Are Cloze tests effective learning tools?

Are Cloze tests effective learning tools? - Printable Version

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Are Cloze tests effective learning tools? - vix86 - 2012-04-04

So I've finished the Core6k and am now revisiting grammar and remembering the pain it caused me. I have the Do[BIA]JG sentence decks and have been debating how to approach the decks. I've set out to get through the Basic cards (~2000) in about 2-3 weeks, so about 150 sentences a day.

Since I am early on in the deck I have the chance to actually modify the cards as I go to fit what ever method I want and this is where I am stuck. I have 3 options.

1) その子はお母さんに叱られました。
2) その子はお母さんに叱られました。
3) その子はお母さん__叱られました。

2 is closer to what I'm use to from my core deck and I like having a "focus" on a card instead of something like #1 which you read the sentence and decide what it means. It also allows for quicker reviewing, but I'm not sure its applicable in the same way that it is for vocab, since you probably will inevitably have to read the sentence anyway.
3 is the obvious cloze sentence.

So I have 2 questions.
1) Which method do you like/do/plan on for focused grammar study and why?
and
2) Is cloze deletion really effective? I didn't jump on cloze tests because something about it still doesn't feel like its a good method for learning grammar. Googling has turned up little; however, I did find this article: http://journals.cluteonline.com/index.php/TLC/article/view/4197 (Full PDF is readable) which suggests that Cloze deletion tests are decent for testing proficiency but don't necessarily aid in learning. If anyone has any articles that suggest otherwise, I'd like to read them.

Are Cloze tests effective learning tools? - nadiatims - 2012-04-04

This is just my opinion of course, but I think what really cements grammar is seeing a lot of different examples. Grammar often isn't black and white, it's fuzzy. So rather than trying to nail down some concrete rule by making and then repeatedly reviewing the same cloze test over and over again. Just read a lot of different sentences and the grammar will click. Remember, grammar is formed by silent consensus. Natives speakers just apply the conventions that everyone else does. Grammar then comes after and describes patterns as best it can. By all means read about grammar, especially reading all the example sentences, but you can't nail down grammar via exercises.

Are Cloze tests effective learning tools? - howtwosavealif3 - 2012-04-04

here's the 3 paged thread on it MCDs
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=9148

Are Cloze tests effective learning tools? - vix86 - 2012-04-04

nadiatims Wrote:but you can't nail down grammar via exercises.

This is what I'm afraid of particularly when it comes to nuance. How do you nail down nuance [effectively]? Especially when a lot of the nuance is more "metadata" than anything else. The other thing I've worried about is whether this means that until I cement it (whenever that is), should I still continue mining sources with correct interpretations of sentences since I can't exactly trust my own "feeling" on semantic meaning; doubly so where nuance is involved. I only ask this cause I've gotten some strong suggestions from people that I should be moving away from J->E cards and just reading stuff J->Nothing or J->J.
--

I've seen the MCD but that is merely a thread about anecdotal feelings on the technique. I want concrete academic data from controlled studies to show its worth my time to bother with cloze as a learning tool. Plenty of studies show that cloze testing is extremely effective at testing a L2 learners proficiency in a language (ie: A teacher wanting to know if a pupil is progressing). However that does not preclude that using it as a tool to learn or continue to cement grammar will be as effective or better than simply have a sentence with a point and a translation on the back.

Are Cloze tests effective learning tools? - dtcamero - 2012-04-04

ok if you want concrete academic data then you need to go and look it up yourself. that's not what this forum is for. this forum at its best is about people sharing experiences on what works and doesn't.

in my experience the type of cloze you're using doesn't give you enough context to figure out something as complex as grammar.

1- the ajatt suggestion is to use a huge amount of text and cloze out the grammar point from within it (hopefully multiple examples of that grammar point). hence the Massive Context part of the mcd. I do think this is relatively effective.

2- nadiatims suggestion is to read a lot with a J-E dictionary and you'll figure out the grammar over time through examples.

