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The "Valid/Invalid Reasons for Learning Japanese" phenomena - qwertyytrewq - 2013-01-18
The "Valid/Invalid Reasons for Learning Japanese" phenomena v0.65b
By qwertyytrewq
Version History
v0.5 Document written and made public
v0.6 Glossary added
v0.65 "Learning language to learn language" reason added
INTRODUCTION
In this report, I will:
1) Explain the circumstances of a "why are you learning x language" conversation event.
2) Identify valid (high culture) and invalid (low culture) reasons for learning Japanese, as deemed by society.
3) Explain the psychology of Japanese high culture-consumers and their negative view of Japanese low culture-consumers.
1. THE CONVERSATION
People learn languages for many reasons and for many combinations of reasons. Let's be clear on the outset: should the language learner deem that the benefits of learning a language outweighs the cost (time, effort and money) of learning a language, then any reason for learning a language is valid, even learning a language for the sake of learning it.
Evidently however, some reasons are more valid than others. Should your inquisitor find out your reason(s) for learning a language is what he deems as "invalid", then he/she will generally react negatively, covertly and overtly. On the overt side of things, he may express regret, disappointment, disheartening, pity or at best, apathy. Covertly, at worst, he may hate you, what you stand for and everything you hold dear.
There are several options available when asked the question "why are you learning Japanese"?
1) Honestly:
1a) Complete honesty: You explain your reasons for learning Japanese, both the valid (if applicable) and invalid reasons. The conversation now has the potential to be awkward.
1b) Partial honesty: You explain your reasons for learning Japanese, however you only inform them of your valid reasons. The conversation continues as normal.
2) Dishonestly:
2a) Complete dishonesty: You explain your "valid" reasons for learning Japanese, when in reality, you personally don't care about those valid reasons. The conversation continues as normal.
2b) Troll honesty: You explain your "invalid" reasons just to see how your questioners would react. Laughs may ensue.
Partial honesty and Complete dishonesty involves various degrees of deception. In Japanese, we call this phenomena 本音 (honne, your private true self) and 建前 (tatemae, your public face).
By being dishonest or partially honest about your intentions for learning Japanese, you are hiding your true self ("I am learning Japanese for, in your opinion, invalid reasons") and presenting a facade to the public ("I am learning Japanese for, what society deems to be, valid reasons"). Among otakus (people who have a substantial interest in Japanese culture, often sub-culture), this is informally known as "hiding your power level."
This begs the question: what are the valid and invalid reasons for learning Japanese?
2. VALID AND INVALID REASONS FOR LEARNING LANGUAGES
INVALID (BAD) REASONS FOR LEARNING JAPANESE
1) Japanese animation (anime)
2) Japanese comic books (manga)
3) Japanese video games
4) Japanese girls/women
5) Japanese guys/males
6) Japanese porn
7)
8)
9)
10)
VALID (GOOD) REASONS FOR LEARNING JAPANESE
1) Japanese drama (TV shows)
2) Japanese movies
3) Japanese books
4) Japanese career/jobs/money
5) Japanese food
6) Japanese fashion
7) Japanese architecture
8) Japanese tea ceremonies
9) Japanese art (traditional)
10) Japanese ikebana (flower arranging)
11) Japanese shodo (calligraphy)
12) Japanese martial arts
13) Japanese friends/family
14) Learn another language
IN DISPUTE
1) Japanese music
2) Japanese guys/males
Note: The table above is based on the views of mainstream society in general and may differ on the individual level.
3. THE JAPANESE LANGUAGE "ELITIST"
Everyone lives in society so we must to various degrees, conform. When a white monolingual person, maybe xenophobic, who has never been out of the country asks you why you are learning a foreign language, you "hide your power level" so that the conversation flows smoothly, so that you do not get a negative response, and it is generally more convenient to do so.
However, the special case is if your inquisitor is also a fellow Japanese language learner. In particular, this Japanese language learner has devoted him or herself to only or mainly the "valid" reasons (for whatever reason) and when faced with a Japanese language learner who is learning it for "invalid" reasons, reactions may vary considerably. We will focus on the Japanese language learner who reacts negatively.
Generally, this Japanese language learner places him or herself above other Japanese language learners. This is because his interests lie in valid reasons only, not invalid (such as anime). Just like his interests, he is educated, sophisticated, prestigious, and cultured. When faced with someone who likes "less noble" "low Japanese culture" (anime, manga etc) he may react with disappointment, regret, and/or pity, but never hate. This is because he indulges in "high culture" (bonsai, calligraphy, etc) and he does not want to associate himself with what he considers to be the lower class of Japanese language learners, or in general terms, plebeians. In turn, this means that he retains his respectful place in general society, where he gains the benefits of learning a language but without the negatives (association with "lower class" Japanese language learners). From this vantage point, he feels superior.
