+- kanji koohii FORUM (http://forum.koohii.com)
+-- Forum: Learning Japanese (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: The Japanese language (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-10.html)
+--- Thread: Considering making a video on Pitch Accent - What do you want to know? (/thread-9347.html)
Pages:
1
2
Considering making a video on Pitch Accent - What do you want to know? - AlexandreC - 2012-04-19
I've been entertaining the idea that some learners may benefit from it if I made a video that clearly explained how pitch works in Japanese. I don't think such a video exists yet, and I don't even know if there'd be any interest for it.
If you are interested, what kind of information are you looking for? What would you like the video to cover?
Considering making a video on Pitch Accent - What do you want to know? - Tori-kun - 2012-04-19
Very much interested, at least here, AlexandreC! I feel like you have some experience with this, so I trust you in that matter. Best would be, if you could kind of give some basic introduction to the topic itself and then start off with explaining how to pronounce (don't pick too difficult examples at the very beginning, perhaps!). I am really looking forward to it
Considering making a video on Pitch Accent - What do you want to know? - AlexandreC - 2012-04-19
Quote:I feel like you have some experience with this, so I trust you in that matter.Don't worry, I'll stick to what I know, and I'll check the info with native speakers before I present anything.
At this point, I'm thinking of introducing the concept of mora, then high vs. low, how to predict how a phrase will sound, how to predict changes, where to find pitch info for individual words, etc. I will try to only give common, useful examples that can be applied immediately by anyone.
Considering making a video on Pitch Accent - What do you want to know? - franciscobc84 - 2012-04-19
This sounds awesome! I'd be extremely interested! This is an aspect that I think is often overlooked when learning Japanese. Nobody ever explained me in a clear and systematized way how pitch accent works.
Considering making a video on Pitch Accent - What do you want to know? - Seren - 2012-04-19
It would also be appreciated if you would explicitly make clear the difference between stressing a syllable like we do in English (what not to do) and pitch accent.
Also, pitch accent between words/for the whole sentence is something that I would appreciate as I can easily look up individual words, but the same is not true for an overall sentence.
Thanks
Considering making a video on Pitch Accent - What do you want to know? - AlexandreC - 2012-04-19
Seren Wrote:It would also be appreciated if you would explicitly make clear the difference between stressing a syllable like we do in English (what not to do) and pitch accent.I definitely intend to deal with entire phrases and sentences, rather than individual words.
Also, pitch accent between words/for the whole sentence is something that I would appreciate as I can easily look up individual words, but the same is not true for an overall sentence.
Thanks
As for what not to do... I'm not sure how to deal with that, but I'll think about it.
Considering making a video on Pitch Accent - What do you want to know? - Inny Jan - 2012-04-19
There is a danger that explaining the issue involves a lot of explanations in English and few examples in Japanese. As useful as explanations in English can be there is no substitute for an amply set of Japanese expressions/phrases that illustrate the point.
Looking forward to see your video.
Considering making a video on Pitch Accent - What do you want to know? - AlexandreC - 2012-04-19
Inny Jan Wrote:There is a danger that explaining the issue involves a lot of explanations in English and few examples in Japanese. As useful as explanations in English can be there is no substitute for an amply set of Japanese expressions/phrases that illustrate the point.Noted. There will be plenty of explanations, but they should all lead to actual examples and applications.
Considering making a video on Pitch Accent - What do you want to know? - Splatted - 2012-04-19
I'm definitely interested! I don't know enough about it to say what the video should cover, but like everyone else I'm most interested in how pitch changes within a sentence. I've also been wondering if there are different rules depending on if you're asking a question, making a statement or being sarcastic etc.
Considering making a video on Pitch Accent - What do you want to know? - vix86 - 2012-04-19
I think its a good idea and advanced learners would probably appreciate it (maybe).
Pitch accent isn't something beginners and [arguably] even intermediate people should really worry about. There are way more important things to fret over. Pitch accent isn't even standard across dialects in Japan. What you find noted in J-J dictionaries is merely standard kanto/NHK accent. Many of the people I have talked to in Ibaraki say a lot of the normal tricky words like はし are all pronounced flat usually in Ibaraki-ben. And a number of the pitchs are flipped in Kansai-ben, I've been told.
