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Adverse effects of RTK1? - Biene - 2007-11-22
I'm just curious if people here, who have successfully finished RTK1 and up, have experienced any negative effects by learning the Kanji with RTK1, so by learning them with the mnemonics.
There has been a discussion in a different forum about this, the forum is quite anti-RTK1 and most of the people against it either never gave the book a try or gave up very fast. One person though states to have finished RTK1 and RTK2 successfully, and is now living in Japan and not so happy with RTK anymore.
So now of course I'm curious about what people here think about this subject and if they experienced any difficulties of the stories getting in the way when dealing with reading or writing the Kanji.
Adverse effects of RTK1? - Nukemarine - 2007-11-22
Could you give a link to that discussion?
However, ponder this one thing: how many will continue to frequent this or some other learning site after they've become proficient in the area? For now, we're climbing the mountain, how many that have climbed it stick around here to comment the best method to use?
Granted a handful here are taking the JLPT 2, they're probably a good group to ask.
Adverse effects of RTK1? - leosmith - 2007-11-22
The Chinese kids in my intensive course get annoyed that I don't study and still beat them in the daily kanji tests.
Let me take a wild stab and say "The Japanese Page". There are some good resources there, but the forum is controlled by a group of, for lack of a better word, trolls.
Adverse effects of RTK1? - jondesousa - 2007-11-22
leosmith Wrote:The Chinese kids in my intensive course get annoyed that I don't study and still beat them in the daily kanji tests.Leo, it is awesome that they get frustrated that you are beating them!!! Ganbatte!!!
Let me take a wild stab and say "The Japanese Page". There are some good resources there, but the forum is controlled by a group of, for lack of a better word, trolls.
I agree with your second comment too. I have seen several people from this forum post something on RTK1 over there and the moderators come out with their whips and chains for a good beatdown. Interestingly, I haven't seen any of them say that they have finished the program and it stinks. They all say that they "tried" it and the program stinks.
It's too bad considering most of us don't bash their method on their site. They should be more open to other ideas as not everyone likes to learn the same way.
Have a Happy Thanksgiving to those in the US.
Adverse effects of RTK1? - Biene - 2007-11-22
Sorry, but I don't think a link will help, since the language in that forum is German.
Though I should have formulated it differently: the comment about possible adverse effects was dropped in one of the many Kanji-learning-threads, and by a person who says to have finished RTK1&2.
Whenever you mention that you try to learn the Kanji with Heisig... well, you better cover your ears. I personally don't mind if people tell me to be careful with a "wondermethod", and offer possible alternatives if the way I choose turns out to be wrong for me, but I dislike it when they assume they have the authority to make my choices for me...
The old threads there show that they were quite open-minded to the method when the German version was first published, but I guess since then they have heard a lot of praise from people who then gave up and never finished the book.
But back to the topic here... I don't think that most people who learned with this side suddenly just vanish after finishing RTK1&2. At least not after Fabien offered the possibility to also review RTK3 here. So I wouldn't know of a better place to ask this question.
PS: I'm glad I found this side long before the German forum or others like it, otherwise I wouldn't have given RTK1 the slightest off chances. Even though I can't be sure to finish it, I'm at the moment quite happy how it works.
Adverse effects of RTK1? - ファブリス - 2007-11-22
Biene Wrote:So now of course I'm curious about what people here think about this subject and if they experienced any difficulties of the stories getting in the way when dealing with reading or writing the Kanji.That's a point often mentionned about the method. If stories get in the way my hunch is that visual memory didn't take over yet. Which means the learner hasn't been exposed to enough written input yet. Do you ever think of the meaning of characters in kyou? konkai? (sorry, no IME here); most likely not, or very seldom.
I think the issue here is that RtK is a method where you learn ALL kanji at once, after which the most logical approach is to learn to read ALL of those kanji (RtK2); at which point you are like an english learner faced with an almost phonetic language (to keep things simple) : grammar, vocab. However in Japanese that wall is so steep, and takes so long, that frustration sets in long before learners can start getting tons of input.
