+- kanji koohii FORUM (http://forum.koohii.com)
+-- Forum: Learning Japanese (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: JLPT, Jobs & College in Japan (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-12.html)
+--- Thread: Computer/It Industry in Japan? (/thread-9230.html)
Computer/It Industry in Japan? - j814wong - 2012-03-24
Currently, how's the computer/IT industry in Japan?
What is expected of it in 5 years?
Is it really a nightmare to work for a Japanese company? Would it be best to work for a foreign firm in Japan?
What can a person with fluent Japanese, bachelor degree in Computer Science and 5 years experience in the field of CS make? What sort of special skills that are rare are in high demand that are hard to find even among native Japanese?
Some people say that the Japanese don't like foreigners but I think this only applies to the older generation as opposed to the younger ones who seem to love Western culture.
I want to move to Japan someday or at least am considering it.
Computer/It Industry in Japan? - vix86 - 2012-03-24
j814wong Wrote:Currently, how's the computer/IT industry in Japan?Ask yourself, How many IT companies from Japan can you name that are making (good) headlines like Facebook, Google, Appke, Microsoft, Cisco, etc.?
Quote:What is expected of it in 5 years?Same thing that was expected 5 years ago but still hasn't reached. I have heard some industries are looking to foreigners to hopefully add something to the companies and maybe spark a bit of change, but I am a bit skeptical.
Quote:Is it really a nightmare to work for a Japanese company? Would it be best to work for a foreign firm in Japan?That depends on the company. Its my understanding that Japanese business culture is still very prevalent in Japan, if not worse. Come in early, leave late. Monday to Saturday. Western companies can be way way better in this prospect but then you are dealing with western corp. culture.
Quote:What sort of special skills that are rare are in high demand that are hard to find even among native Japanese?If you are talking about having those skills now then I'm sure someone can offer something up. However if you are talking about skills in 5 years...who knows what the industry will look like then. IT changes so fast.
Quote:I want to move to Japan someday or at least am considering it.Breaking into an industry outside of teaching, in Japan, can be extremely difficult. Part of the reason is that as a foreigner you are likely to have to go alternate routes for a position at a Japanese company that Japanese people wouldn't do. Japanese usually job hunt leading up to graduation in college and apply to anywhere around 50-80 companies looking for a spot. Many of my friends from college are currently doing this and some are freaking out on Facebook about it. Foreigners don't go this route.
Your best bet for a job in Japan, if you are currently working in the industry is to look at whats hot and needed in the industry in the West now, and hone your skills on that.
Remember, if a Japanese company is going to hire you, they are going to have a very very good reason for hiring a foreigner over a native speaking Japanese person; be it some very special skill set or what not. Always keep that in mind.
Computer/It Industry in Japan? - mezbup - 2012-03-24
Quote:Breaking into an industry outside of teaching, in Japan, can be extremely difficult. Part of the reason is that as a foreigner you are likely to have to go alternate routes for a position at a Japanese company that Japanese people wouldn't do. Japanese usually job hunt leading up to graduation in college and apply to anywhere around 50-80 companies looking for a spot. Many of my friends from college are currently doing this and some are freaking out on Facebook about it. Foreigners don't go this route.This is really true. Japanese only trust Japanese because thats all they know. It's not that they don't like foreigners it's more that they don't like things that are different than what they know because they feel very uncomfortable with the uncertainty of difference.
Your best bet for a job in Japan, if you are currently working in the industry is to look at whats hot and needed in the industry in the West now, and hone your skills on that.
Remember, if a Japanese company is going to hire you, they are going to have a very very good reason for hiring a foreigner over a native speaking Japanese person; be it some very special skill set or what not. Always keep that in mind.
Having contacts will help you out immensely. Someone to back you who says "you can trust this guy".
Japanese aren't interested in foreigners being a part of Japan but will turn to them when their help (or in this case skills) are needed. Essentially they are going to hire you because you bring something to the table that they can't find in Japan. It kinda feels like you're almost a last resort. At the end of the day, it can feel quite cold.
