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+--- Thread: Child snatching in Japan (/thread-9617.html)
Child snatching in Japan - s0apgun - 2012-06-17
http://youtu.be/P3g3g_0r01c
Thoughts?
Child snatching in Japan - Hashiriya - 2012-06-17
I don't have any experience in this, but if someone abducted your children, couldn't you just go to whatever country they ran off to and abduct them back?
Child snatching in Japan - TwoMoreCharacters - 2012-06-17
I don't like making statements when my only perspective is from one source, but this is bucked up, surely.
Child snatching in Japan - vix86 - 2012-06-17
Hashiriya Wrote:I don't have any experience in this, but if someone abducted your children, couldn't you just go to whatever country they ran off to and abduct them back?Don't get caught.
I can't see the video since the guy blocked the link to Japan, but I'm assuming this is on Japan's infamous track record with supporting mothers that kidnap kids back to Japan.
Fact of the matter is that Japanese law does not see the father as capable of raising a kid or even really wanting to be part of the child's life. The system does not really allow for dual custody, be they Japanese dads or foreign dads. My opinion on the matter is that if you ever marry a Japanese woman, you'd best be dam sure about it, because Japan has decided it wants to maintain a judicial system precedent on an issue like this that's inline with countries from a century ago/third world. Most countries have signed on to the Hague convention which sets down some guidelines for International custody/dealing with child abduction. The only countries that haven't signed are Asian countries, including Japan, Korea, China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, India. It may be though that these courts in these countries are more open to dealing with abduction cases, but in Japan courts assign full custody to the mother; no questions asked, usually.
Child snatching in Japan - Bokusenou - 2012-06-17
vix86 Wrote:Fact of the matter is that Japanese law does not see the father as capable of raising a kid or even really wanting to be part of the child's life. The system does not really allow for dual custody, be they Japanese dads or foreign dads.Isn't it the same way with Japanese husbands with foreign wives, in that the child always goes to the Japanese parent? Or are Japanese courts more likely to give custody to a foreign mother because she's a woman?
Child snatching in Japan - Hashiriya - 2012-06-17
Yeh, the one woman in the video was foreign with a Japanese husband that abducted her child. Why wasn't she helped if that is the case?
Child snatching in Japan - kitakitsune - 2012-06-17
The police in Japan do not consider child abduction by an undivorced parent as a crime, only a family dispute. Even if the father takes the kids, which is extremely rare. That's why they didn't help the American woman.
Ultimately - after divorce - they will award sole custody to the mother, based on longstanding Japanese tradition.
Child snatching in Japan - kitakitsune - 2012-06-17
Also - so many foreign dads trying to impose their cultural imperialism on Japan and Asia.
They probably had no idea what they were getting into when they married a Japanese girl. Keep on gaijin smashing guys.
Child snatching in Japan - Tzadeck - 2012-06-17
kitakitsune Wrote:Also - so many foreign dads trying to impose their cultural imperialism on Japan and Asia.I'm pretty sure 'cultural imperialism' is the wrong word here--what are you trying to say?
Child snatching in Japan - HonyakuJoshua - 2012-06-17
I am quite famous among my friends for not imitating Japanese cultures and manners - I think many people who try this look like the foreigners speaking about buddhism in lost in translation.
Child snatching in Japan - Tzadeck - 2012-06-17
HonyakuJoshua Wrote:I am quite famous among my friends for not imitating Japanese cultures and manners - I think many people who try this look like the foreigners speaking about buddhism in lost in translation.Having good manners in Japan is the same as people who don't know about Buddhism trying to talk about Buddhism? I think you need to rethink your position on this a bit.
Child snatching in Japan - kitakitsune - 2012-06-17
Tzadeck Wrote:Foreigners are trying to force their western concept of parenting on Japan.kitakitsune Wrote:Also - so many foreign dads trying to impose their cultural imperialism on Japan and Asia.I'm pretty sure 'cultural imperialism' is the wrong word here--what are you trying to say?
I think it's fairly obvious.
