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+--- Thread: forgetting grammar till later (/thread-9212.html)
forgetting grammar till later - semperanimus - 2012-03-19
if I just memorize the x most common thousand words without doing any major grammar study would the intermediate/basic levels of grammar cover themselves from whatching anime/listening to podcasts? or should I do an intentful study of grammar?
forgetting grammar till later - Splatted - 2012-03-19
Studying some basic grammar now will save you a lot of trouble. You don't need to understand it perfectly. Just try to get a basic feel for how things work and use that to tackle some native/learner material.
I find that intensive grammar study doesn't work. Instead I'd just read a bit of your chosen grammar resource each day (or few days, depending on how much time you have), and then look out for examples of what you've learned in other material.
P.s. I used Tae Kim's grammar guide.
forgetting grammar till later - overture2112 - 2012-03-19
Splatted Wrote:Studying some basic grammar now will save you a lot of trouble.I agree with Splatted and can't recommend JtMW enough. It provides you without enough fundamentals to start tackling subs2srs sentences but is still short enough that it only takes about a week to work through.
After that, if you can't understand something well enough just suspend / mark them and then review those later with a grammar reference like the Dictionary of Basic/Intermediate/Advanced Japanese Grammar books.
forgetting grammar till later - Tzadeck - 2012-03-19
Study grammar.
forgetting grammar till later - merlin.codex - 2012-03-19
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forgetting grammar till later - vix86 - 2012-03-19
This is a bit tricky. I believe you should go to Tae Kim's site and study the Basic and Essential grammar. Get a feel for those grammar. Really you only need to know how conjugate verbs and know how some of the particles function. Anything you don't know you can fill in as you go.
After that I would say study vocabulary. I've done something much like this myself. I decided to stop worrying about the grammar so much and just study the Core6k deck. I already had some years of grammar study under my belt though, and knew the basics. After going through the deck I would say that people should probably prioritize vocab over grammar if they have to choose between the two and look up any grammar that has them confused as they go. You can piece sentence meanings together by knowing the words in the sentence, but you can't piece a meaning together with just grammar.
forgetting grammar till later - matrixofdynamism - 2012-03-19
Understanding the basic grammar like vix86 said is absolutel essential. Atleast the very conjugations and other basic things used to say e.g "I like car", "This was cold", "Who are you", "I want to eat" e.t.c
forgetting grammar till later - jankensan - 2012-03-20
I was curious about this myself, so I asked a few Japanese friends if studying Japanese grammar really made any difference to their communications with foreigners speaking Japanese. (Back story: I had been using Japanese without studying much grammar for a few years. I went back to university to do postgrad study, which included Japanese modules. So now when I talk to them I have a LOT of grammar study under my belt)
The general answer (with some exceptions) was that talking to me before grammar study, I could be understood in general terms, but the nuance of what I was saying was unclear and confusing. Sometimes without a grasp of grammar people can sound a bit rough and crude, but a better grasp of grammar allows a more controlled understanding rather than just 'communication'. One friend also commented that talking to people who have learnt all their Japanese from anime and manga is a lot of fun, but she didn't comment on how she perceived their ability in Japanese.
My opinion is that unless you want people to understand nuances, and to be able to understand their nuances, they key to communication is vocabulary, not grammar. I want to sound more proficient than I do now, so I see studying grammar as a means to an end.
forgetting grammar till later - sikieiki - 2012-03-20
Theres no need to formally study anything.
Look things up that perk your interest or are new to you, whether it be grammar, vocabulary, or something that seems like a proverb. Formal study isnt likely to help since the patterns and words wont sink in without seeing them a lot of times in different scenarios, which wont likely be the case in formal study.
Look up on demand if necessary.
Eventually you will cover most basic grammar points, and likely a bunch of advanced ones without knowing it.
forgetting grammar till later - Fillanzea - 2012-03-20
I don't think that formally studying grammar is necessary BUT I do think you need a context where you can hear very simple sentences and understand what they mean. And if you are just a beginner you will not get that from watching anime and listening to podcasts (or any other kind of material for native speakers.) You need to understand at least the very basics of how a sentence is put together.
forgetting grammar till later - Nukemarine - 2012-03-20
All aspects of language study have diminishing returns. About 800 hundred Kanji are used in 90% of the words you'll ever see, 1500 words that populate 90% of the sentences and a few dozen grammar points cover 90% of the sentence styles (statistics pulled out of my ass, but there are compiled lists that show I'm close). To not formally study at least those is being counter productive.
After that point, to use native material in your area of interest to find which kanji, words, grammar, four character terms, sayings, etc is not a bad idea. On the other hand, it's just as legit as continuing formal study to move that 90% upto 95% then to 98% then to 99% and higher. No matter which method, the end result is filling in the gaps.
forgetting grammar till later - vix86 - 2012-03-20
Nukemarine Wrote:All aspects of language study have diminishing returns. About 800 hundred Kanji are used in 90% of the words you'll ever see, 1500 words that populate 90% of the sentences and a few dozen grammar points cover 90% of the sentence styles (statistics pulled out of my ass, but there are compiled lists that show I'm close). To not formally study at least those is being counter productive.I believe this and Jankensan's point about nuance are very good to keep in mind.