Context is the most important.
That said, my only suggestion is to have natives do any of the real examples in the video.
Considering making a video on Pitch Accent - What do you want to know? - louischa - 2012-04-19
@AlexC: where did you get that knowledge about pitch accent?
I am using JSL (Jorden-Noda) and from this source I have inferred
a couple rules myself, but I wouldn't dare to generalize them.
I wouldn't think a video would be that useful, because you can cover
only so much; a program that would accentuate input sentences
would be, though. There are tons of sentences I get from educational
material other than JSL in which pitch is not explicitly noted, so I was
thinking of developing an expert system to do it, but the lack of an
authoritative rule system is holding me back. As far as I know, the
only thing available currently on the net is accentuation of individual
words, not sentences.
If you have a convincing source for these rules, then I could collaborate
with you on this if you are interested.
BTW, contrary to what has been written here, pitch accent is something
beginners should definitely worry about, before bad habits get ingrained.
Considering making a video on Pitch Accent - What do you want to know? - AlexandreC - 2012-04-19
louischa Wrote:BTW, contrary to what has been written here, pitch accent is something beginners should definitely worry about, before bad habits get ingrained.Definitely. I doubt someone could start paying attention to pitch at the advanced level and get anywhere decent. Now, if they don't want to bother, then that's another story.
louischa Wrote:@AlexC: where did you get that knowledge about pitch accent?I'm not claiming that my knowledge is perfect, but generally, I know how pitch works. Sometimes I'll even say a phrase or a sentence that sounds native (or so I'm told). My knowledge comes from looking up words in case of doubt and consistently testing it out on native speakers, whom I encourage to correct me on pitch specifically. I realized early on that all the info I could find related to individual words only rather than sentences, so I tried to figure it out on my own. For instance, I annoyed a hell of a lot of people before I figured out how the -te form works. I created this page (http://learnlangs.com/japanesepitch/index.php?title=Main_Page), but I haven't updated it in a few months. Check the chart on verb pitch. The rules I know apply to most common language patterns, not necessarily to exceptions or rare cases. For that, you'll need to consult an accent dictionary where all the rules are explained in painstaking detail. My goal is to generalize, simplify and extrapolate. The least work for the biggest bang.
I disagree that an accenting programme would be more useful -- it would be useful no doubt, but not unless the user understands how pitch works and can take that info and apply it. You can't just learn sentences by heart and hope to extrapolate that info if you don't understand the underlying patterns.
As far as I know, an accenting program would only work to get most of the job done; you'd still need a native speaker to come and check for accuracy if you intend to publish or distribute anything.
Considering making a video on Pitch Accent - What do you want to know? - toshiromiballza - 2012-05-09
I'd definitely like to know more about the rules when it comes to verb conjugation. Have you started on the video yet?
Anyway, here are some more links I found with some information:
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Japanese/Pitch_accent
http://everything2.com/title/Pitch+accent+in+the+Japanese+language
http://www.sljfaq.org/afaq/pitch-accent.html
http://genki.japantimes.co.jp/site/reso/dl/onchou/Oncho_manual.pdf
Considering making a video on Pitch Accent - What do you want to know? - AlexandreC - 2012-05-09
toshiromiballza Wrote:I'd definitely like to know more about the rules when it comes to verb conjugation. Have you started on the video yet?I created this pdf for verbs: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/353241/verb%20pitch.pdf
Anyway, here are some more links I found with some information:
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Japanese/Pitch_accent
http://everything2.com/title/Pitch+accent+in+the+Japanese+language
http://www.sljfaq.org/afaq/pitch-accent.html
http://genki.japantimes.co.jp/site/reso/dl/onchou/Oncho_manual.pdf
Does that help?
I haven't started recording the video per se, but I did start writing it...
Considering making a video on Pitch Accent - What do you want to know? - Nuriko - 2012-05-09
I'm looking forward to it!