3- in the 'vanilla' sentences method you don't really study the grammar, but the idea is to know what every word means, and what the sentence overall means (somehow... yahoo dic gives translations for example)... and that the grammar will come to you as you go along.

other than reading about 100 grammar points in a row, and then forgetting them again until you happen to learn them eventually over time anyway (see idea #2) these seem to be the most well-established ways of learning grammar. Those grammar books are a nice reference and worth a read, but are not good study materials in my opinion.

personally I'd suggest a combination of the 3 above methods until you find what works for you best and stick with that.
以上

Are Cloze tests effective learning tools? - vix86 - 2012-04-04

dtcamero Wrote:ok if you want concrete academic data then you need to go and look it up yourself. that's not what this forum is for. this forum at its best is about people sharing experiences on what works and doesn't.

We have/had some people on the forum that have a background in [applied] linguistics and have a lot more experience in the field. It wouldn't be too hard to believe that maybe one of them has seen something in the literature about cloze as a learning tool. Hence my question about it.

Quote:personally I'd suggest a combination of the 3 above methods until you find what works for you best and stick with that.

Thanks for the input. I've started doing a bit of bolding on parts and I'll see how that works out. My main issue with MCD is its too much stuff on a card and the tendency is to reuse chunks of material over and over (ie: 10 cards or so from one context). Overtime you'll memorize the passage and won't really be testing for cloze, but simply recalling memorized chunks of the sentence. While this happens with everything in your deck, if the sentences approach a critical number, say 1k-2k, it becomes less likely that you will memorize the sentences. I figure it probably depends on how you pass/fail the cards though. If you pass on general semantic correctness of the sentence or the focused term, then you aren't likely to memorize because the interval will space out quickly. However if you are fail whenever you don't match the translation exactly, then you are likely to memorize the sentence completely.

Actually, thinking about it like this and typing it out, I think I pretty much have convinced my self on #1 and #2 method, primarily because I think a cloze deck would actually be very time consuming to review probably. A cloze deck with 7-8k cards would give you about 600-900 young cards constantly after fully maturing everything once (10% forget range), which would mean about 100-150 reviews a day. Assuming you aren't memorizing the sentences on a cloze and you have to read and reason the sentence, that seems like you would expending a lot of time on that deck alone.

I may still do some cloze cards though, I've ran into some places where I can use them already I think.

Are Cloze tests effective learning tools? - dtcamero - 2012-04-04

ya it's not a silver bullet, but in my limited experience nothing is. I thought I'd be doing subs2srs forever when I discovered it, but each kind of card design has its strength and weaknesses and I find using them all (or the ones you like most) helps them reinforce each other.

my experience with mcds is that for young cards you spend a good amount of time skimming the text looking for context for the answer (and this really helps your ability to skim text quickly). As cards mature you spend more time on the ones you know and get to know them better, and then the memory game changes. What was a game about guessing based on context becomes a memory game based on the flow of that particular sentence and the 5 or so words before and after. Both are relevant exercises in my opinion and maybe that is the strength of the MCD, in that it becomes several games at once, in an elegantly simple model.

to break that down a bit and be more specific, re your question of "isn't this just a memory game of a specific sentence" hence I'm not learning valuable grammar... Khatz has answered the question here:
user's question: “On the subject of MCDs, I have simply avoided them because I fear that I won’t actually be reading entire sentences any more and just working from memory. I understand that is the point but I can’t shake this sense that I need to read entire, grammatically correct sentences and not just notice context for single words. It seems like a return to single word flashcards in that sense (I understand obviously they are way better)."
Oh, coz, heaven forbid you should use your memory. That would be a travesty. Judas Priest — What do you think is happening when you read English? You’re just remixing pre-memorized chunks of English. You’ve memorized letters, words, phrases, sentences and passages. Memorization is not the opposite of learning and understanding: it is the foundation. Learning is memorization.
Untwist the panties: post-memorization, you’re not going to be a dumb machine, unable to make inferences. That’s not how human memory works. You can’t help but be creative and associative with what you know (i.e. have memorized).
At the same time, you can’t afford to clog your neural machinery with too much low-level inference-making. Or were you planning on deriving grammar rules like some stupid fifth grade geometry theorem every time you open your mouth to speak Japanese? Coz, good luck with that.
"I can’t shake this sense that I need to read entire, grammatically correct sentences"
MCDs don’t stop you doing that.