After that point, to use native material in your area of interest to find which kanji, words, grammar, four character terms, sayings, etc is not a bad idea. On the other hand, it's just as legit as continuing formal study to move that 90% upto 95% then to 98% then to 99% and higher. No matter which method, the end result is filling in the gaps.
I've already put my 2cents in but I'll elaborate to say that, for a near beginner, learning vocabulary should probably be prioritized. The reasoning being that you can appreciate the material you listen, watch, read; much quicker. You may not understand whats going on 100% (that nuance point), but you can feel like you you are accomplishing something because you can go "Oh hey! I didn't know that word 2 weeks ago but now that I've studied this latest batch of words now I do!" It might also be possible to argue that without a handle on vocabulary, you might have trouble picking apart what parts are content words and what parts are the grammar.
But you really need to know how to conjugate verbs and know how the general particles work. Otherwise you'll flounder in understanding even the basic stuff.
The logical step after you have a handle of like 4-6000 words under you belt is to work on fleshing out your grammar so you can apply those words and get the nuance across.
forgetting grammar till later - SomeCallMeChris - 2012-03-20
I'm with Splatted - study a little grammar every day, and study vocabulary with the rest of your time. (You'll need to study the vocabulary in your grammar resources at least, anyway, just to be able to understand examples!) Aside from Splatted's point that you can't cram grammar well - you also can't understand words without being able to understand sentences, and you can't understand sentences without knowing the words. Studying grammar or vocabulary to the exclusion of the other means you memorized a lot and still can't understand.
Everybody studies grammar - people that say they don't study grammar ask very silly questions in forums like this one and learn from the answers instead of studying beforehand. In other words, they end up studying from the possibly conflicting opinions in a forum full of learners instead of studying from the carefully crafted advice of an expert.
forgetting grammar till later - chamcham - 2012-03-20
It's a real shame that you want to skip grammar.
It so well organized in Japanese.
In terms of grammar, Japanese is so neat and tidy.
It is one of the few languages where they
STRICTLY follow the rules with VERY FEW exceptions.
So it's like you get the grammar for free.
Just memorize the rules and you're done.
It's not like English where we break the rules so many
times that they almost don't seem to matter.
I can almost guarantee you that particles will stop you
dead in your tracks unless you're Korean (since they have
particles and many are nearly identical to Japanese).
For particles, I'd recommend "All About Particles".
It is last and only book you'll ever need for particles.
forgetting grammar till later - vix86 - 2012-03-20
chamcham Wrote:For particles, I'd recommend "All About Particles".This book has been suggested often and it may be good, I don't know, I've never owned it. But wouldn't the Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar be a potentially better choice. AAP is cheaper for sure, but most people agree that DB&IJP are some of the best books money can buy for a Japanese learner. You can buy them off Amazon Japan DBJG and DIJB.
It is last and only book you'll ever need for particles.
forgetting grammar till later - chamcham - 2012-03-20
"All About Particles" is great for its specialized purpose.
It probably has every particle you can think of( and even words
that you'd never think are considered particles) and lists all of
their usages(with explanations and example sentences).
So whenever you come across a particle you don't
understand, look for it in the book, and then figure
out which usage is appropriate.
In the beginning, what I used to do is circle every
particle in each sentence and then match them to
the usages in AAP.
Particles are something that doesn't exist in most languages.
So it's nice to have a book that is just dedicated to that one
subject.
DBJG and DIJB are very comprehensive and great as an
overall grammar reference. It's among the most detailed
grammar references you'll find.
But for particles, I'd say AAP is more concise and better
suit for particle study. For me, I separated my study of particles
from the rest of Japanese grammar. It worked better for me that way.
But, you can't go wrong with any of the books, though.
NOTE: Google Books has a preview of All about Particles here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=F9tbADWrNQkC&printsec=frontcover&dq=all+about+particles&hl=en&sa=X&ei=mF9pT5rlF8iAgweWptTQCQ&ved=0CD8Q6AEwAA
forgetting grammar till later - Tzadeck - 2012-03-21
(Chamcham, I like that you organize your posts as if they were written in verse.
Next time try to rhyme the end of each line, and also alternate between stressed and unstressed syllables. You could be the Shakespeare of the koohii forum.)
forgetting grammar till later - vix86 - 2012-03-21
chamcham Wrote:Particles are something that doesn't exist in most languages.This is somewhat false. Particles are basically postpositions. In other words they follow the word they modify. English has prepositions, meaning they come before the word they modify. So particles like に、で、まで、から、へ, exist just as well in English. Particles like は・が・を can depending on situation, be considered unique.
So it's nice to have a book that is just dedicated to that one
subject.