This mentality conflicts with the rule at the top of this document: any reason for learning Japanese is valid.
Worth noting also is that many "high culture" Japanese language learners learned Japanese for "low culture" in the first place but "graduated" to high culture after watching 9,000 episodes of anime. This means that they are hypocrites who deny the experiences they enjoyed from newer language learners.
4. RECOMMENDATIONS
I would like to reiterate this general principle: should the language learner deem that the benefits of learning a language outweighs the cost (time, effort and money) of learning a language, then any reason for learning a language is valid, even learning a language for the sake of learning it.
With this in mind, here are the recommendations:
1) While it is not necessary that Japanese language elitists praise "low culture" language learners, they should not discourage them.
2) It is up to the individual to gauge the specific situation and to determine whether it is in his or her own interests to engage in honne and tatemae (hiding power levels).
3) Japanese language learners should always remember the general rule and to ignore non-constructive negative feedback whether it is from Japanese language elitists or the general public.
4) Should one lose their way in the sea of negativity, take a visit to All Japanese All The Time (AJAAT) for moral support and guidance.
Further reading
"You're studying Japanese?! You must love anime!/be an otaku!/etc.!"
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=8906&page=4
The Discouragement Thread
http://forum.koohii.com/search.php?search_id=1571248467
6. GLOSSARY
High culture - Interests and hobbies that are deemed to be sophisticated, educated and/or cultured (EG. ikebana, tea ceremonies). Often but not always correlating to a "valid" reason for learning Japanese.
Honne (本音) - Your true internal private thoughts and/or feelings. See tatemae.
Invalid (reason for learning Japanese) - A reason for learning Japanese (usually a low culture interest like anime, manga) that often invokes a negative response from those who learn of it.
Low culture - The opposite of high culture. Interests and hobbies that are deemed to be mainstream (EG. anime, manga). Often but not always correlating to an "invalid" reason for learning Japanese.
Otaku - One who has a deep interest in a particular hobby.
Tatemae (建前) - The "face" that you present to the public and the "face" that you want other people to see you as. One's tatemae (public) thoughts and feelings are often different from one's honne (private) thoughts and feelings.
Valid (reason for learning Japanese) - A reason for learning Japanese (usually a mid to high culture interest like Japanese friends or job/career) that often invokes a positive or a non-negative response from those who learn of it.
The "Valid/Invalid Reasons for Learning Japanese" phenomena - uisukii - 2013-01-18
Quote:This begs the question: what are the valid and invalid reasons for learning Japanese?In my opinion, everything is valid as long as it contains at least one of the following attributes:- I want to...
study Japanese;
learn Japanese;
get used to Japanese;
enjoy Japanese;
understand Japanese;
use Japanese;
write in Japanese;
think in Japanese.
Whether or not someone else finds your reasoning invalid, the matter of the fact still remains that getting used to a Japanese can only be ultimately achieved by the person learning/studying/whatever Japanese. Even if his or her peers/friends/family/etc. support or deny his or her desires, they cannot be inside his or her head making Japanese "make sense".
As a personal anecdote, my brother, whom I am very close with after some years of estrangement, told me point-blank, not long ago, that learning another language isn't a life goal, or something worthwhile. Essentially outright rejecting the validity of my time, passion, effort and desire. The point is that there will be some people who will never see what you are doing as valid in their eyes, and even if it crushes your spirit and makes you want to crawl into a hole in the floor and die, it is ultimately a lonely road regardless. Some may join you along the way, but they are not able to carry your pack, nor can they ease your aching muscles from the journey.
Quote:any reason for learning a language is valid, even learning a language for the sake of learning itA thousand times this.
The "Valid/Invalid Reasons for Learning Japanese" phenomena - quincy - 2013-01-18
I do it so i can watch tv and play video games while feeling productive because it's in a different language.
The "Valid/Invalid Reasons for Learning Japanese" phenomena - Taishi - 2013-01-18
quincy Wrote:I do it so i can watch tv and play video games while feeling productive because it's in a different language.That is, at the very least, a nice side effect of studying a language indeed. "I'm not watching TV, I'm studying!"
