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New Here...Question on Organization/Schedule - Gamerchick1 - 2007-11-20
I've been interested in learning Japanese for quite some time now. I started with buying Japanese For Dummies as it was the only thing I could find locally. It didn't help me at all. So after much research online, I've ordered Remembering The Kana, RTK1, and the Genki 1 series (text, workbook, cds, answer key). I'm thinking after reading through many many posts here, my plan is to start with The Kana, then RTK1, then the Genki, and Tae Kim's site (maybe together?)
My question mainly is, if you were starting over from scratch knowing what you all know now, is this the order you would have preferred? How much overlapping do you do and how successful are you with it?
I'm concerned I'll lose focus. As much as I want to learn this material, I have ADHD to contend with and sometimes I lose. Is it possible to start the Genki book during the RTK1? Or will I have a harder time moving the info to long term memory?
Thanks in advance for any input.
New Here...Question on Organization/Schedule - dingomick - 2007-11-20
This is my opinion from my Essential Resources thread:
My Hindsight Recommended Course to Learning Japanese:
Foundation (in this order):
Hiragana/Katakana Your basis for all Japanese to come. NO ROMAJI!
Heisig 1 It takes a while, but it solves what most consider the largest hurdle to Japanese
Pimsleur Listening Excellent introduction of essential Japanese through drilled listening/speaking
Tae Kim's Grammar Japanese explained from the inside
Vocab Building & Application (in any order/combination):
Vocab Drilling (Meguro JLPT Resources)
Heisig 2
A text (JFE, Minna Nihongo)
Reading (manga, children's newspaper, etc)
Writing (journal, Mixi, etc)
Listening (TV, radio, podcasts, etc)
Speaking (partner, exchange)
I've been living in Japan for over 2 years now. The only truly serious study I had done was the kana and basic vocab and grammar in the beginning, and RTK and Pimsleur at the beginning of this year. I've started studying in earnest for the JLPT just within the last 2 months. With this foundation behind my current studying my Japanese is exploding, especially vocabulary thanks to Pimsleur.
I of course recommend my pattern above, which I wish I would have known before I started. But any daily dedicated study will eventually get you where you want to go, though the travel time may be different.
New Here...Question on Organization/Schedule - aircawn - 2007-11-20
When I started RTK1, I already knew the kana. And yeah, I think that knowing the kana early is really good value, because it's the basis for everything else.
Gamerchick1 Wrote:Is it possible to start the Genki book during the RTK1?My personal opinion is if you limit your kanji studies to RTK, then you can do anything else at the same time (kana / Genki / Tae Kim / whatever), as long as you have the time for it.
I don't know much about ADHD so I can't really comment on that, and I guess you'd the one who knows best how to manage it, but RTK1 is a lot of work. Very rewarding in the end but can take months to complete.
Good luck!
New Here...Question on Organization/Schedule - synewave - 2007-11-20
Losing focus isn't unique to people with ADHD
Bookwise it looks like you'll be set.
You didn't mention in your post, but thinking about exactly why you want to learn Japanese may well help keeping you focussed.
New Here...Question on Organization/Schedule - dingomick - 2007-11-21
Yes, WHY you want to learn will determine a lot of WHAT you should study. Book reviews and forums are rife with complaints from people because they either,
1. bought into something far beyond their desired effort and intended use (people doing RTK who want 'conversational' Japanese and/or don't intend to pursue Japanese as a long-term interest), or
2. bought into something that was too simplistic and shallow when they wanted something meaty (many of the mainstream "Learn Japanese" textbooks and websites out there serious students waste time and money on).
It sounds as if you're serious about study, so that should keep you focused through RTK. I recommend as intensive an attack as possible to finish RTK quickly. It's not a project you can start and stop easily.
I don't think it hurts your learning at all to mix other studying with RTK. However, it does hurt your progress on RTK and delays the greater benefits of having RTK completed. It's the stereotype of any beginning student wanting to tackle the "cool" stuff before the basics. Only afterwards, as was my case, do you realize how important those basics were and how you wished you would have focused and completed them earlier.
New Here...Question on Organization/Schedule - johnzep - 2007-11-21
I think it is ok to learn some other japanese while doing RTK. But I would keep it simple. I think it would be odd to know 2000 kanji, but not be able to count to ten or ask "how old are you?" But at the same time, you don't want to take too much time away from RTK.
