+- kanji koohii FORUM (http://forum.koohii.com)
+-- Forum: Learning Japanese (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: The Japanese language (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-10.html)
+--- Thread: Pitch accent - how to get better at it? (/thread-9172.html)
Pages:
1
2
Pitch accent - how to get better at it? - Zorlee - 2012-03-10
Hi!
I posted a recording of a Japanese speech I wrote on Lang-8 yesterday.
(http://lang-8.com/100139/journals/1355958)
Up until now I've felt pretty confident about my Japanese accent, but according to the comments I received I obviously have a long way to go.
Even though I wasn't exactly thrilled to learn the fact that my pitch accent is far from native-level, I'm glad that I've realized that this is something that needs work.
The good thing is - I have no problem hearing differences in accent.
For example, a guy on Lang-8 wrote this comment:
アクセント ('と''はアクセントの位置を指しています。)
どう’ぞ --> ど’うぞ
日系ブラジ’ル人 --> 日系ブ’ラジル人
指してい’ます --> 指’しています
不就学（ふしゅうが’く） --> ふし’ゅうがく
ダブル・リミテ’ッド --> ダブル・リ’ミテッド
よくあ’る問題 --> よ’くある問題
五歳（ごさ’い） --> ご’さい
に’’じのか’けはし教室 --> に’じのか’’けはしき’ょうしつ the strongest accent would go to “か”
にせんじゅ’ーねん --> にせんじ’ゅーねん
After reading this comment, then listening to the recording again, I had no problems hearing my mistakes. I was also able to correct my pronunciation when reading the speech again.
However, I don't know if just reading it again with correct pitch accent is enough for it to "stick".
For example, I can HEAR the difference between 橋 and 箸 (sorry for the over-used example), I can pronounce the words without any difficulty, but I'm not sure if I'm able to use the correct pitch accent when using those words in a normal conversation etc.
My first thought was: I gotta start shadowing.
I've never done shadowing before. I'm thinking about starting to shadow the NHK news etc to improve my pitch accent. But again, I'm not sure if this method will make the correct pitch accent "stick".
I have audio on all my cards, so luckily I've learned the correct pitch accent of many words without even trying. But I've started to notice that audio sometimes isn't enough. I'm probably going to start adding pitch accent to my vocab-cards from now on, using the number system (found in 大辞林 etc).
I know there's a lot of guys on here thinking that if you "just immerse yourself enough, you will sound like a native".
I'm not here to start a debate around this thing, but to let you guys know - I've been listening to Japanese non-stop for 2,5 years, so I don't think immersion is the problem here.
Do you guys have any other recommendations for improving ones pitch accent?
And do you guys know of any good media players for shadowing? I need a media player that is very accurate when you f.ex want to start a clip at 5,5 seconds. (VLC is very inaccurate in these cases, sometimes starting a clip at 4 sec, when the stuff you want to shadow starts at 5,5 sec. etc)
Thank you guys so much for your help.
Zorlee.
Pitch accent - how to get better at it? - Fillanzea - 2012-03-10
I don't think that immersion can totally solve accent-related problems. I look at highly fluent English speakers who've spent decades in the U.S., like Henry Kissinger and Arnold Schwarzenegger. Almost no one learns English as an adult without any sort of accent. I think it is just something your brain can do better when you're younger.
I don't have the answer at all, but shadowing seems like a reasonable idea.
Pitch accent - how to get better at it? - pudding cat - 2012-03-10
I sometimes shadow the news but I think longer podcasts can be helpful because if someone is talking about a single topic for a long time you'll get more repetition of important words and so it'll be easier to remember the correct pitch accent.
When I come across new words reading something online I always use rikaisama's JDIC audio function and repeat it a few times so when I furst say it I'm using the correct pitch accent. I like to think this helps
Pitch accent - how to get better at it? - Javizy - 2012-03-10
Last time this topic came up, I started adding the 大辞林 codes to my flashcards like you intend to do. Since I have audio too, it really helps reinforce the accent, and acts as a test too. If I thought the audio of 島流し was accentless, I'll know I was wrong when I see the ③. It also helped me quickly recognise patterns. For example, most repetitive (畳語?)擬態語 like さくさく, ぎらぎら, ふわふわ etc tend to be code ①, and compound words like 島流し, 手放し, 物笑い etc tend to have the pitch at the beginning of the second word. I didn't seem to get any of these benefits from the audio alone, at least not as effectively.