Considering making a video on Pitch Accent - What do you want to know? - AlexandreC - 2012-05-21
Video is now available here:
http://youtu.be/EeaLEC6KO20
Considering making a video on Pitch Accent - What do you want to know? - Daichi - 2012-06-06
Seren Wrote:It would also be appreciated if you would explicitly make clear the difference between stressing a syllable like we do in English (what not to do) and pitch accent.I feel a bit stupid to be asking this, but since I'm a little clueless so I might as well. What exactly does one do differently with their mouth to produce a high or low pitch? More specificly, going back to Seren's question above, how does exactly does one stress a vowel in English with their mouth, and how exactly does that differ to changing your pitch with Japanese? The information looks good, but I can't completely comprehend and visualize what one should be doing.
Also tip for the video, keep your face on screen. You could of pushed the text on the white board to the right more to fit your head. Some visuals aside from just hand gestures could help too.
Considering making a video on Pitch Accent - What do you want to know? - buonaparte - 2012-06-06
In English, Russian, Polish – dynamic accent: the accented syllable in a word is pronounced louder. (And in English and Russian unaccented syllables are significantly reduced, they are less clearly pronounced.)
In Japanese – pitch accent (pitch rises or falls). A word is considered to have an accented mora (mora = a beat, a unit of rhythm), if, and only if, a mora with a higher pitch is immediately followed by a mora with a lower pitch. No fall in pitch, no accented mora.
Japanese spoken words are composed of morae (singular: mora). A mora is a beat, a basic unit of rhythm.
Each mora has the same length, which means each mora occupies about the same amount of time.
(A mora shouldn’t be confused with a syllable – unfortunately, it often happens. They usually say syllable but mean mora.)
Each mora in a word has a pitch (higher or lower).
Morae (moras):
short vowel 1 mora
consonant + short vowel 1 mora
long vowel 2 moras
consonant + long vowel 2 moras
っ(small tsu, to double a consonant) 1 mora,
んN (uvular) 1 mora
So, in short: one mora = one kana character. (きゃ, etc are one character of course.)
簡単 かんたん – two syllables kan-tan, four morae ka-n-ta-n.
お父さん おとうさん – three syllables o-tou-san, five morae o-to-u-sa-n
The Rules:
L –lower pitch mora, H – higher pitch mora, ga - particle
1. The first and the second morae (or moras) in a word have different pitches (no LL or HH, only HL or LH). That does NOT mean that there are only two absolute pitches in Japanese. Once the pitch has risen, it can rise further, once it has fallen, it can continue to fall. In fact “we recognize four significant pitch levels: two accented levels (high and medium-high) and two unaccented levels (neutral and low). These are not absolute pitch levels but relative to each other within a given utterance.” (Harz Jorden). Only a fall from high or medium-high to neutral or low pitch is considered to be accented. For the sake of symplicity, we use only two levels: L and H.
2. The pitch in a word never rises again once it has fallen.
2.1. It means that if the first mora is accented (higher pitch followed by lower pitch), the remaining are low.
3. If the first mora has a lower pitch, the second mora has a higher pitch and the fall can happen on any of the following morae (and once it has fallen, it never rises) when there are more than two morae.
Eg. LHL, LHLLL, LHHL, LHH, LHHH, etc.
Words LH(....) are unaccented – no pitch fall – the following particle is high, too: LH(...)GA.
Words can be accented on the last high mora – the following particle is low (pitch falls) LH(...)ga.
Which rising-falling type a word belongs to is to be learnt by heart.
There are four types of accent:
1. head-high (first higher, the rest lower)
2. mid-high (first lower, second higher, and the fall somewhere, at least the last is low)
3. flat (first lower, second and the rest higher, no pitch fall) and the following particle higher pitch
– these words are considered to be unaccented
4. tail-high (first lower, second and the rest higher, but... the fall occurs on the following particle. (iNU, iNU ga iru)
So some ‘bare’ words can sound exacltly the same (homophones), but they belong to different types.
http://tisc.isc.u-toyama.ac.jp/pronunciation/contents.html
Online quiz (Introduction 1 B)
http://tisc.isc.u-toyama.ac.jp/raicho-cgi-bin/quiz/quiz.cgi?mode=test_form&test=47
Considering making a video on Pitch Accent - What do you want to know? - Daichi - 2012-06-06
buonaparte, okay so you have clearly explained what the difference is, now how does one actually change the pitch of their voice without changing their volume? A quick google search leads me to something like this. Is something like this going to help someone who doesn't understand how to change the pitch of their voice for speaking?