I'm looking at chapter one of my textbook "minna no nihongo"...which from my understanding is similar in style and quality to the genki books you bought. And I think it is exemplary of the pitfalls to avoid. Namely, the grammar is very simple: "How old are you?" "I am Mike" "Are you a student?". However, some of the kanji are relatively complex. A few choice examples from the chapter one vocab list: 何歳、病院、 韓国、銀行、電気.
learning how to say "hospital" 病院 (byouin) is great, but if you try to memorize the kanji via brute force it will be difficult and inefficient. Trust me, I know from first hand experience. So my advice is to learn simple words and grammar, and save any and all kanji effort for RTK
New Here...Question on Organization/Schedule - dingomick - 2007-11-21
Yes, like johnzep said. (^_^) You should study basic Japanese while you do RTK, but not at the expense of RTK.
An excellent option to mix with RTK is Pimsleur. It gets you through lots of very basic, but very useful phrases and grammar and avoids kanji all together since it's listening and speaking. It's the perfect companion for the beginning student while you commute (but be sure to speak! Don't do it if you ride the train and are embarrassed to repeat after the tape).
The one rule you can't bend is to learn the kana now. Take a week or two to get them down solid before even looking at anything else. :mad:
New Here...Question on Organization/Schedule - billyclyde - 2007-11-21
Everyone is spot-on about the motivation. Why do you want to learn? Are you in an area where you will have a chance to interact with native speakers and other learners, or will it be a more solitary pursuit? Is it to read, or to move to Japan?
You can tweak your approach depending on those goals, but whatever you do, I think the dual foundation should be reading and listening. Everything else will fall into place as your brain gets conditioned by this dual input.
That said, my one wish is that I had put EVERYTHING else on hold for 2 or 3 months and done Heisig straight through back when I started studying several years ago, even before anything else. If you don't need to speak right away, you'll get WAY more value from Heisig than any other textbook-- you won't be anywhere near being able to read simple news articles, for instance, after finishing the Genki books, even if you know the grammar. Heisig won't get you really reading, either, but you will at least know all the characters and be able MUCH more quickly to learn the words and figure out the grammar.
You'll make satisfying progress more naturally (and quickly), and it also makes a nice gut-check as to your habits: when it's just you, the book, and the SRS, you get a really good since of what tricks you'll play on yourself to avoid studying. Then you can correct them and speed along.
(I also wish I had stopped spending money on textbooks and picked up native-language materials instead. At this point I will never buy a language book again, unless it's the Green Goddess!)
New Here...Question on Organization/Schedule - vosmiura - 2007-11-21
Probably like most who have studied RTK, I wish that I could have found and studied RTK 1st thing years ago, but I think that if I did then I wouldn't have had the motivation to finish it. Its a paradox like that
.If I were you, I would start by learning the kana and doing a few chapters of Genki before jumping into RTK.
I think its worth getting a taste of Japanese language from a good textbook before setting off in RTK so you can start to get the big picture of where kana & kanji fit in with the language, and practice your kana reading before learning kanji.
While it would be a great ideal to learn all RTK Kanji before starting to study the rest of the language, I think it is too big a task to undertake all on its own from the very beginning, unless you're very dedicated. IMO you've got to love Japanese before starting RTK
. Its going to take 200+ hours of effort to finish RTK1.As soon as you're ready for it though, do study RTK1. Kanji is super useful to get far in Japanese, and this book will also teach you a lot about memorising languages in general.
New Here...Question on Organization/Schedule - Gamerchick1 - 2007-11-21
Thank you all for the responses!
I think I?m going to start with the order I mentioned, and see how well I can overlap things. I don?t want to jeopardize the ability to retain any of the information or the process of moving it from short term to long term memory by overlapping. I also know though that I have difficulties doing one thing at a time, and like most people need to see some sort of progress. I?m afraid of getting too restless with only one topic at hand. Doing my BS online I found I did better in concentrating when I worked on 2 papers at the same time so I could switch when I got restless. I?m hoping I?ll find a groove kind of like that.
I don?t have any ideas about being fluent in 6 months or anything like that; I hope to learn a new language for life. I?d like to be decently fluent at some point, but I?m not in too much of a rush if it means doing things right and actually retaining the skill.
