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+--- Thread: 自分、自ら、己、自体、身 and 自分自身 why so many for the same meaning? (/thread-9178.html)
自分、自ら、己、自体、身 and 自分自身 why so many for the same meaning? - matrixofdynamism - 2012-03-12
I have seen/heard all of them being used somewhere in life but don't understand when which is to be used and if they are interchangeable. I do not suspect them to be interchangeable but why have so many words to express basically the same meaning??
O_O
自分、自ら、己、自体、身 and 自分自身 why so many for the same meaning? - Mesqueeb - 2012-03-12
matrixofdynamism Wrote:I have seen/heard all of them being used somewhere in life but don't understand when which is to be used and if they are interchangeable. I do not suspect them to be interchangeable but why have so many words to express basically the same meaning??"Why" is a question you should never ask when learning a language.
O_O
The Japanese ask English speakers: Why do you have articles?
When to use which could be explained I guess, but would be wasted time for you to start digging into those small differences. Better use your time on listening/reading more Japanese than reading english explanations.
No seriously. Why don't we just ditch *the* articles? xD
自分、自ら、己、自体、身 and 自分自身 why so many for the same meaning? - howtwosavealif3 - 2012-03-12
lol onore is not equal to jibun. it's just funny.
just want to throw that out there.
and somebody can say the same thing back to you about english. how would you answer that? and there's your answer to your own question
自分、自ら、己、自体、身 and 自分自身 why so many for the same meaning? - SomeCallMeChris - 2012-03-12
howtwosavealif3 Wrote:lol onore is not equal to jibun. it's just funny.Really? In the dictionary the first definition of 「己」 includes 「自分」 as a primary meaning.
just want to throw that out there.
おの‐れ【己】
《「れ」は「われ」「たれ」などの「れ」と同じもの》
［代］
１ 反射代名詞。その人、またはそのもの自身。自分。自分自身。「―を省みる」
'equal' is too strong a word for any of these words, but they do have an overlap in meaning.
And the reason is essentially because they have different emphasis and connotations. Each one has situations that it is uniquely suited to as well as the situations where it overlaps with one or more of the other. Also because of regional dialects, borrowed words from chinese and/or synthesized compounds from kanji, etc, the words listed and many more have been created. The ones that haven't been discarded are there because a substantial number of speakers perceives a difference.
We have as many in English - it's just easier to concretely identify the difference between myself, oneself, itself, himself, herself, themselves.... but harder to explain why we keep both 'by ___self' and 'personally'. If you really care... it's time to start looking at unabridged dictionaries with good etymology.
自分、自ら、己、自体、身 and 自分自身 why so many for the same meaning? - howtwosavealif3 - 2012-03-12
they also each have nuances (some stronger than others like "onore") which makes me laugh out loud when someone says that they're equal. nuance is important.
自分、自ら、己、自体、身 and 自分自身 why so many for the same meaning? - SomeCallMeChris - 2012-03-12
howtwosavealif3 Wrote:they also each have nuances (some stronger than others like "onore") which makes me laugh out loud when someone says that they're equal. nuance is important.Posting just to laugh at someone without explaining anything might be considered rude by some people.
The nuance is pretty subtle for a foreign learner, おのれ is more or less a humble じぶん. That it's also used effectively as a curse word in anime (and possibly among yakuza and bikers in real life, I wouldn't know about that personally) is derived from the fact that a humble term directed to the outside circle is insulting, not because of any difference in fundamental meaning. (おのれ used sincerely is also pretty archaic, though, I'm not sure how much it's actually used outside of books and set expressions; but, again, that a term is dated doesn't change the -meaning- of the word, just the appropriate places to use it.)
自分、自ら、己、自体、身 and 自分自身 why so many for the same meaning? - vix86 - 2012-03-12
SomeCallMeChris Wrote:Its easy to forget what its like to be new to the language. This happens to me all the time.howtwosavealif3 Wrote:they also each have nuances (some stronger than others like "onore") which makes me laugh out loud when someone says that they're equal. nuance is important.Posting just to laugh at someone without explaining anything might be considered rude by some people.
To the OP. As has been pointed out already, they are not really the same, there nuances to the words. This serves as a good example of why you can't simply look up a word in a J-E dictionary and assume its the word that you need. Just like in English, there are some words which are semantically similar, but just don't "sound right" for the sentences. Trying to use 自ら for when you want to say 私 might leave people scratching their head. Heres my run down on context usage for the words.
自分-This often functions like the Generic You in English. You can also use it as a form of あなた when you want to avoid that pronoun but don't want to use きみ. I forgot to add that in some dialects (Kobe/Osaka-ben), that people like to use 自分 as a pronoun(私).
自ら - I never hear this really, but it seems similar to 自分. It could be formal or somewhat archaic.
己- Only hear it in TV shows. Don't use it in real life. It functions on same level as きさま.
自体-I don't really hear this by itself, I feel like I've heard 自体に though maybe a few times. ALC shows it has only a bit of use. It seems to get used as a way to refer to a group/category. Similar to 自分 but 自体 is probably for inanimate.