Child snatching in Japan - Tzadeck - 2012-06-17
kitakitsune Wrote:That's the wrong way to look at this, and cultural imperialism is the wrong word. Cultural imperialism implies that there is an unequal power relationship between the two countries, and the culture of the stronger is forced upon the weaker country.Tzadeck Wrote:Foreigners are trying to force their western concept of parenting on Japan.kitakitsune Wrote:Also - so many foreign dads trying to impose their cultural imperialism on Japan and Asia.I'm pretty sure 'cultural imperialism' is the wrong word here--what are you trying to say?
I think it's fairly obvious.
One reason that it doesn't apply here is that it's not clear that an unfair power relationship between the two countries is involved in any way. Do you think there is? And why?
Another thing is that this seems like a dispute between private individuals with different cultures who each are trying to impose their own cultural belief on the other.
Let's simplify the positions into these: Japanese generally believe that the mother has the right to raise the children after a separation; Americans (and the English, etc.) generally believe that both parents have rights to the children, but one parent may get more rights depending on the circumstances (like income, ability in childrearing, etc.).
So generally in the event of a separation a Japanese mother will claim the right to the children, and an American father will claim that he also has some rights, and the two will be in disagreement. If the couple is in Japan the courts will most probably agree with the Japanese cultural normal. If the couple is in America the courts will most probably agree with the American cultural norm.
So how is this cultural imperialism? Seems to me like a cultural dispute, which is equal on boths sides.
Child snatching in Japan - kitakitsune - 2012-06-17
If you want to get picky about words then fine, we can knock off "cultural imperialism".
But the fact remains is that the groups advocating for Japan to sign the Hague Convention in Japan are foreigners who are trying to force their western views of parenting on Japan. Japanese fathers make up less than 5% of these organizations, at most.
Child snatching in Japan - vix86 - 2012-06-17
kitakitsune Wrote:Foreigners are trying to force their western concept of parenting on Japan.Child abduction isn't "parenting." A single parent takes their kids away, courts grant a parent full custody, and the other parent never sees them again. You can't trot cultural relativism for everything and say "Welp, its their culture, guess I'm screwed!" Give me a ***** break.
I think it's fairly obvious.
Whats wrong with a parent wanting to a part of their child's life? These abduction cases are often cases where the other parent can't be part of the kid's life.
EDIT: Something else to add on. If you read the Hague Convention, it specifically deals with the fact that "a child is removed from a place where the status quo had existed." Usually this means "Japanese wife lived with husband in <Insert country> and then kidnapped the kids away back to Japan because the relationship broke down" there is usually never any case about this. You're viewpoint, I take it, is something along the lines of "why shouldn't they be raised there." So let me flip this around, "American wife to Japanese father kidnaps the kids back to the US because the relationship turns sour, father wants custody." Does it still have the same feel to you? What if an "American father kidnaps the kids back to the US, from a Japanese wife." Same? If you are going to trot out cultural relativism to "defend" what these Japanese women do, then I hope to god, you feel exactly the same way about flip and reversed cases.
Child snatching in Japan - kitakitsune - 2012-06-18
Japanese society feels that children belong with the mother and she has the right to decide the amount of future participation the father has in raising the children. The concept is the same whether or not the mother is Japanese.
It's only westerners who come into Japan with this idea of joint custody.
Child snatching in Japan - vix86 - 2012-06-18
kitakitsune Wrote:Japanese society feels that children belong with the mother and she has the right to decide the amount of future participation the father has in raising the children. The concept is the same whether or not the mother is Japanese.Yep and nothing about the way Japan feels about this makes it right either.
It's only westerners who come into Japan with this idea of joint custody.
If you adhere to cultural relativism, its impossible to argue with "Because its their culture." They bash the brains of their 10 month old out, its ok "because it's their culture." And THAT'S truthful hyperbole too, infanticide happens in multiple cultures. Lets not get started on child marriages in the middle east.
But to continue with this cultural relativism shtick. In most Western countries, we feel that kids have a more round and solid life if their father is around (Shit, I'm sure you could even dig up a mountain of academic literature to back this up too). Therefore joint custody is right, because its our culture and if the mother accepted to come and live in our countries then they accepted our culture.