What I'm trying to say here, is RtK1's logic needs to be pursued to the end. And by the echoes here and other forums, it looks like few people go to complete RtK2 afterwards. But if you don't pursue through RtK2 or a similar method (loads and loads of vocab for ex to cover all those kanji), then it logically comes that you will be faced with un-readable kanji for a long time, and all this time your visual memory will not be able to take over. So all this time, you will have stories and mnemonics "get in the way".
That's my theory. Hope it makes sense.
It also comes logically that learners who restrict themselves to a limited set of characters through textbooks, will not be exposed to the frustrations that we can experience, since they are using "factored" material which only exposes known characters. Hence their visual memory for those limited set of vocab can start taking over, since they learn the reading at the same time.
Biene Wrote:One person though states to have finished RTK1 and RTK2 successfully, and is now living in Japan and not so happy with RTK anymore.If that's the case, and that's in German, and you are German(?) then why not post his arguments, otherwise there isn't much to comment. I'm curious as to what makes him/her unhappy after completing the first two volumes.
Adverse effects of RTK1? - sheetz - 2007-11-22
leosmith Wrote:There are some good resources there, but the forum is controlled by a group of, for lack of a better word, trolls.I think the correct word is academics.
Adverse effects of RTK1? - dingomick - 2007-11-22
Nothing adverse for me. But as Fabrice notes, I have <plenty> of those 2042 kanji that I have not been exposed to enough to move to visual memory and still rely on stories for.
On the other hand, I'm taking 3kyuu in a week and I simply breeze through the kanji section. After RTK, the options they give as multiple choice options are laughable. But I remember that before RTK, 4 options of very similar looking kanji blasted a kanji I "knew" right out of my mind. (>_<)
Several of my other friends I got hooked on RTK are taking 2kyuu next week, which lacks all furigana for kanji. They can't praise the method enough for what's its done for their Japanese, especially for figuring out compounds they don't know. I'd say that's endorsement enough at an advanced enough level to counter and "adverse effect" claims.
So what is this RTK1,2 finisher saying that RTK has affected negatively...?
Adverse effects of RTK1? - Magnadoodle - 2007-11-22
I wonder how RTK could affect you negatively. Sure, the first time you see a kanji used in a word, you will have to try to recall the story, so that will be very slow, but once you see it a few times, you'll recognize it instantly.
The only problem with RTK is that you won't benefit too much from it if your level is not at least JLPT3. As Fabrice said, textbooks will limit themselves to a certain subset of kanji. So you'll probably tend to either forget the others or at least not be able to recall them quickly. That's why I'm a bit hesitant to recommend RTK to complete beginners, unless they tend to also rush through other parts of the language.
I'm studying for 2kyuu (not for this year though) and can definitely attest to the benefits of RTK. I went from a state of desperation about all the kanjis to a point where I consider them helpful in learning new words.
Adverse effects of RTK1? - Jarvik7 - 2007-11-22
I think the people who have bad experiences with RTK are probably studying with a poor method. RTK is really just the study materials, you have to figure out an effective study method on your own, which is pretty much different for every person. It seems many of them haven't read the forward either.
I can't think of any adverse effects you'd have from learning using RTK. The stories and keywords are just a way to get the characters into your head permanently. You should be getting beyond the mnemonic over time and just know the characters intuitively. The end result should be the same as with using any other method, except you get there a lot faster. Maybe some people lack practice and thus always just see the keywords when trying to read...
The only valid (in my opinion) criticisms of RTK I've seen is that you don't learn the readings, and it isn't ordered by how common the kanji is. Thus you basically have to finish the whole book and then rtk2 (or other method) to achieve literacy. People who have tried other books and move slowly with them might think RTK is similarly slow moving, thus significantly delaying partial literacy over other methods.
Adverse effects of RTK1? - billyclyde - 2007-11-22
After the discussion on Tae Kim's blog, I only want to listen to anti-RTK arguments from people:
1) who have finished it;
2) who have some functional level of Japanese (3Kyuu+, intermediate or so)
Most of the arguments seem to come from people who haven't needed RTK; who accept the dogma of their teachers about kanji learning; who barely know Japanese.
Now, that's for ANTI-Rtk arguments; open, honest discussion, that's another thing.
Also, my back has been sore, but otherwise, no adverse effects.