身/自分自身-Deals with your body. "Your person" that sort of thing.
People are free to correct me on any errors.
---
I await the topic about how Japanese doesn't have enough adjectives to describe stuff like English does
.
自分、自ら、己、自体、身 and 自分自身 why so many for the same meaning? - SomeCallMeChris - 2012-03-12
vix86 Wrote:自体-I don't really hear this by itself, I feel like I've heard 自体に though maybe a few times. ALC shows it has only a bit of use. It seems to get used as a way to refer to a group/category. Similar to 自分 but 自体 is probably for inanimate.I've seen it a few times, it's used in 'the (whatever) itself ...' expressions. It only appears in the middle of complex explanations to emphasize the distinction between something and the things associated with it (a container and its contents ; the equipment in a factory and all the people/buildings associated with it ; whatever has 自体 appended to it is being isolated from the complex it is in.)
The dictionaries indicate that it can be used as a synonym for 自分 (perhaps especially one's own body) but I've never seen it. I agree that it seems to mostly be like an inanimate 自分.
Quote:己- Only hear it in TV shows. Don't use it in real life. It functions on same level as きさま.In addition to the insult-form, I've seen it properly used as a humble 'oneself' in fiction by characters who are speaking in でございます form. Only to refer to the speaker or someone serving under the speaker.
Quote:身/自分自身-Deals with your body. "Your person" that sort of thing.I always see 自分自身 as 自分自身で何々した ... did such and such by and for oneself. It's emphatic redundancy '(subject) really did this themselves and didn't delegate it'. Only the strength of meaning is different from 自分で.
Quote:I await the topic about how Japanese doesn't have enough adjectives to describe stuff like English doesHeh. I was noticing this the other day, and thinking that Japanese has way more verbs than English but not nearly as many adjectives. That's just how it goes!
Anyway, I'm not in Japan and so my experience with the language pretty much entirely comes from fiction so I may have a skewed perspective.
自分、自ら、己、自体、身 and 自分自身 why so many for the same meaning? - vix86 - 2012-03-12
SomeCallMeChris Wrote:Anyway, I'm not in Japan and so my experience with the language pretty much entirely comes from fiction so I may have a skewed perspective.Thanks for clarification on some of the points. English has a lot of history to pull from. It has numerous languages and regions to gather words, hence the outlandish size of the vocabulary. There is a small distinction between the languages though that is worth noting. In English you are usually encouraged by your teachers to always find new words to describe something ("Don't use 'good' find a better word!"). Also repetition of the same word is seen as a 'bad thing.' In Japanese though I have been told that its perfectly fine to repeat the same word over and over. Whether this applies as equally in written form as in speech, I don't know.
I think the reason for the "more verbs" thing might be because of the different forms for intransitive and transitive verbs. Then when you start including various kanji forms and the nuanced use for them (観る is same meaning as 見る but is only used for watching like a movie or tv show. So maybe when 'spectating'). You can also double the amount of verbs by including any noun that can be する-ed.
自分、自ら、己、自体、身 and 自分自身 why so many for the same meaning? - yudantaiteki - 2012-03-12
howtwosavealif3 Wrote:they also each have nuances (some stronger than others like "onore") which makes me laugh out loud when someone says that they're equal. nuance is important.The original poster was asking about the difference, so posting just to laugh at him without giving any information is completely unhelpful. Especially when you're wrong -- you're obviously thinking of the insult "onore" you see in anime, but the "self" meaning shows up in some set phrases, like 己の分 (one's part).
自分、自ら、己、自体、身 and 自分自身 why so many for the same meaning? - matrixofdynamism - 2012-03-13
so conclusion is that they really are interchangeable after all, I was just confused why I do I see so many different words being used to describe what I precieved as the same thing, is there something like any of these is only for the 1st person (e.g me speaking) or that it is only used to describe the third person/thing?
What does insult "onore" mean? Last time I heard this word was when Madara was talking to Konan in Naruto Shippuden episode last week.
自分、自ら、己、自体、身 and 自分自身 why so many for the same meaning? - SomeCallMeChris - 2012-03-13
matrixofdynamism Wrote:so conclusion is that they really are interchangeable after allNoo.... I wouldn't say they are interchangeable, just that they have the same -denotation- not the same -connotation-.
Because おのれ is a humble word for 'oneself' it should only be used to say 'me' or to say 'him/her' for someone in the speaker's in-group. To use it for someone in earshot, or worse yet, to directly address someone with it, is to indicate that -they- are in the lower position. Hence, it becomes insulting even though it still only -means- 'oneself'. Using it that way has become standardized in Japanese though to the point that if you use it to mean 'You' it's essentially a curse word and better interpreted as 'You bastard' even though it has nothing to do with illegitimate offspring.