As for listening, with 2 kids and the holidays coming it?s going to be quite some time before I can think about Pimsleur. I have the Instant Immersion set which has about 12 audio CDs and a couple of CD ROMs. I like that they don?t slow down the pronunciation (as far as I can tell), but I?m not going to get far solely on that. I?ve ripped the first CD to my Palm so I can listen and repeat with headphones as I get stuff done around the house (my kids think it?s pretty funny).
Thank you for encouragement too! I can?t wait to get started. I skimmed a bit of the preview for RTK1, but love books so much I wanted to wait until I had it in my hands to actually read it.
New Here...Question on Organization/Schedule - shaydwyrm - 2007-11-21
Japanesepod101.com is another good source of audio learning materials, and is less boring than pimsleur (though also less well-structured). Also, the lessons are "bite-sized", around 10-15 minutes.
Edit: it's also free!
New Here...Question on Organization/Schedule - _Qbe_ - 2007-11-21
I started learning Japanese as a hobby in 2004. About a year ago I was diagnosed with moderately-severe ADHD. Since then I've been figuring out how it's affected my life in general and language learning in specific. I'd like to do some writing about ADHD and language learning, but (unfortunately and/or typically) never quite get around to doing it.
You'll certainly want to consider how your ADHD affects your learning style; if you try to follow an approach that doesn't fit or that overloads you, you're going to have a difficult time. Many ADHD people have trouble shifting direction; others have trouble staying focused on one thing at a time; and many of us have both traits. (And some of us talk/write too much
)Personally, I have difficulty doing one single thing all the time (and completing anything). I need variety, I need practicality and I need fairly quick results. As much as I'd love to devote 2-3 hours per day solely to RTKanji (and nothing else) until I finish, I can't: I'd quit after a week. Ok, after 2 days.
Japanese has been my only hobby (almost) for the last 3 years, to the surprise of my wife who knows that my interests come and go. But learning Japanese suits my brain: I get a variety of experience (audio lessons, doramas, textbooks, conversation, music). Whether I have an hour or 3 minutes or am driving the car I can find some way to get some Japanese, and that learning process feels good. It's the drug that's kept me going.
Variety also gives you lots of repetition from a range of sources, which is good if your brain likes to see/make connections. If I see/hear something 3 different times from 3 different sources, I learn it more quickly than 3 times from the same source. Some days I study my textbook, some days I look at a Japanese magazine, some days I read a grammar dictionary, and some days all of them. If you haven't read it already, check out http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/. It'll really give you some ideas.
When I started Japanese, Remembering the Kana really suited me. I was playing Shenmue on my Dreamcast and wanted to read the signs in Dobuita. With RTKana I was able to learn the hiragana in 3 hours on a Saturday and immediately use it, then learn the katakana in 2 hours on Sunday. Practical, quick results. Good, good stuff.
I also started with Pimsleur. When I heard the first conversation in the first lesson, I knew I'd never continue with Japanese: I'd never be able to understand that stuff. After repeating words and phrases for 30 minutes (or so), I DID understand it and it was like magic. Practical, quick results, variety of inputs. The repetition really helped drill a core of Japanese into my head, the lessons were short enough to keep my interest but long enough to be relevant (japanesepod101 didn't work for me) Check your local library; maybe you can borrow Pimsleur to use on your iPod.
A good textbook will fit and support your learning style. I've been enjoying Japanese for Everyone because it has a lot of variety, a lot of content, a lot of exercises, clearly-defined vocabulary lists, and it's challenging. I can work on it for 10 minutes and learn something new; I can always find vocabulary lists to write down and carry with me for memorization.
Finding conversation partners and a local conversation group was a very good thing for me too. Again, variety. Practicality: I could practice my Japanese on real people. And as a telecommuter, I didn't get out of the house much; the conversation group helped me get out and meet new people once in a while.
RTKanji, on the other hand, has been a problem for me. The first few chapters really suited me--learning new things, variety--and I bought the book immediately. But over and over again I've worked at the book for a while, then my brain would get overloaded and I'd stop. A few weeks/months later, start from the beginning, make a little more progress, die. I'm on iteration 5 now. Setting a consistent schedule hasn't helped; it's turning into something I just have to pound away at. I've been tempted to look into other methods--maybe that dreaded combination of form PLUS readings PLUS meanings PLUS compounds would give me the variety I'd need to keep going.