I would tend to agree with this (very sarcastic) response that there is another (different) game that takes place after the card matures and that it has equivalent value as well. I would also say that there is no reason to get all nervous about trying a new method. try it... you'll be able to tell pretty quickly if you're not learning anything. And it's going to be a hell of a lot more educational than anything anyone on this forum can tell you.

Also don't worry about having a high card count with mcds... they take about 1/3 the time of a normal card (and 1/20th the time of some of my Subs2SRS cards) so you can burn through them quickly. This is another strong point... like antimoon says you want to make the thing you are testing yourself on in each card as simple as possible... this is the most efficient way to learn the material.

Are Cloze tests effective learning tools? - kainzero - 2012-04-04

my experience:
-i've been using cloze from jlpt workbook sample tests, definitely helps for tests, as you stated.
-on the backside of the card i try to include some point on why that grammar is used as well as all the rules. i don't review the cards in-depth but if i'm ever lost as to why it is that or why it's not something else, then it's right there for me. i use whatever explanation is best for me; sometimes it's in japanese, sometimes it's in english.
-for using grammar i find that it isn't really effective because i hardly see these advanced jlpt grammar points in real life, so i'm confused as to when i would actually write or talk like that when i can use simple stuff that i know is right. it might be helpful if you don't have your grammar basics down, for example, your grammar card if you keep forgetting what particle you need for passive tense.
-for understanding grammar it kinda helps but i'm not sure how different it is from a recall card. a couple of recall cards and regular exposure in real life is usually best imo.

Are Cloze tests effective learning tools? - Fillanzea - 2012-04-04

dtcamero, I'm not a professional linguist (I did major in linguistics in undergrad) but that doesn't accord real well with my understanding of how the brain processes language.

You can read more about this in Stephen Pinker's language books (The Language Instinct, Words and Rules) but I think the data suggest pretty strongly that we're not "remixing pre-memorized chunks," but rather, hearing enough data so that our brain derives a rule, and only memorizing exceptions to that rule. (This is why children who haven't heard enough English to memorize irregular verbs will say "holded" and "bited," for example).

I don't think that means cloze deletions aren't useful for grammar, though. They can certainly be useful when you understand the grammar involved but don't have enough practice with it to produce it on command (especially when, say, you're dealing with a language that has a lot of irregular verbs and a lot of different conjugations.)

Are Cloze tests effective learning tools? - dtcamero - 2012-04-04

@Fillanzea, well that is an interesting hypothesis that I hadn't heard of before... sounds totally plausible. As far as I know though, the way the brain absorbs and produces language is still a pretty gigantic grey area within academia.

I feel like my experience with my L2, which is still <3 years fresh, functions in the way Khatz describes... patching 1 or 2 well known patterns together to make a sentence. One ends up with pretty native-sounding speech that way... However that is definitely not how I (and I assume everyone) work within my L1... As a native speaker I operate similarly to how you describe, knowing rules and memorizing exceptions. So maybe it's both, each at different levels of familiarity perhaps.

I have to say though that above the rules and exceptions framework you laid out... there is just 'feeling' for grammar. And that feeling comes from 1. familiarity, and 2. a predictive ability. The familiarity can only come through tons of input, but that predictive power is something I think MCDs are really great for. Taking several 3-paragraph sections of text, and removing the に,が,は,それとも,~になる,~にする,~がする,~として etc., one for each card, becomes a great exercise for predicting when to use those grammar points while writing.　

Are Cloze tests effective learning tools? - Inny Jan - 2012-04-04

Quote:2) その子はお母さんに叱られました。

and

Quote:3) その子はお母さん__叱られました。

are completely different. With the former you test your passive grammar, with the later active one. If you are happy with passive understanding of Japanese (ie. you only care about reading/listening) then 2) is sufficient. But if you want to be able to produce grammatically correct Japanese phrases then I'm pretty sure 2) is not enough. Actually even 3) is not going to help you much as it is not completely clear what do you want to say there (for example, the close can be に or から, I think).

Are Cloze tests effective learning tools? - IceCream - 2012-04-05

yes, they're effective. I don't think MCD is the most effective way of doing it, because the object shouldn't be to cue the piece of grammar from the context of a large card, but to cue the right grammar from just what it relevent in the sentence. Right, it's probably a bit harder, but it seems like it would be more effective.