I'm getting more and more confident in my ability to remember the correct accent for many words, even when constructing sentences on-the-fly, but like you say, the real challenge is in maintaining it autonomously during conversation. I can only imagine this is possible through a lot of practice (including shadowing and real conversation) and exposure. That said, a lot of very proficient speakers still tend to make even general pronunciation errors, particularly in モーラ rhythm, when speaking freely, even though it's clear they're able to do it well when conscious of it (check out 世界のみんなに聞いてみた or ネプ＆イモトの世界番付 for examples).
One reason I have confidence I won't become another シュワちゃん is because I've put in the effort to learn to recognise/produce the patterns and have the 意識 necessary to absorb them. 意識 is one reason I think it's a good idea to study grammar and pronunciation in advance, instead of gambling on everything taking care of itself through exposure.
As a bit of consolation, since adding the codes to my cards with audio, I've found that the native speakers get a number of them wrong. My girlfriend said some words sound weird a long time ago, but now I can recognise the accent and see the code, I can verify for myself. It tends to be the more difficult, obscure words, rather than the core 6000 sort of stuff. So maybe this suggests it's not such a big deal if you can't perfect everything. Also, some words have an accent, and alternatively no accent (you'll see codes like 3 0), so it gives you some margin of error. Personally, I'll be happy if I can do something close to the core 6000 so I sound normal for the majority of the time. It's not such a big deal if I can't nail 腹上死 or something. I actually use the deck purely for shadowing.
Pitch accent - how to get better at it? - Zorlee - 2012-03-10
Sounds really interesting, Javizy!
Do you do whole sentences or single words?
Since the accent of a word changes based on the sentence structure, I'm interested in hearing how you tackle isolated words vs. whole sentences.
How is your Anki deck set up?
I'm currently going: Word -> Reading/Definition/Audio.
This is great for reading, but I'm thinking about changing things up a bit to focus more on pronunciation.
Thank you so much
Pitch accent - how to get better at it? - dizmox - 2012-03-10
Fillanzea Wrote:I don't think that immersion can totally solve accent-related problems. I look at highly fluent English speakers who've spent decades in the U.S., like Henry Kissinger and Arnold Schwarzenegger. Almost no one learns English as an adult without any sort of accent. I think it is just something your brain can do better when you're younger.Though, would Arnold Schwarzenegger have been as successful if he just had a voice like anyone else? An accent isn't necessarily a bad thing. (｀・ω・´)
I don't have the answer at all, but shadowing seems like a reasonable idea.
Pitch accent - how to get better at it? - Javizy - 2012-03-10
Zorlee Wrote:Do you do whole sentences or single words?My vocab deck format is the same as yours, although I have a couple of 例文 thrown in too. The Core 6000 deck is set to Audio -> Sentence. I'd say the vocab deck helps for pitch "training" in general. It's what has made me confident in picking it out while listening and reproducing it. Sentences are a lot more complicated like you say, especially when multiple verbs are involved. The Core 6000 sentences have helped me get used to the rises and falls in simple sentences like 彼は家にいます, and I occasionally shadow longer ones while watching 相棒 or listening to the news or something.
Since the accent of a word changes based on the sentence structure, I'm interested in hearing how you tackle isolated words vs. whole sentences.
How is your Anki deck set up?
I'm currently going: Word -> Reading/Definition/Audio.
This is great for reading, but I'm thinking about changing things up a bit to focus more on pronunciation.
To try to break everything down into a set of rules and attempt to follow them while constructing complex clauses during conversation doesn't seem realistic to me. Although, it could perhaps play a role in 意識 if there are any such resources you know of. I'm hoping knowing the words in isolation, practising simple sentences and gaining enough exposure will bring it all together, but it's certainly not guaranteed. One thing I want to avoid is focusing too much on it during conversation and sounding unnatural as a result.