Adverse effects of RTK1? - _Qbe_ - 2007-11-22
leosmith Wrote:Let me take a wild stab and say "The Japanese Page". There are some good resources there, but the forum is controlled by a group of, for lack of a better word, trolls.And that's ironic, because Clay (who runs The Japanese Page and The Japan Shop) doesn't share that attitude.
I've fought the Heisig battle on TJP several times too, and have long since given up. I'd rather hang out on forums where the members are more open-minded, mature, and interested in learning Japanese than talking about learning it. One big lesson I've learned lately is that it's a language, not a religion, and there is no One True Way. If it works for you, use it. If not, don't.
Leo, didn't we meet up in an argument with one of those "academics" who insisted that Heisig forbids you from learning any Japanese until you've completed RTK1 and RTK2? I think I remember it now (and am too lazy to search for it on TJP)--he insisted that the book "implicitly forbids" learning Japanese. When I gave a quote from RTK2 that explicitly expects you to know some Japanese by the time you reach RTK2, he ignored it and changed the subject. Ugh. I haven't been back since. Some of those guys really demonstrate the axiom that winning an argument on the internet is like winning first place...in the Special Olympics. There's little value in participating in arguments like that; your time is better spent actually learning.
In any case, I suspect that the strongest, most religious opponents to RTK are those who a) have never tried it, b) have tried it but never completed it, and/or c) have invested considerable time and effort in learning via the "traditional" methods and resent the idea that anyone could learn them more quickly. So far every Heisig-hater I've seen has fallen into one or more of those categories.
Adverse effects of RTK1? - alantin - 2007-11-22
I would be quite happy with a link to a german kanji learning forum!
I'm taking German classes in school and having something interesting that I could try to read would be great.
Adverse effects of RTK1? - Nukemarine - 2007-11-22
For some of the comments on this thread:
Critics that tried and did not finish: I think criticism from those that tried and did not finish is valid SO LONG as they post that is the case with them (and the amount they tried). Let's face it, if you're getting stuck at 256, why keep trying to go on as you're either doing something wrong or the method does not work for you. With that can come a critique.
Visual Memory: From the start, the Kanji keyword should invoke the visual memory. Going off mnemonics then hoping for the visual to kick in will mean you get a 9 failure, 2 pass rate on a seemingly simple card ("approval" in my case).
Long Term problem: For me, I think it would be attaching a wrong meaning (through misinterpreting the keyword) to a kanji. It's easy to do with Heisig as he uses obscure English words and words with multiple meaning (yeah, like Japanese doesn't have that issue).
TJP: I like their My Way or the Highway approach to discussion. I like that when they look at success from any other approach, it's because of everything BUT that approach. One guy said Heisig was already fluent and lived in Japan a long time when he developed his method. Another commented on AJATT saying that Katsumoto had Japanese friends. But if you then comment that using said excuses should work to learn Japanese, you get another big negatory. Fascinating group of.....Academics?
Adverse effects of RTK1? - vosmiura - 2007-11-22
I'm only about 75% through RTK1, but I'm already seeing the huge benefit from it. Its so much easier to pick up new words when you know the RTK keywords, and I find that recognising the characters gets fast quickly if you're exposed to them.
I watch Japanese TV and I'm always impressed by how well I can recognise the kanji in captions that I've learned. I can usually tell right away if a kanji is one I learned or not, and most don't take long to recall the keyword, and it just gets faster every time.
Adverse effects of RTK1? - Biene - 2007-11-22
Gosh, how to answer to all this input?
Let's see... I searched in that forum a bit more for said user and found all together three different posts concerning (more or less) RTK1. The user unfortunately hasn't looged in (and neither have others who state to have finished RTK1 too) to the forum for some time now, so I'm still waiting for an answer to my questions.
Ok first post was stating he/she finished RTK1 and together with other bookes learned the readings for the 2000+ but had only 50% of them active after a year. He/she (...let's just assume it's a he to safe time...) also states that might be due to the fact that he doesn't read too difficult books and that the e-mails he gets from Japanese friends have quite often more Kana in them then Kanji.
Then in 2007 he states that it's a waste of time to learn with RTK since the Kanji don't stick in the longtime memory.
