JFL-ESL but lived in the US. Where to start?

JFL-ESL but lived in the US. Where to start? - Printable Version

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JFL-ESL but lived in the US. Where to start? - jpnffantasy - 2012-07-07

Hello everybody I am a 二世 (100% Jp blooded) and I grew up knowing Japanese first and it was my first language. I went to 補習校 (Japanese Saturday School) from First to Fifth grade (I think maybe Fourth, I forgot). Anyways I was doing so bad in my normal English school that I had to end up quitting.

I used to travel to Japan to visit my grandparents and the family on my mom's side every year from age 0-14 Basically before the summer of high school. Went to a Japanese Bilingual Elementary School. Then quickly switched to a Middle School full of non-Japanese. I lived in Japan from the 5th month of my birth to 14 months old which I why I am going to guess my first language was Japanese.

I never went to Japan during my High School days until 2 years in college. Even during High School I was able to speak and read early elementary Japanese and High School English. I still wasn't very good in English classes (I think it's mainly due to essays).

As I recall I remember doing well in Hoshuukou that writing 作文 wasn't a big issue for me.

Now I'm 26 years old. Last I went to Japan to visit family was 3 years ago and at the time I was so engraved in the English language due to friends all being Asian (but none of them being Japanese) and white I realized I forgot so many words even though I was still able to communicate with the people there but I sounded like a elementary kid.

Imagine being Japanese, grew up knowing Japanese, going to Japan at age 26 with proper Japanese pronunciation with no accents but lost a lot of vocabulary and only knows early Elementary Kanji. It's pretty embarrassing. Even more when I run into a foreign looking guy who speaks better Japanese than me.

Anyways, that's my story and to combat that I want get going and get my kanji down so no regrets later. My question is where and/or how should I start? Because I already know a handfull of Kanji since I see them on a daily basis at home (even though there's still a bunch of kanji at home I can't read) and learning from things like 日 and a bunch of basic numbers would seem like a waste of time since I clearly know them so well.

Thanks

JFL-ESL but lived in the US. Where to start? - Inny Jan - 2012-07-07

I'm not sure how useful Heisig is going to be to you but you might try his method. I've put together couple of observations on kanji study with Heisig in here. You probably don't have to worry about most of the points there but maybe you will find helpful the "- Order" section. In a nutshell, it point's out that Heisig doesn't have to all-or-nothing and selective kanji study (with use of mnemonics based on Hesig primitives) is possible.

JFL-ESL but lived in the US. Where to start? - jpnffantasy - 2012-07-08

OK, cool

Now I was looking through this book, and from what I capture.

I get this book is about finding what the meaning of the kanji is but how I can I find the Furigana of the kanji and remember to read it that way? Because, lets say I was given something to read out loud. This book only seems to not teach me the spoken way.

Or did I overlooked something in the book that I am missing?

Oh another thing I want to ask is, for me if I decide to follow the RTK method will I be translating the kanji to english every time? I understand that most of the users studying to learn Japanese will be but I'm afraid that I'll be lost get all confused how to think. Here is three examples of what I mean.

When I see the Kanji 一 I don't see it as "one" but I see it as... well "ichi" and it comes naturally for me. When I see the word "one" in English I see it as a English speaker.

When I see the Kanji 月 I don't see it as "moon" rather I see it as "tsuki". Strangely when I read 月 I see it as a wonderful night in a snowy village mainly due to Kaguya-hime. But when I read the word "moon" I see it as a something scary because from what I remember full moon - werewolf.

When I see the Kanji 勉強 I don't ever think of it as the word study like a English speaker. When I see the word "study" I would think like a English speaker and study is ... well study and not benkyou.

It's very hard what I'm trying to describe. But if you even remotely understand what I am trying to say, please tell me what goes through your mind when you see the kanji. For example if you do see the kanji 勉強 does your mind goes "study"? And if you know the furigana as "benkyou" do you go something like "benkyou" then think "study". If you read some phrase or sentence do you have some sort of translation going on in your mind during or after you read it or do you just think of it without translating at all?

The question above is for people who used this RTK method to learn the kanji.

Thanks

JFL-ESL but lived in the US. Where to start? - avelicu - 2012-07-08

Hey man,

The Heisig method doesn't teach readings at all. It's mainly for creating a 'spot' in your brain for each Kanji and learning how to write it and it's great for that.