Another problem is the fact that exposure isn't necessarily reliable either. If you watch the two 世界 shows I mentioned earlier, you'll be exposed to nothing but foreigners and 関西弁, and the wacky stuff they come out with is probably more likely to leave an imprint on your accent than the droning of some stiff on the news.
Pitch accent - how to get better at it? - Zorlee - 2012-03-10
Yeah, I lived 10 months in Osaka, and now I'm going for a Tokyo accent, so my accent is currently pretty much all over the place.
Going Audio -> Sentence looks interesting, but how do you rate yourself doing these cards?
I was thinking about going through Core 6000 vocab only with Audio -> Word + Accent code. I don't know how this would compare with Audio -> Sentence...
Hmm...
Pitch accent - how to get better at it? - Inny Jan - 2012-03-10
@Zorlee
Let's face it. Regardless whether you have an accent or not, you don't (and won't) look like a Japanese person. You won't be able to "blend in" with Japanese crowd and you always will be recognised as 外人. So I wonder, why put significant effort into something that has close to zero practical value?
I used to be an idealist when it came to English and wanted to speak with native like accent (I didn't like American timbre, I didn't mind Australian but my ideal was South England English). But there were other things in my live that I put higher priority on and native-like accent acquisition never eventuated. And I don't really regret that. Also, I found it a bit amusing when I discovered that having an accent can be a point of attraction with the opposite gender.
Pitch accent - how to get better at it? - Zorlee - 2012-03-10
Inny Jan Wrote:@ZorleeI agree with you on the fact that we'll never be able to "blend in", we'll always be the 外人 etc.
Let's face it. Regardless whether you have an accent or not, you don't (and won't) look like a Japanese person. You won't be able to "blend in" with Japanese crowd and you always will be recognised as 外人. So I wonder, why put significant effort into something that has close to zero practical value?
I used to be an idealist when it came to English and wanted to speak with native like accent (I didn't like American timbre, I didn't mind Australian but my ideal was South England English). But there were other things in my live that I put higher priority on and native-like accent acquisition never eventuated. And I don't really regret that. Also, I found it a bit amusing when I discovered that having an accent can be a point of attraction with the opposite gender.
However, I strongly disagree when you say that working on once pitch accent = something that has close to zero practical value.
I'm not doing this to become more Japanese, I'm Norwegian, and really happy with that.
I'm doing this to sound better, to communicate better and to reach a higher level in Japanese proficiency.
Some people don't want to do this, and that's fine with me, but I want to reach a really high level with my Japanese, and I really believe that working on once accent is a great way of doing this.
To have great pitch-accent is very good to have communication-wise. I've experienced several times being misunderstood because I messed up the intonation of a word (usually never happens when I use whole sentences, but it sometimes happens when I answer back using just a single word)
Pitch accent - how to get better at it? - Inny Jan - 2012-03-10
Having such a goal is a good thing. It helps you reaching those higher levels. But keep in mind that this goal might never be reached and be prepared for that. As for "practical" value, I stand by what I said. My own experience is such that my Japanese friends are happy when I can say "私の日本語が下手です。"
Pitch accent - how to get better at it? - kusterdu - 2012-03-10
Zorlee Wrote:Sounds really interesting, Javizy!I'm not sure the accent changes, but the accent contrast between certain words is not evident until they're combined with other words, such as particles (the classic example being 鼻 and 花 which are identical in isolation).
Do you do whole sentences or single words?
Since the accent of a word changes based on the sentence structure, I'm interested in hearing how you tackle isolated words vs. whole sentences.
How is your Anki deck set up?
I'm currently going: Word -> Reading/Definition/Audio.
This is great for reading, but I'm thinking about changing things up a bit to focus more on pronunciation.
Thank you so much
@Javizy I noticed there's an old thread about pitch accent where you were the OP. Now you're giving advice! It seems like you have come a long way and have figured out a study method that works for you, so you are a success story.
Pitch accent - how to get better at it? - IceCream - 2012-03-10
Hey Zorlee! i listened to your reading before seeing this thread, and didn't look at the responses...
and my thought (apart from "interesting speech!!"
) was, oh, i can hear his accent at some points a little today. So, are you sure you weren't just having an off day?? Because usually i can't hear it at all!!!
