she was largely unable to describe her religion (not her spirituality but her religion...korean presbyterianism) besides being otherwise quite intelligent... she kept getting hung up on this "well if we can't agree on the bible than we can't argue these other points" like the bible is this immutable object without a history that didn't go through an editing process and wasn't created within a historical context.
at the end the whole thing (not just her version of spirituality, but that of her korean christian friends as well) struck me as incredibly cultish... my father was a lay catholic minister and I have no bias against any religion but the feeling I got from those people was really weird. I don't know if any of you saw the movie "The Gods must be Crazy," but that was the feeling I got. These people received this alien culture from far away and were told to believe it or else bad things happen... and they did so but in this katakana-ized way, that lost all the context and history and deeper cultural meaning. All they were left with is the literal text, which very few western christians take literally.
Why did Christianity succeed in Korea but failed in Japan? - buonaparte - 2012-09-06
ファブリス Wrote:The thing is these discussions are always extremely superficial.True. ANY discussion on an Internet forum is superficial. Fora are meant to be a meeting point and have some small talk about nothing in particular.
Why did Christianity succeed in Korea but failed in Japan? - prink - 2012-09-06
Christianity should be thought of as a cultural institution rather than religion in this context. The contents of its beliefs have very little to do with its success in China and Korea. I think a lot of you are looking at this from a modern Western perspective and missing the point. The article below should help make clear why Christianity was successful in Korea.
Protestant Missions as Cultural Imperialism in Early Modern Korea: Hegemony and its Discontents
http://www.ekoreajournal.net/sysLib/down.php?file=..%2FUPLOAD%2FT_articles%2FPDF39410
Why did Christianity succeed in Korea but failed in Japan? - kainzero - 2012-09-06
dtcamero Wrote:does it never strike people as odd to see a thousand koreans in a western church praying to white jesus?reminds me of 21 jump street and korean jesus.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-CUxwnnrCTqs/T4WkCRhPUZI/AAAAAAAAD68/rdpxYBGOLIE/s1600/korean-jesus-21-jump-street.jpg
Why did Christianity succeed in Korea but failed in Japan? - ファブリス - 2012-09-06
@prink That was my hunch too, perhaps relevant:
2,500 marriages made in Moonie heaven: Couples from more than 50 countries tie the knot in mass South Korea ceremony
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2119753/Unification-Church-South-Korea-mass-wedding-2-500-marriages.html
Why did Christianity succeed in Korea but failed in Japan? - Aikynaro - 2012-09-07
The whole oppression thing no doubt helped, but that's not stopping anyone now from converting. I think it's just completely irrelevant to the average Japanese person's life. What is there to gain by converting to Christianity? There's no logical or practical need to believe in it, and there's no spiritual/emotional void for it to fill. There's no context for it - a Westerner might be convinced to believe and have several thousand years of history to back them up along with the general approval of the community - it doesn't exist in Japan. It's like if someone tried to convince you to worship Shiva - sure, it's all the rage in India, but ... y'know, there's nothing around you at all to back that up. Why would you?
Most of the people I've talked to here about religion are entirely ignorant about Christianity, and completely apathetic. There's nowhere for Christianity to gain a toehold because it has nothing to offer that they need. If they do have any needs that gain be serviced by religion, they have well-established alternatives that have widespread cultural backing.
From the very little I know about Christianity in Korea, it sounds dodgy as hell. Didn't something about top church members being busted gambling huge amounts of money make it into the news a while ago? It sounds kind of cult-ish ... but I don't really know the situation.
Quote:then i was annoyed by the hardcore christians outside meiji jingu on their megaphones telling me i'm going to go to hell and that the world will end.... and yeah, I'm not sure what they hope to gain by being obnoxious to everyone at Christmas. At least it seems to only be around then that they come out in swarms though to preach through their tape-recorders though (seriously, if you're going to preach, at least do it yourself rather than just standing there holding a set of speakers...)
Why did Christianity succeed in Korea but failed in Japan? - undead_saif - 2012-09-08
kainzero Wrote:i generally despise religion because the tenets and good will that it's supposed to promote become weapons of hate towards other religions.It's mostly because of religious people's bad interpretation and misuse and people with other agendas' exploitation of it.
From my experience, I think only about 5% of people understand the religion they follow, you can find some who are very knowledgeable in it but miss the whole point and interprets it badly.
I follow a religion, but I'm not really religious (follow less than the minimum of the 'orders') but for many times I've put a better logical argument (taken from the very same religion) in front of a 'religious' guy regarding something in the religion or related. To be honest, this is really annoying to see!
Whether it's Christianity or any other religion, the greater mass of followers' behavior nowadays isn't really affected directly by their belief, it's become a set of habits. Even most Japanese people celebrate Christmas while most of them aren't Christians, right?
And thanks guys for the links!