Regarding your question with 勉強, no, nobody who has done Heisig will remember the individual kanji english meanings; however, after doing Heisig you will have written each of the two kanji a bunch of times and you would have a place for it in your head and you would be able to recognize each of them; not to read them, but you would know they're "that kanji". You then associate a reading to them, which is much easier.

Personally, after completing Heisig, I used mnemonics for the on-yomis, sometimes inspired by the ones in kanjidamage.com. For example, when I got to 強 (I already knew the word 強い) I just associated the idea of today (which is coincidentally read キョウ) to the idea of strong. I don't remember how I did, after a while the reading just sticks. Repeat for all the other kanji's onyomi.

As for the words themselves, I don't think I ever saw 勉強 and thought study. I probably saw it, thought ベンキョウ, and then thought study. That's how it happens for newer words that I've recently studied. But for simple words such as ベンキョウ I link to the concept in my head directly.

Anyway, I really think you being Japanese and you having at some point had a much larger vocabulary will give you a huge boost in learning soon. Try getting Anki (from http://ankisrs.net) and downloading the 'Core 2k/6k Optimized Japanese Vocabulary' deck from File>Download>Shared Deck. You will have a lot of vocab there and you will just pick up the readings in context. Don't worry about the very easy words at the beginning, just choose 'very easy' and you will get rid of them in no time.

If you decide to go through with the Heisig method, you can simply use Japanese words that you already know in place of the English keywords. Most of us were not able to do this since we didn't have enough Japanese vocab, but you are much luckier in this regard Smile

. And, again, if you're studying Heisig through either this website or the Anki deck, the kanjis you know well will disappear immediately if you just keep choosing 'very easy' when they come up (just make sure you know how to write them properly!)

I hope this helps! Good luck on your quest. If I get any more ideas I will post them to you. If you need any help with Anki or if you want to study Japanese together :p You can add me on skype (adi.velicu).

Adi

JFL-ESL but lived in the US. Where to start? - Inny Jan - 2012-07-08

jpnffantasy Wrote:I get this book is about finding what the meaning of the kanji is

The keywords in the book are not identical with meanings of the kanji – the kewords there are just to make mental/memory hooks that can be used to create mnemonics for the shapes/strokes. It's an important distinction because you will at times find that Heisig's keyword is far apart from the meaning the kanji. This doesn't happen often but it does happen. Good news is that most of the Heisig keywords are close to kanji meanings.

jpnffantasy Wrote:how I can I find the Furigana of the kanji

jpnffantasy Wrote:This book only seems to not teach me the spoken way

This is correct – the full title of this book is: “Remembering the Kanji vol 1: a complete course on how not to forget the meaning and writing of Japanese characters” (note the omission of reading). But is this really that useful to know readings of the kanji in isolation? If I write 福島 how do you know that it's ふく・しま and not ふく・とう? I'm of opinion that it's not the best use of your time to learn readings without learning vocabulary that uses a specific kanji. With time, and a reasonable sized vocabulary, you will easily infer readings of the characters.

jpnffantasy Wrote:will I be translating the kanji to english every time?

Through out the book Heisig uses English keywords in English edition of “Remembering the Kanji”. According to [1] there are also editions in Spanish and German – I can't see any reason why there couldn't be Japanese edition Smile

. In fact there are people here who at some stage switch from English keywords to Japanese ones. There is no problem with that whatsoever (well, you probably would need to put most the keywords in kana so to not show the kanji of the front of the card).

jpnffantasy Wrote:when I read 月 I see it as a wonderful night in a snowy village mainly due to Kaguya-hime

Some people struggle with concept of imaginative memory but you seem to be free from that issue. Your stories and images that you use for remembering the characters can be anything you choose it to be – the only thing that really matters is to make them (stories/images) memorable. You are free to use your image of 月 to create stories for characters that include 月 as their primitive/radical. How would you remember 熨? (Here is a hint.)

jpnffantasy Wrote:But if you even remotely understand what I am trying to say, please tell me what goes through your mind when you see the kanji.

English is not my first language so for me 勉強 is what I choose it to be at a given time – I may refer to it as the English “study”, I might refer to it as “uczyć się” (my native language equivalent of “study”), I might refer to it as 勉強 to the extend that limited by my understanding of this word at this moment (for now, I understand that this is as an activity when you actively acquire some knowledge).

jpnffantasy Wrote:If you read some phrase or sentence do you have some sort of translation going on in your mind

For simple words and phrases I don't need any translation, for complex phrases or words that I didn't see often yes, I do translate.