At the moment, i'm using Yabla, which has a sort of listening game where you listen to the sentence and fill in the blanks. I'm finding it really helpful for learning grammar. Because the things i get wrong often are things like whether something should be plural, or how the verb ending agrees with who is doing the thing.

e.g. one question might be:
"on ne ___ plus te voir", and the answer is "veut"

but then another question will be "je ne ___ plus te voir", i type in "veut", get it wrong, wonder why it's "veux" instead here, and then learn that it's "veux" with "je" and "veut" with "on". etc.

Are Cloze tests effective learning tools? - Inny Jan - 2012-04-05

dtcamero Wrote:Khatz has answered the question here:

I'm not sure about this thread now...

You see, the fate of any thread mentioning Khatz is pretty much determined - TBH, what Khatz is talking about is rubbish.

Are Cloze tests effective learning tools? - IceCream - 2012-04-05

EDIT: the reason i think MCD's are less effective is that i've noticed that especially with SRS, my brain will be as lazy as i allow it to be. And it's very good at finding ways to be lazy. e.g. if it recognies the shape of a card or a fun expression on it, it'll fill in the blank without even looking for the relevent information it should need to fill it in. So, sticking to only what is necessary to be able to fill in the blank correctly limits that problem a great deal.

I'm not saying you *can't* learn from MCD... in fact the method of learning should be the same as it is for normal cloze deletion. Just that your brain will take shortcuts, and for that reason, it's probably not as effective as a small cloze delete card.

Are Cloze tests effective learning tools? - nadiatims - 2012-04-05

I think when we speak, we are essentially going on past experience. At least when we are speaking automatically. We choose and arrange the words the way we do based on an ingrained understanding that that is the way the other person (and other members of society) also does. It's basically just parroting. When we need to say original utterances that is when we start reshuffling things. We know that people say "I go to" followed by a place, so when we want to express going to the park we take a guess that if we say "I go to the park", it will be understood. Grammar is just an attempt to describe the patterns that emerge from this complex mess of everybody conforming to certain standards in order to communicate. But because people are constantly having to create original utterances, everybody interprets messages differently and everyone has different levels of experience these emergant patterns are constantly changing.

I think it's important to realize that understanding a pattern because you've seen it demonstrated and explained to by a book/teacher and keep it as an abstraction somewhere in your brain is something completely different to having the pattern deeply ingrained in the form of memory and experience. This kind of understanding I think is a very data heavy and sensory thing, what some people would consider 'right brain', where as grammar as abstraction would be more 'left brain.' Grammar as abstraction can be seen as a kind of 'hack' that helps you attempt to create and interpret original utterances for which you don't yet have significant data to interpret. But just because you've managed to interpret or create the utterance by applying the abstract grammar doesn't automatically cause it to become ingrained as occurs with experience. When speaking fluently we're not accessing and then applying our learned abstract grammar description, we're doing something much deeper and more linked with memory I think. Real comprehension and fluency comes as we build up this deep intuitive database of experience and grammar abstraction is just something to help as us interpret messages when we lack experience. In this way I think you are fooling yourself if you think real language ability can be installed by memorizing abstract rules. When you consciously apply grammar when reading for example, or when trying to figure out how to say something, that is something different that real language use imo.

Are Cloze tests effective learning tools? - vix86 - 2012-04-05

Inny Jan Wrote:Actually even 3) is not going to help you much as it is not completely clear what do you want to say there (for example, the close can be に or から, I think).

I forgot to include it in my OP, but this is another point that nags at me about cloze cards. Its very similar to trying to E->J vocab testing. You can fill in a slot with many potential answers and they could be all correct, which is fine if you are in a Japanese class being tested by the teacher. However, if I"m trying to reinforce specific patterns constructs, I don't want to have to remember the sentence to be able to fill that in.

Your point on passive vs active is also good and something that hadn't occurred to me honestly. Its also a point of issue I'm still considering since I do reading cards only for my vocab decks so its a similar issue with reading->listening comprehension. I believe passive recognition can eventually bleed over into active production, but its probably slower, though I imagine its "stronger" than active since much of the production would likely be finely ingrained "subconscious pattern matching" (ie: You produce the construct without thinking about it or knowing the conscious rule for it. My vocab production&recognition functions like this now and its creepy).