EDIT: I'm mixing my terms up. I'm meaning moral relativism not cultural relativism I think.
Child snatching in Japan - kitakitsune - 2012-06-18
Western nations have every right to pass laws and regulations that would prevent a Japanese women from leaving the country with her kids.
So why should Japan also make it illegal when their society does not view this action as illegal but as an inherent right of the mother?
Child snatching in Japan - kitakitsune - 2012-06-18
And when I say "Japan" - I really mean the plurality of world population who agree with the basic concept of sole motherly custody.
Child snatching in Japan - vix86 - 2012-06-18
Its sounds like you disagree with nothing.
The point of the Hague convention is that if a Japanese mother decides to move overseas and live in another country and have a family there. And then the relationship sours and she abducts the kids back to Japan without any prior agreement with the father. Under the Hague convention, the kids would have to be returned, because "status quo child custody" set the place of residence there. To quote wiki:
Quote:The primary intention of the Convention is to preserve whatever status quo child custody arrangement existed immediately before an alleged wrongful removal or retention thereby deterring a parent from crossing international boundaries in search of a more sympathetic court. The Convention applies only to children under the age of 16.Like wise, if an American father decides to abduct his kids back to the US after having lived in Japan, they'd be returned to Japan.
Hague convention is basically like saying: "If you murder someone in the US and you flee to Japan, Japan is going to return you to the US." But right not its like "If you murder someone in the US and you flee to Japan, because its okay in Japan's eyes, they see no reason to return you to the US."
Child snatching in Japan - vix86 - 2012-06-18
kitakitsune Wrote:And when I say "Japan" - I really mean the plurality of world population who agree with the basic concept of sole motherly custody.Nevermind. Its impossible to argue this point really if you don't see anything wrong with the father being kept out of their child's life.
Child snatching in Japan - s0apgun - 2012-06-18
Just to add to what you are saying, its not only an issue between mothers escaping to other countries... Japanese fathers are shut out of their children's life completely in the blink of an eye if the mother decides to walk away.
That is such a powerful ability for Japanese women to have control over their husbands. I think the biggest problem is that sole mother custody exists in an imperfect world. Not all women are sane or even capable of raising a child. The husband would have no case in Japan if he presented the matter even if the woman was a straight nut.
In my opinion, this is just another one of those things that Japan has their head up their ass about and as usual no one has the guts to confront it as an issue. JAPAN.
Child snatching in Japan - kitakitsune - 2012-06-18
vix86 Wrote:As an American I do have a problem with it but I don't feel that I have some inherent right to go around Asia telling people the "correct" way to raise children.kitakitsune Wrote:And when I say "Japan" - I really mean the plurality of world population who agree with the basic concept of sole motherly custody.Nevermind. Its impossible to argue this point really if you don't see anything wrong with the father being kept out of their child's life.
Child snatching in Japan - kitakitsune - 2012-06-18
s0apgun Wrote:The husband would have no case in Japan if he presented the matter even if the woman was a straight nut.This is not true. 20% of the time the husband is granted sole custody. Probably for the reasons you bring up.
Child snatching in Japan - Tzadeck - 2012-06-18
s0apgun Wrote:Just to add to what you are saying, its not only an issue between mothers escaping to other countries... Japanese fathers are shut out of their children's life completely in the blink of an eye if the mother decides to walk away.Though, don't let this get confused into the argument about the Hague Convention. The Hague Convention is about respecting the custody laws of the country where the child is living. It's got nothing to do with whether or not maternal custody is a good system.
That is such a powerful ability for Japanese women to have control over their husbands. I think the biggest problem is that sole mother custody exists in an imperfect world. Not all women are sane or even capable of raising a child. The husband would have no case in Japan if he presented the matter even if the woman was a straight nut.
In my opinion, this is just another one of those things that Japan has their head up their ass about and as usual no one has the guts to confront it as an issue. JAPAN.