Computer/It Industry in Japan? - lardycake - 2012-03-24
I am the same boat as you with the comp sci background and desire to go to Japan. I have been looking at this for a while.
It is very doable, but it is hard and likely won't be what you are expecting.
Routes I have explored are:
- Graduate degree in Japan + MEXT scholarship - You can probably get a better degree in your own country and there is no advantage to doing it in Japan
- JET - Worth a shot if you don't mind teaching English for a bit. Maybe you will get lucky and be accepted, but then you have no choice over the location you are sent to.
- Getting a job - Why will they employ some random guy from another country? It is doable if you have the right connections or your company has an office there, or if you have some sought after skill
The best options I have discovered seem to be:
- Just save up and go for a long holiday, backpacking, etc.
- Doing a degree at a uni that offers a placement year in Japan
Computer/It Industry in Japan? - nadiatims - 2012-03-24
mezbup Wrote:Japanese aren't interested in foreigners being a part of Japan but will turn to them when their help (or in this case skills) are needed. Essentially they are going to hire you because you bring something to the table that they can't find in Japan. It kinda feels like you're almost a last resort. At the end of the day, it can feel quite cold.this is BS. If you have the skills and you're japanese is good enough to give them the impression you you'll be easy to work with, and you can demonstrate that you're going to stick around for a while, plenty of companies are happy to hire foreigners. If anything when you can speak japanese very well, a lot of japanese people start kissing your arsee and think you're a bit of a genius. If you apply through the normal channels, submit CVs in japanese, perform well in a japanese interview, demonstrate appropriate manners, keigo etc you get major points.
Computer/It Industry in Japan? - kitakitsune - 2012-03-24
nadiatims Wrote:It's not really BS because it is nearly unheard of for a foreigner to take the steps you describe and being offered a 正社員 position. Sure you might get hired, but you will only be offered yearly contracts with benefits lower than the regular employees. In short, you will always be considered a type of second-class employee.mezbup Wrote:Japanese aren't interested in foreigners being a part of Japan but will turn to them when their help (or in this case skills) are needed. Essentially they are going to hire you because you bring something to the table that they can't find in Japan. It kinda feels like you're almost a last resort. At the end of the day, it can feel quite cold.this is BS. If you have the skills and you're japanese is good enough to give them the impression you you'll be easy to work with, and you can demonstrate that you're going to stick around for a while, plenty of companies are happy to hire foreigners. If anything when you can speak japanese very well, a lot of japanese people start kissing your arsee and think you're a bit of a genius. If you apply through the normal channels, submit CVs in japanese, perform well in a japanese interview, demonstrate appropriate manners, keigo etc you get major points.
Computer/It Industry in Japan? - kitakitsune - 2012-03-24
Does anyone here know any foreigners hired in the IT industry in Japan, at a domestic firm and not a transfer from an office abroad, who has 正社員 status?
I know a half a dozen people working in the industry but not one who doesn't have a year-to-year contract. Some of them have permanent residency and even worked for the company for nearly 10 years now...still no protected status.
Computer/It Industry in Japan? - mezbup - 2012-03-24
nadiatims Wrote:You know, I don't dispute any of that. You are right about what you say. However, what you say still doesn't dispute the fact that the Japanese aren't interested in foreigners becoming PART of Japan. Some of the above posts illustrate what I'm talking about in a way.mezbup Wrote:Japanese aren't interested in foreigners being a part of Japan but will turn to them when their help (or in this case skills) are needed. Essentially they are going to hire you because you bring something to the table that they can't find in Japan. It kinda feels like you're almost a last resort. At the end of the day, it can feel quite cold.this is BS. If you have the skills and you're japanese is good enough to give them the impression you you'll be easy to work with, and you can demonstrate that you're going to stick around for a while, plenty of companies are happy to hire foreigners. If anything when you can speak japanese very well, a lot of japanese people start kissing your arsee and think you're a bit of a genius. If you apply through the normal channels, submit CVs in japanese, perform well in a japanese interview, demonstrate appropriate manners, keigo etc you get major points.