Are Cloze tests effective learning tools? - nadiatims - 2012-04-05

why would you consider that creepy? That's what language acquisition is. If it's not becoming automatic like that then you're not becoming a fluent speaker of the language, but rather some kind of translation robot.

Are Cloze tests effective learning tools? - Fillanzea - 2012-04-05

A few things that we know about first language acquisition:

(I'm not saying that any of this necessarily applies to second language acquisition; it's still a matter that's up for debate. The evidence is much more unequivocal when it comes to first language acquisition because everybody does it and everyone does it without studying, without being aware of what they're doing.)

-When you have a lot of speakers of different languages who have to communicate with each other -- for example, on plantations where the owners deliberately brought in slaves from different language groups so they wouldn't be able to plot rebellions together -- the first generations develops a pidgin to be able to communicate. A pidgin is initially basically words with no grammar; there's no enforced word order, certainly not cases or conjugations. But the second generation, who grows up with their parents speaking the pidgin -- they turn it into a creole, which actually has a grammar.

-Very young children learning to speak will say things that they never heard from their parents/guardians. Overregularizing irregular verbs is an example of that, but also things like leaving off the possessive 's ("daddy book" rather than "daddy's book") and using "no [verb]" for negation instead of "don't" or "won't."

I think that those, among others, are pretty good pieces of evidence that at least where first language acquisition is concerned, we're relying on a mental model of grammar that our brain builds up. This is different from a conscious application of a rule -- it's unconscious and automatic.

I think this is in Pinker's Words and Rules -- there was actually a study done of how long it takes our brains to access past tenses for irregular and regular verbs. Turns out that for regular verbs, common and uncommon, it took the same amount of time to retrieve the past tense: just how long it takes your brain to take the verb and add "ed" to it. For irregular verbs, common ones like "go" and "come" were actually faster than regular verbs (because the irregular forms are stored in memory and don't require any additional computation), but the uncommon ones were slower (their forms are stored in memory too, but they take longer to access because we don't see them as often.)

The big question is still, do our brains process languages learned later in life the same way our brains process our first languages? Do we retain that ability to build an unconscious mental model of a grammar? I don't have the answer to that.

And it also doesn't have a lot to do with cloze deletion.

So I'll shut up now.

Are Cloze tests effective learning tools? - vix86 - 2012-04-05

nadiatims Wrote:why would you consider that creepy? That's what language acquisition is. If it's not becoming automatic like that then you're not becoming a fluent speaker of the language, but rather some kind of translation robot.

Its creepy to me because everything I have ever known has been consciously accessible. Figuratively speaking, if I need to call up a bit of history knowledge, I know where to dig it out and can judge myself on probably how well I'm recalling it. Ever since I started Core though and have done nearly 50,000 reps on my cards, words have entered a part of memory in my head where its not consciously accessible, at least when I'm reading. For instance, when I run into　根拠, for example, in my deck usually something pops into my head--こんきょ-- then I stop assess that bit and might go "No theres no way its こんきょ　its がんきょ, I'm pretty sure." and I check the card and its really　こんきょ. This happens so much now that I trust my first/instinctual guess because I figure its probably right and it usually is. What still creeps me out though is when I'm talking to people and I'm digging for one of the more less uncommon words like 治療 or 推薦 and the word just "appears" and I'll say it and maybe sort of question it and people nod and basically say that it makes sense. Later on I'll check back and its usually the word I wanted or close enough semantically. Its the fact that the words are now existing in implicit memory and can't necessarily be polled consciously for information like something that's explicit. That's creepy because nothing else I know is like that except my first language.

Are Cloze tests effective learning tools? - Splatted - 2012-04-05

I know how you feel, but it's nothing compared to watching yourself play an instrument. I love learning fast pieces and then just standing in front of a mirror as I play. I watch my hands and think "I have no idea why they're doing that." It's really creepy. XD

Are Cloze tests effective learning tools? - dtcamero - 2012-04-05

Inny Jan Wrote:
dtcamero Wrote:Khatz has answered the question here:
I'm not sure about this thread now...