The "Valid/Invalid Reasons for Learning Japanese" phenomena - undead_saif - 2013-01-18
qwertyytrewq Wrote:2) Identify valid (high culture) and invalid (low culture) reasons for learning Japanese, as deemed by society.WTH are "high culture" and "low culture"?!
qwertyytrewq Wrote:VALID AND INVALID REASONS FOR LEARNING LANGUAGESThese are all perfectly "valid" reasons to learn a language. Think about it, isn't it the person who studies the language is the one to decide whether it's a valid reason or not? If his/her reasons are making him/her learn the language, which isn't an easy thing, then they are valid, even if it's for porn!
INVALID (BAD) REASONS FOR LEARNING JAPANESE
1) Japanese animation (anime)
2) Japanese comic books (manga)
3) Japanese video games
4) Japanese girls/women
5) Japanese guys/males
6) Japanese porn
7)
8)
9)
10)
VALID (GOOD) REASONS FOR LEARNING JAPANESE
1) Japanese drama (TV shows)
2) Japanese movies
3) Japanese books
4) Japanese career/jobs/money
5) Japanese food
6) Japanese fashion
7) Japanese architecture
8) Japanese tea ceremonies
9) Japanese art (traditional)
10) Japanese ikebana (flower arranging)
11) Japanese shodo (calligraphy)
12) Japanese martial arts
IN DISPUTE
1) Japanese music
2) Japanese guys/males
Note: The table above is based on the views of mainstream society in general and may differ on the individual level.
Someone might say that the Japanese traditional art is a higher value experience than watching Anime, which is understandable, but it's not the same thing to say that learning Japanese for art is a better reason than for Anime!
I enjoy or can benefit from X and Japan can offer a lot in that area, so I want to learn Japanese. Does it matter what X is?
TBH, I don't understand what's the purpose of this thread, if this thread is a continuation to the discussion on the other thread, isn't it supposed to be about "what are the most popular reasons for people to learn languages"?
The "Valid/Invalid Reasons for Learning Japanese" phenomena - undead_saif - 2013-01-18
Taishi Wrote:This quite strange. If you want to enjoy TV or video games, then do so. If you want to be productive, then be. If you think one has a higher priority that the other, then do it.quincy Wrote:I do it so i can watch tv and play video games while feeling productive because it's in a different language.That is, at the very least, a nice side effect of studying a language indeed. "I'm not watching TV, I'm studying!"
It's either one, watching TV in another language can be a more enjoyable way to learn the language, not enjoying your time in a "productive" way. I hope what I mean gets across.
The "Valid/Invalid Reasons for Learning Japanese" phenomena - Taishi - 2013-01-18
undead_saif Wrote:Well, there are times when what you want to do and what you should be doing are two quite different things. If you should be studying Japanese but you can't really be arsed to, then watching Japanese TV is clearly a better suited activity than watching TV in your native language. Even though they're technically the same thing, they give you quite different feeling about how you spend your time. Maybe you won't feel guilty for spending an entire day just watching TV for instance.Taishi Wrote:This quite strange. If you want to enjoy TV or video games, then do so. If you want to be productive, then be. If you think one has a higher priority that the other, then do it.quincy Wrote:I do it so i can watch tv and play video games while feeling productive because it's in a different language.That is, at the very least, a nice side effect of studying a language indeed. "I'm not watching TV, I'm studying!"
It's either one, watching TV in another language can be a more enjoyable way to learn the language, not enjoying your time in a "productive" way. I hope what I mean gets across.
Anyway, I wasn't being totally serious about it, I just made a lighthearted remark. So back on topic.
About your remark on the OP, I don't think they're meant to be taken as an OK way to view the different reasons, but how the different reasons are likely to be viewed by others.
The "Valid/Invalid Reasons for Learning Japanese" phenomena - Crispy - 2013-01-18
I learned Italian because I like Pizza... Is that a valid reason?
The "Valid/Invalid Reasons for Learning Japanese" phenomena - Fillanzea - 2013-01-18
If I had looked back in time and asked myself, "Self, are you still going to be into Sailor Moon when you're 28?" I'm not sure that I would have kept up studying Japanese.
But I also couldn't have predicted any of the doors that it eventually opened up for me, so...you can't say that a reason is valid or invalid, really; you can only see in hindsight if it was worth it or not.
何回迷ったっていいさ 血の跡を辿り戻ればいいさ
目標なんか無くていいさ 気付けば後から付いてくる
可能性という名の道が 幾つも伸びてるせいで
散々迷いながら どこへでも行けるんだ
The "Valid/Invalid Reasons for Learning Japanese" phenomena - theasianpleaser - 2013-01-18
qwertyytrewq Wrote:"Among otakus (people who have a substantial interest in Japanese culture, often sub-culture), this is informally known as "hiding your power level.""Hiding your power level" followed later by "after watching 9000 episode of anime". This is gold.