Why did Christianity succeed in Korea but failed in Japan? - saritza - 2012-09-08
I did research on religion in Japan for my senior thesis. I've also known a lot of Korean Christians (and one Japanese Christian!) That said I still don't really have a good answer, but I'm sure there are lots of articles about it. I've read that one could almost say that there IS a religion in Japan--the religion of being Japanese. There was a great deal of syncretism between Shinto and Buddhism before the Meiji period, and then there was actually an official "separation," so a lot of what we think of as Shinto today is stuff that was invented in the late 19th-early 20th century, not stuff deeply rooted in history (that's what my paper was about). A lot of what we think of as Buddhism is actually based on modern "reinventions" as well, though perhaps that's true of many religions?
I think I also read that the main reason Christianity was banned in the Edo period was because the Christian missionaries were giving people guns, and they outlawed firearms (they didn't want anyone but the samurais to have weapons).
I think what someone said previously about Koreans choosing Christianity as an alternative to the Japanese colonizers who were trying to make them worship the emperor is a good possibility as well.
Part of the hard thing about being Christian in Japan, I've heard, is that you can't participate is festivals and other cultural things that are really not religious at all but because they're vaguely tied to Buddhism/Shinto, as a Christian you're not supposed to. Apparently it sort of alienates you from the rest of society.
Why did Christianity succeed in Korea but failed in Japan? - vix86 - 2012-09-08
The reason why Christianity hasn't flourished in modern Japan is because it never took root in the past. Seriously, how many countries in the past century have assimilated a drastically different religion? I can't think of any off the top of my head. Many countries have had new religions brought in by immigrants, but you don't have very many countries converting current masses to a new religion, in this era.
The reason is pretty simple. Religions need time flourish (positively) within a society across a few generations before they become part of the culture. If they aren't part of the culture then they're really just growths on it that could easily fall off. Theres also the whole thing about the science revolution too past the 19th century which puts a damper on things. Its not like the past where you can waltz into a country and force or coerce them to convert to a new religion, which happened consistently throughout history. It was even tried in Japan as has been noted multiple times in this thread, and was cut off abruptly before it could have settled into the culture.
I do believe if it settled into Japan though, it'd still look vastly different from what we have today. Japan has a way of taking something and making it something new. As I seem to recall reading, they tried it back when scholars came and brought Christianity/Catholicism. They 'changed it' and made it slightly different. Different rites and what not, I believe. Word got back to the pope and the scholar that was here in Japan was reprimanded.
Why did Christianity succeed in Korea but failed in Japan? - SammyB - 2012-09-09
Aikynaro Wrote:I think it's just completely irrelevant to the average Japanese person's life. What is there to gain by converting to Christianity?I don't really understand why it's any more or less relevant to Japanese people than anyone else... What exactly is there to gain by converting to Christianity in "Western countries" that you wouldn't gain in Japan?
A sense of purpose, community involvement, friendship, moral guidelines, "forgiveness", "eternal life", etc. are all pretty meaningless to everyone (not just "the average Japanese person") if Christianity isn't true... Right?
I don't find your overall theory very convincing. I think a much simpler (but probably not popular) explanation is: there aren't more Christians in Japan because most people in Japan don't know what Christianity is, and have not personally had significant interactions with a Christian person.
Thus, an informed decision about whether to become a Christian or not is not even a decision that the vast majority of Japanese people will ever have to make.
Why did Christianity succeed in Korea but failed in Japan? - JimmySeal - 2012-09-09
SammyB Wrote:A sense of purpose, community involvement, friendship, moral guidelines, "forgiveness", "eternal life", etc. are all pretty meaningless to everyone (not just "the average Japanese person") if Christianity isn't true... Right?No, the first 4 can definitely be meaningful even if Christianity isn't true. And you're just twisting Akiynaro's words. S/he was talking about why Japanese people would or would not be drawn to Christianity based on the the purported benefits it has, not whether all of those benefits actually exist and present an actual value to anyone.
Quote:I don't really understand why it's any more or less relevant to Japanese people than anyone else... What exactly is there to gain by converting to Christianity in "Western countries" that you wouldn't gain in Japan?Because the west doesn't have many other institutions that fill the role that Christianity does. Akiynaro's hypothesis is that Japan already has those, hence Christianity's difficulty in getting a foothold.
Quote:I think a much simpler (but probably not popular) explanation is: there aren't more Christians in Japan because most people in Japan don't know what Christianity is, and have not personally had significant interactions with a Christian person.Ok, that's surely part of it, but if Christianity were such that it held a strong appeal to Japanese people, it would gradually spread from person to person. The reason they're not presented with that decision is because that diffusion hasn't taken place. It has done so in other parts of the world, in some cases surely on account of factors that made Christianity an appealing proposition to the people in those locations.
Thus, an informed decision about whether to become a Christian or not is not even a decision that the vast majority of Japanese people will ever have to make.