And a general note. It's true that Heisig's method is for people with little knowledge of kanji but you admit yourself that there are some that you have problems with – with those, I thought, Heisig could help you.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remembering_the_Kanji_and_Remembering_the_Hanzi

JFL-ESL but lived in the US. Where to start? - blackbrich - 2012-07-08

It would probably be easier to just start reading something simple with furigana. For every word you don't know the meaning of make a flash card with the reading and meaning on the back. For every word you know the meaning but not the reading just add the reading to the back.

Front
刑務所
Back
けいむしょ
prison

Front
一
Back
いち

JFL-ESL but lived in the US. Where to start? - jpnffantasy - 2012-07-08

OK, so how does the actual studying and practice work?

I read the Introduction and maybe it's cause the way I was taught was to say the word and write the word over and over. Then tested myself only looking at furigana only and if I forget then I have to write the word over again multiple times. I don't know how they teach non-native speakers. Seeing the book divided into three parts, how do you exactly use this book.

I know if I don't ask then I'm going to be using this book incorrectly because I will end up just reading the book and that's it. How do you actually remember the kanji with the text given?

How would you guys remember writing the kanji because reading it is so much easier than writing.

I'd like to know multiple inputs in study styles with this book.

JFL-ESL but lived in the US. Where to start? - Inny Jan - 2012-07-08

If you are still asking those questions I suggest you read this post in its entirety (not just the "- Order" section).

So, can you write 熨 yet?

JFL-ESL but lived in the US. Where to start? - jpnffantasy - 2012-07-10

Ok, I'm seeing what this RTK method is trying to use. I remember my mother teaching me how to remember 親 she said 「こうやって覚える方もあるよ、木の上に立って自分の子を学校にいくのを見る」 and that is how I remembered it since.

But there are plenty of words in here that I am having a hard time remembering even with explaination. I understand how you said sometimes Heisig's way sometimes fails to explain the story and I'm not even at the 100 mark yet.

For instance lets use kanji I don't know personally in Kanji: Page, Stubborn, Mediocre, Defeat.. are some and I can't even make my own image in my head on why it's written that way.

Another one I noticed was 的 which I know how and when to use it but I never gave it much thought on what it even meant. In fact I don't even know what it means in Japanese, and in this book it says "Bulls-eye" and I don't see how a "White bird on a ladle with a bullseye mark" is visible with this kanji. How do you guys do it? All I would see is White and Ladle and I don't even know the kanji ladle.

I'd like to ask, what do you guys do in this situation?

JFL-ESL but lived in the US. Where to start? - Inny Jan - 2012-07-11

If you know how to read and write given kanji then why worry about Heisigs mnemonics? Take on only those that you don’t know/have difficulty remembering. A slight disadvantage in doing this that way is that you will not be getting a lot of exposure to primitives – but you can SRS them, can’t you?

For those kanji that you don’t know, go to the [1][2]study pages, read the stories that people already put there, pick one that you like, and if there is no such – make up your own based on primitives for the kanji. Initially, everybody has difficulties with making their stories but it gets easier after you did some.

And remember to put things that you don’t want to forget into SRS (Anki, Supermemo)

[1] page - http://kanji.koohii.com/study/kanji/頁
[2] stubborn - http://kanji.koohii.com/study/kanji/頑

PS. Your mother's story is a nice one - it's very much in a spirit of Hesig's method. If we talk about this specific kanji, Heisig noticed that the left side of 親 is used in other kanji as well (like in 新 or 薪), so he made a keyword for it – “red pepper” and uses that to make the stories.

JFL-ESL but lived in the US. Where to start? - Norman - 2012-07-11

Your case is quite interesting because you lie precisely in between the typical Western non-native and a native Japanese. Heisig has stated that his method is aimed more towards Westerns learning Japanese. In your particular case, however, I think RTK could be beneficial for you. The first chapter sample is available online. I can't remember where precisely, but it may have been on Google Books. I first gave the chapter one a try and I found that it was very effective for me, so I bought the book.

There are books 2 and 3, but I believe you should first go through book 1. I know that you have a lot of kanji and native background information still locked inside your head. Go through book 1, and I would expect that you could breeze through it quickly, afterwards the real learning will take place for you in books 2 and 3.