Worth noting also is that many "high culture" Japanese language learners learned Japanese for "low culture" in the first place but "graduated" to high culture after watching 9,000 episodes of anime. This means that they are hypocrites who deny the experiences they enjoyed from newer language learners.
See
if you don't understand.
The "Valid/Invalid Reasons for Learning Japanese" phenomena - Aspiring - 2013-01-18
great explanation
I do agree that you should stop caring about what other people think,
but IMO you're over-exaggerating it a bit.
The "Valid/Invalid Reasons for Learning Japanese" phenomena - undead_saif - 2013-01-19
Crispy Wrote:I learned Italian because I like Pizza... Is that a valid reason?If YOU think so!
Taishi Wrote:About your remark on the OP, I don't think they're meant to be taken as an OK way to view the different reasons, but how the different reasons are likely to be viewed by others.Well then people need to get over themselves and understand that their "way" isn't the only way, and everyone has his own.
The "Valid/Invalid Reasons for Learning Japanese" phenomena - Marumaru - 2013-01-19
I always say: because it's exciting. Now, if you ask me why it's exciting then I usually say "ma~ I don't know, it's my opinion, it's like: 'why do you like red?' or something.
The "Valid/Invalid Reasons for Learning Japanese" phenomena - Silja - 2013-01-19
I would add "Japanese friends" (meaning: you have made friends to a Japanese person and got interested in Japanese language that way) to the "good reasons" list.
qwertyytrewq Wrote:Worth noting also is that many "high culture" Japanese language learners learned Japanese for "low culture" in the first place but "graduated" to high culture after watching 9,000 episodes of anime. This means that they are hypocrites who deny the experiences they enjoyed from newer language learners.I've done it vice versa: I started as "high culture" (I got interested in Japanese art and especially calligraphy in art history class), but have moved to "low culture" (trying to find interesting anime and manga to expand my learning material). So, what am I?
By the way, I have never judged a fellow Japanese learner by the interests/reasons he/she might have. I can see your point in making yourself "noble" when you are for "high culture", but that as common phenomenon among any scene. Let's say you've been a fan for this underground band for years and the band finally makes a break-through and of course gets more fans. It's quite common for the "old" (and thus "more devoted" etc.) fans to despise the newer fans for reasons like "They only like the band because it's more popular now. When the hype cools down, they are no longer interested in their music." In this case, the longer you have done something, the more noble you are.
The "Valid/Invalid Reasons for Learning Japanese" phenomena - warrigal - 2013-01-19
Silja Wrote:I've done it vice versa: I started as "high culture" (I got interested in Japanese art and especially calligraphy in art history class), but have moved to "low culture" (trying to find interesting anime and manga to expand my learning material). So, what am I?Yep - me too, and finding myself drawn in to a whole new world :-) ...
The "Valid/Invalid Reasons for Learning Japanese" phenomena - Mushi - 2013-01-19
Possibly today's degenerate art will become tomorrow's high art.
I've never heard of anyone learning Japanese so that they can do martial arts or ikebana. (Those things don't require knowledge of any language.) The closest thing I can think of was a friend who picked up a few phrases to get by while competing in a martial arts tournament in Japan.
Personally, I grew up in a home filled with books I couldn't read, and conversations I couldn't always follow. And over the years, I had the pleasure of meeting countless others facing the same problem, to differing degrees depending on whether they were issei, nissei, etc., and found that there were others with the same motivations I had. My wish back then was, and today still remains, comprehension of what I had been missing, and what has been incomprehensible.
I assume that others had similar goals. I study Japanese so that I can use the language better. And to be able to better understand any media I may come across in the language, regardless of whether the content is categorized by someone as high or low.
The "Valid/Invalid Reasons for Learning Japanese" phenomena - howtwosavealif3 - 2013-01-19
the reason doesn't really matter. it's not going to go guarantee that you'll get fluent in japanese either way. after a while you notice that to get fluent you need a lot of input since you have to have a huge vocabulary (passively at least) and the best way to learn is with the words in context.
The "Valid/Invalid Reasons for Learning Japanese" phenomena - Crispy - 2013-01-19
undead_saif Wrote:Well fair enough thenCrispy Wrote:I learned Italian because I like Pizza... Is that a valid reason?If YOU think so!