(If you're not sure, and the format has audio and isn't just written... おのれ the antiquated 'oneself' is spoken flat and smooth, while おのれ the insult is usually draw out in three clearly increasing pitch steps, おぉ↑のぉ↑れぇ！)
(Or is it low-high-low? Hnhhh... It's pretty distinct but I can't quite fix it in my memory right at the moment.)
自分、自ら、己、自体、身 and 自分自身 why so many for the same meaning? - bigpun69 - 2012-03-13
My girlfriend (who is native Japanese) told me that when I said おのれ、it made her laugh as it's not used generally in conversation unless you want to sound like a samurai. Her words, not mine. She said she's not used to hearing おのれ without it being followed with 死ね!
So, probably best not to use it in daily life I think. Same sort of thing with わし, われわれ and other personal pronouns like that. Stick to the simplest, most common forms and you'll be fine.
自分、自ら、己、自体、身 and 自分自身 why so many for the same meaning? - vix86 - 2012-03-14
bigpun69 Wrote:われわれわれわれ is actually used quite a bit. You will generally hear it used by your superiors when talking to a group of people, with said people being inclusive. So a superior talking to subordinates would ok, but using われわれ to someone in the store, on the street, and even to friends would be both weird and potentially offensive. われわれ gives an air of superiority to the speaker, think of it as the royal "we." (Note: The emperor speaks in われわれ。)
自分、自ら、己、自体、身 and 自分自身 why so many for the same meaning? - zigmonty - 2012-03-14
vix86 Wrote:LOL... so i should stop using it at work then. That's what i get for imitating my (japanese) boss.bigpun69 Wrote:われわれわれわれ is actually used quite a bit. You will generally hear it used by your superiors when talking to a group of people, with said people being inclusive. So a superior talking to subordinates would ok, but using われわれ to someone in the store, on the street, and even to friends would be both weird and potentially offensive. われわれ gives an air of superiority to the speaker, think of it as the royal "we." (Note: The emperor speaks in われわれ。)
自分、自ら、己、自体、身 and 自分自身 why so many for the same meaning? - matrixofdynamism - 2012-03-14
So they have different nuances and used under specific conditions only,
but can you explain with a couple of examples as to what "insulting use" is? It will be much clear if there is an example. When Onore means "me" how can I even use it to say "you" when talking with another person?
自分、自ら、己、自体、身 and 自分自身 why so many for the same meaning? - SomeCallMeChris - 2012-03-14
None of the words listed in the topic mean 'me', they all mean roughly speaking 'one/oneself'. The notion of 'oneself' is equivalent to 'me/myself' when the topic of a sentence is the speaker, is 'him/himself' when the topic is some third person, and is 'you/yourself' when the topic is the listener.
Typical use of the 己 as an insult?
己、死ぬ気か？ -> "You" (lowered status), have a wish to die?
Likely to be translated naturally as 'You (explicative), I'm going to kill you' because that's usually what it means (although sometimes it means 'stop what you're doing or I'll kill you', or 'don't push me, I can kill you easily'. Sometimes it's even translated quite literally as 'Do you want to die?', give or take some cursing.)
That and おのれ、ふざかね (Don't fool with me, you bleeping bleep!), おのれ、何言ったかよ (What the bleep did you say to me?)
The easiest way to identify an insult use of おのれ is that the response is physical rather than verbal. Well, in media. It might in real life too, if it was said among the sorts of people that get into fights, but I suspect mostly it would just have people think you were crazy in a very dangerous and unpleasant way. If you experiment with using this word in real life, I highly recommend being 100% certain that the person you are speaking to is not capable of taking you in a fight, you know, just in case.
自分、自ら、己、自体、身 and 自分自身 why so many for the same meaning? - matrixofdynamism - 2012-03-14
thanks for the detailed explaination guys,
I really appreciate it.
自分、自ら、己、自体、身 and 自分自身 why so many for the same meaning? - bigpun69 - 2012-03-29
And remember, it's hard to break the habit as a native English speaker but personal pronouns are just not needed in a lot of cases in conversational Japanese.
自分、自ら、己、自体、身 and 自分自身 why so many for the same meaning? - Tori-kun - 2012-03-29
What's about 自ら（みずから）
自分、自ら、己、自体、身 and 自分自身 why so many for the same meaning? - WronglyPartitioned - 2012-03-29
howtwosavealif3 Wrote:they also each have nuances (some stronger than others like "onore") which makes me laugh out loud when someone says that they're equal. nuance is important.And it makes me laugh that you think downloading Korean subtitles for Japanese shows and then using Google Translate to translate that back to Japanese is a good idea.
Just wanted to throw that out there.
自分、自ら、己、自体、身 and 自分自身 why so many for the same meaning? - WronglyPartitioned - 2012-03-29
Tori-kun Wrote:What's about 自ら（みずから）I found this explanation on Google:
Quote:基本的に「自分で」と「自ら」は意味の違いはありません。Source
ただ、「自分で」と言った場合、ある一人の人が自分で何かをする、という「個人」に限られるのに対し、「自ら」は複数の人間や団体を主語にしても使用できる点が違います。
Sounds good to me.