It's important to recognize that your learning style is not the same as anyone else's. As the ancients liked to say, "Know thyself". Be patient with yourself, cut yourself slack when you need to, and don't be afraid to shift direction if the current one isn't working. Sometimes everyone else may seem to be having great success with a particular technique or resource, everyone else may seem to be progressing at light speed, and you're not (and sometimes the converse may appear to be true).
But you're not in a race to learn Japanese. Real life will intrude sometimes, and sometimes your own traits will pull you in other directions. My own experiences have taught me that it's much better to go with the flow and enjoy the journey than to worry about my lack of progress and/or forgetfulness. Stay in touch with your source of motivation; keep reminding yourself why you're learning. Try a variety of resources to see what works for you. Try them all at once if you'd like. Consistency is a good thing: once you find a good path for yourself, find a way to stick with it: a set time every day, a study partner, a deadline, a challenge, or whatever works for you. Keep at it, and you'll get where you want to go.
And that applies to anyone, ADHD or not. I started this with the intention of giving you some insight on ADHD-specific challenges to learning Japanese, but ultimately you just need to do the same as everyone else: figure out what works for you and keep doing it.
New Here...Question on Organization/Schedule - lankydan - 2007-11-21
Spoken Japanese is the hardest aspect of the language. If you can't comprehend spoken Japanese IN ITS WRITTEN FORM and unable to WRITE what you want to say in Japanese, then you'll have no chance of understanding what people are saying and how to speak the language.
Gamerchick1, I would start with RTK1 before moving onto the other side of Japanese. You've got the luxury of having a copy of the book (I worked through a Henshall guide after traversing Part 1 of RTK1), so it shouldn't be a problem to get through, the order of the kanji is carefully laid out. Spoken Japanese is the hardest aspect, and if you want to be able to speak the language, then it is important that you know how to write because speaking is so much more difficult. Also, you could get the person you're speaking Japanese with to write down what he/she is saying to you and see how you would to it. For me, I watch a vast majority Anime and can only comprehend a tiny bit of it, but when I read the Manga, it's far easier to understand, as it is all written down.
Billyclyde's question, "why do you want to learn?" I enjoy the written language so that I can write Japanese poems and essays (my English ones aren't very good though).
By the way, does anyone know any books for grammar, ones that haven't been covered in Tae Kim's guide, and Japanese Poetry, comprehension of Japanese texts? If I have to go through basic grammar any more, I'll be on the verge of yielding a flag.
New Here...Question on Organization/Schedule - Magnadoodle - 2007-11-21
Quote:Spoken Japanese is the hardest aspect of the languageThat's not necessarily true. Before I started RTK, my spoken Japanese was much better than my written Japanese as I knew few kanjis. It depends on how much conversation practice you were able to get and how many kanjis you know. Conversation goes faster, but you don't have to be able to read kanji.
Anyway, I think there's good advice in this thread. There's no one magical approach to Japanese. You can start with RTK if you're motivated, but keep in mind that it's quite involving. I would personally start with Genki as it's more laid back and you won't be using much of the RTK kanjis until a little while anyway.
New Here...Question on Organization/Schedule - billyclyde - 2007-11-22
_Qbe_, thanks for posting that-- your perspective as a person learning with ADHD has offered me a lot of good food for thought.
---
By the way, Lankydan, I'm convinced that virtually all the J-grammar books in Western languages are basically, well, basic. Two exceptions: The Dictionary Intermediate Japanese Grammar is good, but it's a dictionary, not a coursebook; and "Making Sense of Japanese" has a good chapter on decoding long Japanese sentences, which helped open up written texts for me (I prefer texts to manga for learning, personal taste). Also, I have always heard good things about Eleanor Harz Jordan's "Japanese: the Spoken Language" and "Japanese: the Written Language," though I have never used either.
Other than that, all the intermediate and high-intermediate to advanced grammar textbooks are written in Japanese. There are a lot, too.