But yeah, apart from what you're already doing, shadowing longer stuff would probably be the most helpful thing, i think...
Pitch accent - how to get better at it? - nadiatims - 2012-03-10
Zorlee, your japanese is great especially considering how long you've been at it. 2.5 years right? I think it's still too early days for you to be worrying that your accent won't improve.
Somehow I feel like your pronunciation overall is worse here than in some previous videos you uploaded though. I'm guessing that's because you're reading instead of speaking spontaneously.
As an Australian, I can recognise a lot of different english accents, new york, california, deep south, Hawaiian, australian, new zealand, south african, various British, scottish, irish etc pretty easily. But even though I can recognize them easily and can imitate them all somewhat I wouldn't be able to do any of them well enough to fool natives, and that's with 20 plus years exposure to them via tv/internet/radio/life etc. I know some japanese people who speak english very well, who have spent time overseas, who have consumed english media for long periods and can still not recognize the major english accents let alone imitate them , even though they may have acquired one to some extent (especially in the case of people that have studied overseas). Because there aren't any major populations of native japanese speakers in different parts of the world (as is the case with English), when you're judged by natives, they're gonna hear your foreign accent first. If Japanese was the national language in say Taiwan, China or Korea, those people may well tell you that you speak japanese (the language) with a japanese (the country) accent. I've heard Japanese people in japan with australian accents and have been able to guess accurately that they studied there. If I were to meet them in Australia though, I'd probably immediately pick up on their japanese accent and be unaware of how well they've picked up the local accent. In other words don't let the lang8 critic get you down. Unless you're at a level well you can immediately recognise approximately where in japan someone is from (from accent alone, not vocabulary), I think its unlikely you're going to be able to make rapid deliberate changes to it. These things take time. The fact that you can recognize the accent and reproduce it in isolation already is a really good sign.
Pitch accent - how to get better at it? - Zorlee - 2012-03-10
Thank you guys for your comments!
Yeah, when I talk freely I usually nail the pitch accent, because I only say things I really, really know well. (Stuff I've heard being said on TV / on the radio a thousands of times before).
The problem occurs when I read articles out loud (or my speech for that matter) containing words and phrases that I usually don't hear around me.
I didn't realize how difficult this was before I actually tried it!
I'll talk to my Japanese professor about this. She's a Japanese linguist, so she should know a thing or two...
Pitch accent - how to get better at it? - Javizy - 2012-03-10
Inny Jan Wrote:Let's face it. Regardless whether you have an accent or not, you don't (and won't) look like a Japanese person. You won't be able to "blend in" with Japanese crowd and you always will be recognised as 外人. So I wonder, why put significant effort into something that has close to zero practical value?Maybe if your idea of blending in is not being picked out of a crowd as the 外人. If it means sitting in a room with a mixture of friends and strangers of different ages and communicating as proficiently as they do, I don't think skin colour and facial features come in to it. Someone with a high level of fluency and minimal accent is much more likely to be taken seriously in any country, especially in a professional environment.
Dismissing pitch accent outright is unwise. Unwittingly using stress would make you sound ridiculous and often incomprehensible. Even with some form of pitch-based accent, I've had people give me blank looks before realising what I meant and correcting me (even non-natives!). My girlfriend found my constant mistakes early on pretty irritating too. There are practical and superficial reasons for working at it.
I agree it's not worth spending much time on, but adding pitch codes and shadowing doesn't mean doing that. If you're talking about what's essential, you could make arguments against perfecting grammar accuracy and learning advanced vocabulary. Zorlee's made it clear he wants to advance his level as much as possible, so I'm sure he's interested in working at all aspects of Japanese, and pronunciation is an important part of that and often gets overlooked.
kusterdu Wrote:@Javizy I noticed there's an old thread about pitch accent where you were the OP. Now you're giving advice! It seems like you have come a long way and have figured out a study method that works for you, so you are a success story.I'm just sharing my experiences so far. I'm very much a work in progress!