I think part of the problem lies in them kissing your arse and thinking you're a genius. If they think you're a genius for doing something considered so utterly mundane to 99.99% of the population they obviously aren't looking at you with the same eyes as they are everyone else. If, like in English speaking countries, foreigners speaking the native language were a dime a dozen and them coming to a job interview was a regular occurrence then they wouldn't bat an eyelid at "how much of a genius" you are. You would be accepted. Instead it's as if a talking dog with IT skills showed up to the inverview... i'd be like holyyy shit too. Whichever way you look at it, that's basically how we come across and I won't let you call bullshit on that one.
This is a total double edged sword and it's up to the individual how to interperet / use it / feel about it. I'm just looking at the truth and reading between the lines and to be honest, I don't like what it says between those lines.
Computer/It Industry in Japan? - nadiatims - 2012-03-24
kitakitsune Wrote:Does anyone here know any foreigners hired in the IT industry in Japan, at a domestic firm and not a transfer from an office abroad, who has 正社員 status?I work for an IT company, and have been promised 正社員 status when my current contract comes to an end.
I know a half a dozen people working in the industry but not one who doesn't have a year-to-year contract. Some of them have permanent residency and even worked for the company for nearly 10 years now...still no protected status.
Computer/It Industry in Japan? - JimmySeal - 2012-03-24
mezbup Wrote:If they think you're a genius for doing something considered so utterly mundane to 99.99% of the populationI don't think that learning and using a second language is considered utterly mundane to 99.99% of the population.
Computer/It Industry in Japan? - kitakitsune - 2012-03-24
nadiatims Wrote:Congrats on being among the top 1% of foreigners to get that status.kitakitsune Wrote:Does anyone here know any foreigners hired in the IT industry in Japan, at a domestic firm and not a transfer from an office abroad, who has 正社員 status?I work for an IT company, and have been promised 正社員 status when my current contract comes to an end.
I know a half a dozen people working in the industry but not one who doesn't have a year-to-year contract. Some of them have permanent residency and even worked for the company for nearly 10 years now...still no protected status.
Computer/It Industry in Japan? - mezbup - 2012-03-24
JimmySeal Wrote:I meant that to the Japanese, speaking Japanese is 当たり前. It's obvious that Japanese is spoken in Japan so when someone speaks Japanese it should be no big deal and most of the time it isn't, except in our case.mezbup Wrote:If they think you're a genius for doing something considered so utterly mundane to 99.99% of the populationI don't think that learning and using a second language is considered utterly mundane to 99.99% of the population.
Computer/It Industry in Japan? - JimmySeal - 2012-03-24
mezbup Wrote:I know what you meant, but it's an invalid point. They're reacting to someone learning and using Japanese as a second language, not using Japanese period.JimmySeal Wrote:I meant that to the Japanese, speaking Japanese is 当たり前. It's obvious that Japanese is spoken in Japan so when someone speaks Japanese it should be no big deal and most of the time it isn't, except in our case.mezbup Wrote:If they think you're a genius for doing something considered so utterly mundane to 99.99% of the populationI don't think that learning and using a second language is considered utterly mundane to 99.99% of the population.
Computer/It Industry in Japan? - SomeCallMeChris - 2012-03-25
mezbup Wrote:I meant that to the Japanese, speaking Japanese is 当たり前. It's obvious that Japanese is spoken in Japan so when someone speaks Japanese it should be no big deal and most of the time it isn't, except in our case.If you are a foreigner with good Japanese skills, than you should have at least 3 important skills - your career skill (IT or whatever), fluency in your native language, fluency in Japanese.
I'm also not at all sure that being able to present yourself well in written and spoken language is 当たり前 even for natives. It certainly isn't in English. I've been involved in interviews from time to time, and I've read some of the things that passed for B/C papers in University courses. Being able to communicate basic needs is a given in your native language, but being -articulate- is another matter altogether.
It's also pretty much automatic (if inaccurate) to equate how articulate someone is with how intelligent they are. If you are articulate in Japanese, then the impression will be that you're brilliant in your native language and extremely sharp in your field of specialty. It may not be true - but that will be the impression that you will give, and even people who think critically and know it's a superficial judgment are still likely to be swayed by that impression.