I have the New Approach books, the blue & red ones (http://nihongo-net.jp/). Both have ten chapters, each with an essay focusing on certain grammar points (in GREAT detail, perhaps too much), and CDs of readings for each essay. Unlike most CDs, these are actually listenable without causing aneurysms. I also like the UNICOM JLPT grammar books, though they focus on single sentences. Tae Kim mentioned jgram.org in his list-- the Unicom books follow a similar format, but are more extensive, mistake-free, and have easy-to-understand explanations in Japanese.
Japanese poetry, hmmm. I'd like to know more about it-- I have a xerox of [kana]SARADA KINENBI[/kana] that I've enjoyed, but poetic language seems different to me, and I can't quite say why. Different forms, I think.
New Here...Question on Organization/Schedule - sheetz - 2007-11-22
I understand that Dictionary of Advanced Japanese Grammar by the same authors as the Basic and Intermediate books will be published soon. Japanese: A Comprehensive Grammar from Routledge also appears to contain more advanced material than DIJG.
New Here...Question on Organization/Schedule - dingomick - 2007-11-22
Lots of great insights from everyone. It made me think a lot about good study progression. And _Qbe_ has provided good learning advice for anyone.
billyclyde made an excellent point about your environment. The progression I advocated above assumes you'll be living in Japan. Overseas hobby students may want to take a slightly different approach.
I can also agree with bill that it was invaluable for me to focus solely on RTK for 2 months. It has done more for my total Japanese comprehension than anything else. The question, as others have noted, is how early to tackle it. RTK is indeed an amazing tool , but it takes dedication that only a truly driven beginner or the already smitten student has. I think:
For someone living in Japan or going soon, taking 2 or 3 months to finish half or all a beginners book (or Pimsleur 1 & 2) is necessary for comfortable daily living. Then one can dedicate themselves to RTK and reap the rewards. RTK is especially and immediately useful for anyone living in Japan since you're immersed in kanji exposure.
For someone NOT living in Japan, if you have the focus, doing RTK right after the kana would establish an enviable foundation for all your further studies. Everything simply slips into place. However, that's a mighty task to ask of anyone just starting language study. Soo, I would just say the sooner the better. (Then you can be like the rest of us and say how you wished you'd started RTK sooner).
lankydan, I've also found the Unicom Step books for JLPT to be excellent. They're completely in Japanese which scared me at first. But sitting down with it for just a few minutes reveals that the explanations are clear and succint. The also provide an excellent variety of sentences to demonstrate each grammar point.
New Here...Question on Organization/Schedule - Gamerchick1 - 2007-11-22
Thank you all for your responses.
_Qbe_ It's encouraging to see that someone else with ADHD has been successful in staying with this. I was diagnosed with ADHD combined type, as well as 1 of my sons the other no doubt will be.
I won't be living in Japan right away. I do have someone I can speak Japaense with. But reading always seemed to me to be the hardest part about learning Japanese. And remembering. I think that if I tackle that first, to at least have some familiarity with kanji, it would provide me with the much needed confidence and encouragement to go on. Most of us want to see some sort of results and maybe that's just amplified for those with ADHD.
At some point I'd like to be capable of living and working in Japan, or a company here that would find use for this particular language combination. I'd like to be able to read novels, import video games that weren't released here, and understand the Japanese movies I already watch.
I guess I will see how it goes, and where I can get the encouragement from. I may go slowly with RTK and use Genki as well so that I feel like I'm progressing towards something or getting that encouragement to continue forward. As much as I would love to be my own motivation it doesn't always work out that way, even when I want it to.
New Here...Question on Organization/Schedule - PParisi - 2007-11-23
Gamerchick1, take whatever I write with a huge grain of salt: I am still working through Heisig 1 myself.
You're in North Carolina so I expect opportunities for Japanese communication might be spare. In that case, I'd work through the kana texts and then Heisig 1, using this site. Doing this will reduce the amount of extra work you need to do when studying a language text like Genki. When you finish Heisig 1, go to Japan! Any language text you choose will be more useful if you are smack dab in the middle of that beautiful country.
If you were already in Japan, I'd suggest going from the kana texts to Genki 1, then working through Heisig 1 before going on to Genki II. You need to learn to speak and understand basic Japanese if you are going to feel comfortable in Japan.
Whatever you do, once you start working through Heisig 1, make sure to stop by the Forum after (not before!) you do your daily workout to read a few of the latest posts. This practice makes me feel more involved with the "kanji learning community" and thereby helps me stay interested.
Good luck!