(Obviously I was joking though).I will admit I find it strange that people learn a language in order to arrange flowers, enjoy food, use a karate chop, eat sushi or stare at art/architecture, all of which have nothing to do with use or comprehension of a language and yet are seen as "valid" reasons. Meanwhile the invalid reasons such as comics, anime, men/women do require understanding of the target language but are looked down upon. Isn't that kind of backwards?
Clearly people must think if they learn Japanese they can learn more about the subject of Ikebana or whatever else they're interested in but I don't enjoy seeing the Eiffel Tower any less because I don't understand French. I do enjoy France itself less though.
Do people not learn a language simply because they want to communicate with other people? Isn't that why languages exist? Surely that is the most valid reason of all? I applaud anybody learning a second language and to each his own but I certainly couldn't learn a language just so I could watch cartoons and play computer games. Then again, maybe the people that do should be admired--dedicating so much time and effort to something that seems so insignificant certain others.
Maybe it's just an age thing? People who tell you modern music is shit usually tend to be older. "Hip-hop is dead" tends to come from the mouths of those who grew up in the 80s/90s. Maybe those who look down on anime, comics etc. are simply older? I know from my perspective 90s anime was way better than the crap they pump out these days--might not even be true but that's my perspective so have I become a snob because of my age? Who knows... whatever reason you choose, learning another language is always a good thing in my eyes.
The "Valid/Invalid Reasons for Learning Japanese" phenomena - pm215 - 2013-01-19
qwertyytrewq Wrote:INVALID (BAD) REASONS FOR LEARNING JAPANESEI think "my boyfriend/girlfriend/husband/wife is Japanese" is generally seen as a 'socially acceptable' motivation, though...
4) Japanese girls/women
5) Japanese guys/males
The "Valid/Invalid Reasons for Learning Japanese" phenomena - howtwosavealif3 - 2013-01-19
I applaud anybody learning a second language and to each his own but I certainly couldn't learn a language just so I could watch cartoons and play computer games. Then again, maybe the people that do should be admired--dedicating so much time and effort to something that seems so insignificant certain others.
>>>
I think that's fine. People are different from each other ie introverts and extroverts in this case. What I find fun may be boring to you. Like I know somebody who loves to talk. They spent 90% of their time talking about some stupid crap on and on with their other friend. I find listening to that torturous and I can not comprehend how that can be fun . I see it as a big waste of time that could be used to read books or watch tv shows etc. and actually even though all they do is talk for majority of the day theyre not very good at speaking. im not saying their grammar is crap or anyhing like that since they only speak english. what it is is that their english is boring. if they some amount of their day inputting as opposed just talking all day their expressions etc aould be more rich and more imaginative and all that. However I let them be and just stay the hell away from them. I may not be able to comprehend how that's enjoyable for them but I still ackonwlegge and respect the fact that everyone is different with his or her interests and personality etc.
Here's this research thing on that I found that validated my thoughts about them
http://www.csun.edu/~krowlands/Content/Academic_Resources/Reading/Useful%20Articles/Cunningham-What%20Reading%20Does%20for%20the%20Mind.pdf
The "Valid/Invalid Reasons for Learning Japanese" phenomena - Hashiriya - 2013-01-19
Learning Japanese through video games is an excuse for me to play video games all day and not get in trouble by my Japanese wife. Same goes for reading manga and watching anime. I could get away with murder as long as I do it in Japanese
The "Valid/Invalid Reasons for Learning Japanese" phenomena - TheVinster - 2013-01-19
I study Japanese for a lot of reasons but a great side-effect of it is that I can put it on my resume. As someone who hates school clubs and the importance with which companies place upon active participation in school (hey, I already have a 3.8/4 GPA, leave me the hell alone) I need something to put there.
The "Valid/Invalid Reasons for Learning Japanese" phenomena - Crispy - 2013-01-19
howtwosavealif3 Wrote:Here's this research thing on that I found that validated my thoughts about themInteresting read, thanks for that
http://www.csun.edu/~krowlands/Content/Academic_Resources/Reading/Useful%20Articles/Cunningham-What%20Reading%20Does%20for%20the%20Mind.pdf
The "Valid/Invalid Reasons for Learning Japanese" phenomena - Hashiriya - 2013-01-19
how are drama and movies not in the same category as video-games and anime??
They are basically the same thing aren't they? Plus, there are movies about games/games about movies. It's all the same thing.
The "Valid/Invalid Reasons for Learning Japanese" phenomena - Stian - 2013-01-20
Well, for the people who think there are "invalid" reasons to study a language, cartoons and games may be seen as childish, whereas love flicks and thriller movies aren't.