And later it almost sounds as if he never learned with the book.... and get's quite bitchy towards the coauthor of the German RTK1 (who happened to try and explain a few things and answered to some honest questions, in a really nice though quite stiff manner), and tries to point out non-existing errors in the German version, (e.g. "skip" and "jump" are the same, thus that there is the same meaning for two different Kanji).
Quote:ファブリス wrote:Well, it does make sense to me!
What I'm trying to say here, is RtK1's logic needs to be pursued to the end. And by the echoes here and other forums, it looks like few people go to complete RtK2 afterwards. But if you don't pursue through RtK2 or a similar method (loads and loads of vocab for ex to cover all those kanji), then it logically comes that you will be faced with un-readable kanji for a long time, and all this time your visual memory will not be able to take over. So all this time, you will have stories and mnemonics "get in the way".
That's my theory. Hope it makes sense.
So it's more or less the same as with learning to read when you are a kid. You have to parctice your newly learned skills again and again to get fluent in them and stop using your finger and reading "T-H-E" "D-O-G"... otherwise you'll loos it and become illiterate again. Yes, sounds resonable to me.
The picture that I get from all the answers is, that there are no adverse effects (except for sore backs) #when# you continue to work with the learned Kanji, and use them. So more or less like with any foreign language you try to learn...
Any worries put to rest, thanks a lot to everyone. And I have to admit, that the negative attitude on that forum just encourages me even more to try and finish RTK1 (...and RTK2...and someday who knows maybe even RTK3...). I guess that means back to work for me.
@alantin: http://20718.rapidforum.com/
But be aware, that some there can get a quite negative attitude towards you when you state that you're using RTK1. Oh, and of course the German is not always perfect, even though they try.
@Nukemarine:
Damn, I wanted to point out that tread on TJP about Heisig living in Japan long before developing his method.
Ehm, sorry for the long post...
Adverse effects of RTK1? - Jarvik7 - 2007-11-22
If he only had 50% after a year, it's pretty clear he wasn't reviewing. He closed the book after the last page and never opened it up again. Point him at an srs.
Adverse effects of RTK1? - Floatingweed5 - 2007-11-22
RTK1 is a small step in a much larger process. I view learning the kanji with RTK1 as comparable to learning the alphabet. You are not going to learn any words by the end, but that's not the intention. Even the keywords are disposable (in fact, I believe that the keywords should be left behind as soon as possible after their usefulness as markers has been overcome).
For me, the real benefit of RTK is that Japanese script changes from being a jumble of unrecognizable characters to a jumble of well known characters - even those which would otherwise be very complicated or very hard to differentiate. I know this doesn't sound like much but it brings a remarkable change. Kanji change from being alien and unfriendly and instead become familiar and comforting.
To put this in context: about 6 months ago I had reached a stage in my studies where Kanji were increasingly becoming more and more of an obstacle in my learning (somewhere roughly between JLPT 3 and 4). The textbook I was using was introducing new kanji at an increasing rate and I was finding it difficult to keep up. So I put all other studies on hold for 6 months and will complete RTK1 by Christmas.
Currently at the 1500-1600 mark, I can recognize nearly all of the Kanji in my textbook and it's a real JOY to see the characters spring to life in the texts. After christmas I will continue with my textbook as before and at the same level as before (probably at a slightly lower level due to my break), but with a huge barrier removed.
RTK is a very useful tool, but it must be used as part of a wider learning framework.
Adverse effects of RTK1? - aircawn - 2007-11-22
There might be a case against RTK in that one might automatically substitute kanji for English keyword when reading Japanese text, rather than taking a step back and trying to grok the (lofty and ever evasive) meaning that English can't capture.
I mean, at least once I've subconciously read fee-logic and thought to myself "What in f...?" Even though 料理 was a word that I was quite farmiliar with by then.
Jarvik7 raises a point... how useful can RTK1 be without the aid of an SRS? I know considering it's original publishing date that some would have had to have some success without an SRS, but it seems to me that it is such a natural companion to any type of learning that I'm surprised people still try without one.
When I first started RTK I ended up writing by own program to do this for me before I realised what I was doing:
a) had a name
b) had already been done.