Of course, I'm not in Japan and don't have a proper idea what the rate of university graduates is or how many of them are articulate in proper, polite, suitable for the boardroom speech - I'm speaking essentially from my experience (in English) on both sides of the interview table and a couple career shifts and side-paths to see a fair bit of the hiring process.
Computer/It Industry in Japan? - caivano - 2012-03-25
mezbup Wrote:You know, I don't dispute any of that. You are right about what you say. However, what you say still doesn't dispute the fact that the Japanese aren't interested in foreigners becoming PART of Japan. Some of the above posts illustrate what I'm talking about in a way.It's ridiculous to generalise anything by using 'the Japanese.'
and the thing with speaking Japanese isn't so much that you can speak Japanese but Japanese and English, of course everyone else can speak Japanese but they can't speak English too. So if you target internationally operating companies, of which there are many, speaking English + Japanese is a huge plus. Studying Japanese as a foreigner and then aiming for the jobs a normal Japanese person would get and not using English is not maximising your skills imo. I guess it's strange to think of your native language as a skill but in Japan it is really, I guess it's more being bilingual, but by only using Japanese you a not utilising being bilingual.
Computer/It Industry in Japan? - KallistiX - 2012-03-25
I am working for a Japanese company's U.S. extension, but have spent a couple of weeks in Tokyo (not nearly enough...) so I can tell you what little I have.
The company I work for is in dire need of more mobile phone programmers, particularly iOS. It seems that they couldn't find enough of them in Tokyo so they bought the company I work for (in the US). I would guess that this lack of mobile programmers will equal out over time, but there it is for now.
The economy in Japan has been pretty weak for a long time now. The mobile networks are making a lot of money, and some video game makers are doing well, but it's not going well for most.
Work conditions are severe in Japan. They regularly work hours that I haven't seen since I left the console game industry, and when they have crunch time, they really mean it. They also don't follow very good engineering practices (no unit testing, formal qa...) , but that might just be my company. I am glad to be working for them in a remote capacity, I get lots of exposure to Japanese people and culture but can actually go home at night.
There are a few non-Japanese people (I personally know three) in the Tokyo office, and they are full employees. I don't know if this is because the company is new and thus doesn't follow traditions, or something else. My knowledge of real Japanese culture is pretty weak, that's why I'm here.
Computer/It Industry in Japan? - vix86 - 2012-03-25
Language has kind of came in and out of the talk in this thread, but I want to (re)iterate something that needs to be said if it wasn't already clear.
Knowing Japanese won't magically land you a job in most industries. This is not the 80's or 90's where there are tons of jobs available and few foreigners to really film them where they need them. You need SKILLS these days. A foreigner with 1級 level Japanese is not some rare animal anymore, there are tons of people in Japan now that speak Japanese well enough.
Do not believe for a moment that simply being N1 is going to magically have people knocking your door down begging you to come work for them.
Computer/It Industry in Japan? - Hashiriya - 2012-03-25
I totally agree.. skills are definitely a must. There are very few things that N1 is going to do for anyone going to Japan right now. It might land you a job at a crappy English school, airport, or hotel company at best. I would advise anybody beginning college in the near future to stay away from majoring in Japanese (like me). It's only valuable as a minor. For the computer industry, iOS seems like the big thing these days.
Computer/It Industry in Japan? - pm215 - 2012-03-25
KallistiX Wrote:They also don't follow very good engineering practices (no unit testing, formal qa...) , but that might just be my company.I think that applies to a lot of non-Japanese software companies, too...
Computer/It Industry in Japan? - dizmox - 2012-03-25
lardycake Wrote:- Graduate degree in Japan + MEXT scholarship - You can probably get a better degree in your own country and there is no advantage to doing it in JapanIf you want to get a job/spend time in Japan then doing 2 years of graduate school there seems like a good idea to me. It's relatively easy for foreigners to get into Japanese graduate schools from my impressions/experience. Unless you insist on going to some world leading faculty at Harvard/Cambridge instead of Kyoto/Tokyo, I don't think there's good reason to look down on what's available.