You see, the fate of any thread mentioning Khatz is pretty much determined - TBH, what Khatz is talking about is rubbish.

well lets be even more honest here... This thread is talking about MCDs, an acronym created by this rubbish guy, which relates to a very specific study method also created by this rubbish guy,... and we've been discussing the pros and cons of this method in great detail for some time now. how rubbish we all must be for ever caring~!
I wasn't quoting him like the group's teacher, with the definitive correct answer... it happens to be his invention so I thought perhaps his opinion would be helpful.

@ice cream, I think one of the problems of the short MCDs (or just 'sentence-cloze cards' perhaps is a better term) is that the cloze in itself is rather ambiguous... as the Vix points out the answer could be many things. The MCD format still gives you the sentence-cloze you would have had otherwise, but it also gives you add'l context to see exactly where that sentence is coming from and what its meaning exactly is... before you need to fill in the blank.
A really good grammar MCD would also give you one or more other clozed examples of that grammar point within the same card...

Are Cloze tests effective learning tools? - kainzero - 2012-04-05

Fillanzea Wrote:And it also doesn't have a lot to do with cloze deletion.

So I'll shut up now.

i know we go off topic a lot but really, 1st language acquisition and what we can carry over for 2nd language acquisition and how cloze delete applies is pretty relevant.

as far as japanese goes, there are times when i just speak off the cuff without thinking and i feel really comfortable, but for the most part i speak really slowly and deliberately and employing the "filter" that krashen refers to because my ability isn't that great.
cloze delete may help with the filter part though.

IceCream Wrote:my brain will be as lazy as i allow it to be. And it's very good at finding ways to be lazy. e.g. if it recognies the shape of a card or a fun expression on it, it'll fill in the blank without even looking for the relevent information it should need to fill it in.

you can call it lazy but i think the brain is just being efficient. =)

Are Cloze tests effective learning tools? - IceCream - 2012-04-05

dtcamero Wrote:@ice cream, I think one of the problems of the short MCDs (or just 'sentence-cloze cards' perhaps is a better term) is that the cloze in itself is rather ambiguous... as the Vix points out the answer could be many things. The MCD format still gives you the sentence-cloze you would have had otherwise, but it also gives you add'l context to see exactly where that sentence is coming from and what its meaning exactly is... before you need to fill in the blank.
A really good grammar MCD would also give you one or more other clozed examples of that grammar point within the same card...

yeah, that can be a problem, i'm not suggesting you should under-specify what the answer should be, only that you don't put more than is really necessary.

Honestly, i don't really see the problem with using English on cards (front OR back). I don't think it's going to turn anyone into some kind of translation machine or anything. That's certainly not what's happened with reading and listening for me, anyway. The English just falls away as you no longer need it.

So, on balance, i'd rather put in an English cue than a whole paragraph of Japanese, just because it's more likely to test the grammar point needed than a paragraph would.

I think context is great, it really is necessary, for tons of things in learning a language!!! Just not cloze delete, particularly...

Are Cloze tests effective learning tools? - Fillanzea - 2012-04-05

According to Krashen, deliberate grammar study (whether that's cloze deletion or another method) would help with the filter, but that's really only going to help you in contexts where you have time beforehand to edit yourself -- writing and making prepared speeches, for example. Trying to speak spontaneously while employing the filter means that you speak really slowly and awkwardly, or the the whole time your conversation partner is speaking you're not really listening to them, you're working out the grammar of what you're going to say next.

There are a lot of ESL speakers who come to the library where I work -- I have better conversations with the people who can speak quickly and communicatively even though their grammar is awful, than the people who talk really slowly because they're groping around for the right grammar.

(Krashen would also say that "learned" grammar doesn't turn into "acquired" grammar, the kind of grammar that your brain knows at a deep, intuitive level -- that's probably a controversial point, and not something I could back up.)

Are Cloze tests effective learning tools? - kainzero - 2012-04-05

i feel like i filter output but not input, if that makes any sense.

for speaking certain grammar points i'm not sure if clozing would really help. in particular i always come back to ほど because i struggled to learn it.

in english i'd think "he is so strong that he could lift 300 lbs" but in japanese you have to think backwards like "lift 300 lbs strong, he is." and clozing ほど wouldn't really help because you have to rearrange your idea differently in your head as opposed to english.

however, i'm finding more and more that "advanced" grammar in the jlpt sense is actually really simple, as it just seems like basic grammar remixed with new conditions and perhaps a different tone.