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Japanese: Finished vs Unfinished - Printable Version

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Japanese: Finished vs Unfinished - turvy - 2012-08-04

I read in the first page of JSL, which is free to download:
Quote:Finished vs unfinished is the significant contrast in Japanese, whereas English speakers tend to think in terms of three time distinctions: past, present, and future.
To me, this seems very relevant and useful and it's not the first time I read about it, however I can't recall where I was introduced to this idea before and I can't find anything that elaborates more on the idea and I'd like to know in more detail what it means. I think Chinese is the same and I guess so is Korean. Also, is this a trend in other Asian languages?

What do you think?

Japanese: Finished vs Unfinished - pen0id - 2012-08-04

re: other Asian languages, Philippines' capital region-imposed national language has past, present, and future tense.

Japanese: Finished vs Unfinished - kitakitsune - 2012-08-04

Korean has a future tense also.

Japanese: Finished vs Unfinished - RawrPk - 2012-08-04

pen0id Wrote:re: other Asian languages, Philippines' capital region-imposed national language has past, present, and future tense.
Tagalog right? Despite being born there (but raised in the US), I don't really know what the "national language" is. According to wiki it says Filipino so I'm confused. What is "Filipino" language? I thought it was a nationality.

lol sorry for straying off topic xD

Japanese: Finished vs Unfinished - yudantaiteki - 2012-08-05

turvy Wrote:I read in the first page of JSL, which is free to download:
Quote:Finished vs unfinished is the significant contrast in Japanese, whereas English speakers tend to think in terms of three time distinctions: past, present, and future.
To me, this seems very relevant and useful and it's not the first time I read about it, however I can't recall where I was introduced to this idea before and I can't find anything that elaborates more on the idea and I'd like to know in more detail what it means.
This is one of JSL's fundamental ideas. It proceeds fairly simply from a few observations:

1. Future and present are represented by the same conjugation (even if you add ている you're still using the "imperfective" or "unfinished" form). This is actually true in English as well, a fact that's often overlooked by native speakers. Note that to express future, you use the same conjugation of the verb as for present, but you add an auxiliary such as "will" or "going to" to express the future tense. The addition of such an auxiliary is mandatory in most dialects, though -- saying "Tomorrow I go to the store" isn't grammatical in most contexts.

Also note that in English, when other auxiliaries enter the picture the requirement to express future tense is often dropped entirely -- for instance, "I can go tomorrow" vs. "I can go today", or "I might go tomorrow" vs. "I might go today".

2. The "finished" form of the verb (i.e. 食べた, 行きました) can express past tense, but it doesn't have to. It can represent something that will be in the past relative to some other verb, as in 日本に行ったあとで、中国にも行きたい。 Sometimes this is described as "relative tense" and they still speak of the verb form as "past tense"; I think this is more confusing but that may be standard in linguistics.

Good luck with JSL; it's a tough read for anyone. As I've mentioned elsewhere, I taught grammar from the book for about 6 years and I've taught every lesson at least 3 times (sometimes a lot more than that) so I can hopefully answer any questions you might have.

Japanese: Finished vs Unfinished - turvy - 2012-08-05

yudantaiteki Wrote:2. The "finished" form of the verb (i.e. 食べた, 行きました) can express past tense, but it doesn't have to. It can represent something that will be in the past relative to some other verb, as in 日本に行ったあとで、中国にも行きたい。 Sometimes this is described as "relative tense" and they still speak of the verb form as "past tense"; I think this is more confusing but that may be standard in linguistics.
Well, this certainly matches the idea of a completed action vs. the past tense.

日本に行ったあとで、中国にも行きたい。
After going to Japan [is done] I want to go to China too.

Japanese: Finished vs Unfinished - Splatted - 2012-08-05

I don't see how point 2 is different from English either. Wouldn't it be perfectly fine to say "after I've been to Japan I also want to go to China"?

Japanese: Finished vs Unfinished - yudantaiteki - 2012-08-05

"have been" is not past tense, it's present perfect. I guess the "perfect" is like Japanese but you can't also use that form for past tense. "After I went to Japan, I want to go to China" is nonsense.

Japanese: Finished vs Unfinished - HonyakuJoshua - 2012-08-05

this is called "aspect" by semanticists like John Saeed.

Japanese: Finished vs Unfinished - Splatted - 2012-08-05

yudantaiteki Wrote:"have been" is not past tense, it's present perfect. I guess the "perfect" is like Japanese but you can't also use that form for past tense. "After I went to Japan, I want to go to China" is nonsense.
Oh, that makes a lot more sense now. Thanks a lot. Smile

Maybe this will help me finally get a grasp on Japanese tenses. XD

Japanese: Finished vs Unfinished - Inny Jan - 2012-08-05

Splatted Wrote:Maybe this will help me finally get a grasp on Japanese tenses. XD
Let me see if I can get it right, in English you have:
1) Future: simple future, future continuous, future perfect
2) Present: simple present, present continuous, present perfect, present perfect continuous
3) Past: simple past, past continuous, past perfect, past perfect continuous

So, what Japanese tenses are you talking about?

Japanese: Finished vs Unfinished - turvy - 2012-08-05

Finished action and unfinished action.

Japanese: Finished vs Unfinished - Splatted - 2012-08-05

I really can't be that specific, just た　form and う　form.

Japanese: Finished vs Unfinished - turvy - 2012-08-05

I am thinking of getting JSL eventually and figure this out.

Japanese: Finished vs Unfinished - yudantaiteki - 2012-08-05

Splatted Wrote:I really can't be that specific, just た　form and う　form.
JSL calls them "perfective" and "imperfective".

Japanese: Finished vs Unfinished - turvy - 2012-08-05

I think it's time for this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_aspect

Japanese: Finished vs Unfinished - HonyakuJoshua - 2012-08-05

i said that above.