Adverse effects of RTK1? - JimmySeal - 2007-11-22
I was going along quite well with RTK1 using flashcards and a learning box, though it's strange that he doesn't mention anything of that nature in RTK (he did in Remembering the Katakana).
There are SRSes that don't require computers.
Quote:it seems to me that it is such a natural companion to any type of learning that I'm surprised people still try without one.Many people have yet to be alerted to the existence of SRS.
Adverse effects of RTK1? - laner36 - 2007-11-22
Case in point, I learned what an SRS was from this site. (Thanks again Fabrice!)
Adverse effects of RTK1? - johnzep - 2007-11-22
Adverse effects? Sounds like a pharmaceutical commercial:
"RTK is not for everyone. Talk to you doctor if you are nursing, pregnant, or might become pregnant. Side effects of RTK include headaches, nausea, loose stools, and drowsiness. Seek immediate medical help if you experience blurry vision or acute abdominal pain as these may be signs of a serious medial problem."
Adverse effects of RTK1? - dingomick - 2007-11-22
Wow, lots of discussion. I agree with everything so I won't reiterate much.
1. An SRS is a necessity for anyone expecting long-term retention of any information of hundreds or thousands of bits.
2. I have no problem with peopling not finding RTK useful AFTER they have <thoroughly> read his introduction and tried at least the first 300-500. Everyone has different learning methods, but I have come to see it as a fact over the past year that the single largest "complaint" against RTK is that people don't know how to use visual memory effectively, thus have no practice, and sputter to a halt in frustration because they never took the focused effort to learn how it works. This National Geographic article I mentioned in another post is a fascinating insight into memory and notes that visual memory has been the favored method of memory feats for thousands(!) of years.
3. It's true that 'old school' kanji learners resent RTK. I'm on JET and there is one CIR in particular who <despises> me as a person because I preach RTK and have gotten lots of other people to love it too. "It's bullshit! It doesn't teach you an kanji!" It's so vehement I really pity the guy...
Adverse effects of RTK1? - johnzep - 2007-11-22
I looked at the TJP...It's funny because many of the things people complain about for heisig are present on this traditional kanji learning site.
Consider this page: http://www.thejapanesepage.com/kanji/kanji.php?kanji_id=494
It has a mnemonic...although it is pretty weak:
The Japanese Page Wrote:Notes/MnemonicSo two of the most common complaints about heisig are:
尉 (military rank) ＋ 心 (heart, feelings) ＝慰
Mnemonic: Give feelings of comfort and consolation to those of low rank
1. Cluttering one's head with stories.
2. Associating kanji to english keywords is bad
But this site has both of those "negatives". Of course, since it has a lists of readings, all is forgiven!
I could write the kanji, recognize it, and understand its meaning since I have finished RTK1. And after 5 seconds on the site, I learned the on-reading and an example word.
So now by traditional standards I "know this kanji", but I'm sure if I were to total up the time I spent learning this kanji via RTK...plus the 5 seconds it took to cram the reading into my head...I'm sure I spent less time on it than a traditional kanji student.
Adverse effects of RTK1? - Jarvik7 - 2007-11-23
dingomick Wrote:3. It's true that 'old school' kanji learners resent RTK. I'm on JET and there is one CIR in particular who <despises> me as a person because I preach RTK and have gotten lots of other people to love it too. "It's bullshit! It doesn't teach you an kanji!" It's so vehement I really pity the guy...I don't know if you've finished RTK, but if you have you should challenge him to a kanji-off to shut him up. Something like "who can write the most characters with the 金 radical", or get a third party to pick random kanji from the jouyou list and see who gets stumped first. Of course, if you beat him he'll only despise you more
Even when I was just beginning with RTK I beat some Japanese people at the radical type game I mentioned above, as well as another game where you have to add 1 stroke to 日 to make a variety of different kanjis. It really is a testament to the Heisig system where we can not only recall the proper writing for kanjis, but can also think of kanjis that match a certain type of shape better than (at least some) Japanese natives. It sounds like the guy at your work is bitter that he had to work so hard and long using traditional rote memorization, and maybe not aware that RTK1 is just one half of the system.