Considering making a video on Pitch Accent - What do you want to know? - Thora - 2012-06-06
I'm not who you addressed the question to, but maybe this will help:
I think pitch (the melody of our speech, how low or high the notes are) is controlled by the constriction(?) of our vocal cords, not by our mouth shape. That would make sense as we're able to sing different words (mouth shape) in high notes and low notes.
Try gently squeezing your voice box with you thumb and index finger. Sing "aah" as a low note and then as a high note, alternating back and forth. You should feel your throat move up and down slightly. Try singing smaller intervals up and down. You should feel even a small interval. Now try it with a few different minimal pair words.
Do you notice that you can get your throat to move up and down (changing the pitch) without changing your volume?
Some teachers recommend this technique for teaching pitch to learners who are having trouble consciously producing words with different pitch. (I think it kind of hurts.) :-)
Considering making a video on Pitch Accent - What do you want to know? - Nuriko - 2012-06-06
Wow, great video! You're so knowledgeable on this topic. Thanks so much for making & posting!
Considering making a video on Pitch Accent - What do you want to know? - KanjiDevourer - 2012-06-07
buonaparte Wrote:[snip]That post was very insightful, thank you!
In Japanese – pitch accent (pitch rises or falls).
@Daichi - perhaps you were confused by an overload of information, but pitch -as far as I know- is nothing more than tone height. "Pitch is a perceptual property that allows the ordering of sounds on a frequency-related scale." [wikipedia] Just say an 'a' and vary the pitch, the height of the tone, and that is a pitch change similar to what happens in pitch accented words.
Considering making a video on Pitch Accent - What do you want to know? - buonaparte - 2012-06-07
If you don't know what pitch is, just sing
do re mi fa sol la. And you'll know.
It has nothing to do with the way you twist your mouth.
Considering making a video on Pitch Accent - What do you want to know? - Daichi - 2012-06-08
Ah yes right. Knowing what pitch means is pretty simple. Knowing how the hell to control that factor of your voice is not. Being that it is something that comes from changing something with your vocal cords and not your mouth isn't really my worry here. I've never really done any singing before. I guess I need to spend some time training myself to be able to change the pitch of my voice. Let's just say it's not something that comes natural to me. Which is the reason for most of my questions.
I do think that's what has bugged me about whenever I've read about pitch accent, is they never took the time to tell you how to change the pitch of your voice. Just that you need to do it. Anyway, thanks for the tips. If anyone has any other advice to offer, please don't hold back.
Considering making a video on Pitch Accent - What do you want to know? - buonaparte - 2012-06-08
Daichi,
I've no idea what you should do - simply because I don't know you.
I can only tell you what I did.
Whenever I start learning a new language I thoroughly read (and listen) about:
1. pronunciation
2. grammar
to get a general idea about what is there to be learnt.
What's more, I never speak before I reach the stage of natural listening to relatively difficult texts.
So, as far as pronunciation goes, I was one of the very few people who knew about pitch accent and all the rules even before I started learning Japanese. But the trouble was I had no proper recordings, no minimal pairs to start with.
But this is no longer a concern of yours, the minimal pairs are here:
http://tisc.isc.u-toyama.ac.jp/pronunciation/contents.html
just listen to the introduction.
I never force production, I never speak or write, until I feel like it.
When I hear something properly, I might try to echo the recording.
So, generally, what I do is described here:
http://users.bestweb.net/~siom/martian_mountain/!%20L-R%20the%20most%20important%20passages.htm#_Toc326247739
There are some books in English that describe the phenomenon quite well.
Just visit this thread and download whatever is necessary:
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?pid=121590#pid121590