Pitch accent - how to get better at it? - Tori-kun - 2012-03-10
@Zorlee: You made a video once about how you learnt Japanese and if I recall it correctly you were talking about your drums and in what way it helped you to learn 'the flow' or so. Do you play any other instrument? Looking at your corrections above from the comment, I would have intuitivly read it out like the corrections were. I play the piano and I have a pretty good hearing (like 85% 絶対音感) and I can hear those accents pretty good, I guess, although my overall comprehension concerning listening still sucks. I wonder, if that has to do something really with rythms, music and so on, so you might want to try learning a new instrument instead of trying too hard?
You're so good already, it might be worth a very inconventional approach?
Pitch accent - how to get better at it? - caivano - 2012-03-10
nadiatims Wrote:As an Australian, I can recognise a lot of different english accents, new york, california, deep south, Hawaiian, australian, new zealand, south african, various British, scottish, irish etc pretty easily. But even though I can recognize them easily and can imitate them all somewhat I wouldn't be able to do any of them well enough to fool natives, and that's with 20 plus years exposure to them via tv/internet/radio/life etc.That's because you haven't worked at them though right? I expect if you practiced one for a decent amount of time you could nail it.
I think accent/pronunciation is a language skill that's quite different to the rest of learning a language. The kids in my HS classes with the best accents were never the one's with the best English but the wannabe comedians and drama club kids who liked joking around doing impressions and stuff.
Re shadowing, I wonder with shadowing if it's best to only shadow one person. I think if someone was shadowing just one person's English accent it would be way better than shadowing different people with different regional accents.
Pitch accent - how to get better at it? - howtwosavealif3 - 2012-03-10
well if you're reading a word you never heard of... you're bound to read it with the wrong pitch accent. Sometimes, with the intuition for pitch accent that you developed over the time period, you can actually pronounce it correctly even though you've never heard do it before. So I look it up too... I use naver though (for words that aren't that common/ i don't know ).
For me, to be honest it took me like 2 years to like notice pitch accent and then probably I started being to imitate it around then lol so I think you're being too much of a worrywart here. I mean it's not really 2 years if you're counting it by AJATT...
Pitch accent - how to get better at it? - nadiatims - 2012-03-10
caivano Wrote:That's because you haven't worked at them though right? I expect if you practiced one for a decent amount of time you could nail it.Yeah, but even if I practiced it a lot, I think it's still harder than you might think. It takes a lot of conscious effort. I really think you'd need to practice staying in characters for hours on end like actors have to. Even then natives can usually tell their accents are fake. All these Australian actors who've been in Hollywood for years, hugh jackman, nicole kidman etc all still retain their australian accents.
where are you from caivano?
Pitch accent - how to get better at it? - caivano - 2012-03-10
Yep for sure. You'd need a lot of natural conversations to practice with too and need to learn some of the culture and character traits.
I'm from SW England. I think if a learner had an English accent from anywhere except SW England they would only need to get the accent 80-90% right as I'm only really familiar with my hometown's accent. Also I have met one German woman who had a flawless SW England accent after living there for 10 years. I was working with her for a few weeks before finding out she wasn't a native speaker.
Pitch accent - how to get better at it? - cjon256 - 2012-03-11
Zorlee Wrote:containing words and phrases that I usually don't hear around me.I think you're just setting the bar a little bit too high. I mean take the English word cenotaph (which I assume most people won't know). If you've just encountered it you probably don't know for sure where the accent is. But I would argue that it doesn't really matter very much. It is unlikely to come up in conversation, so if you stumble over it you're probably in good company.
I didn't realize how difficult this was before I actually tried it!
Similarly, how often is someone going to hand you an article in Japanese and say "read this" and expect you to not stumble over unfamiliar/obscure words. Certainly have fun challenging yourself to improve your pitch accent instincts, but I wouldn't waste much time worrying about it.
IMHO,
CJ
Pitch accent - how to get better at it? - temporary - 2012-03-11
Maybe some theory besides the immersion will help. I really like this book, for example:
田中 真一, 窪薗 晴夫: 日本語の発音教室―理論と練習
http://www.amazon.co.jp/日本語の発音教室―理論と練習-田中-真一/dp/487424176X
magnet:?xt=urn:btih
3SW2SH2XRNRI4VGJPRROR2VACYVSDE7&dn=intro2JapPronunciation&tr=http%3a%2f%2fbt2.rutracker.org%2fann%3fuk%3dOnhhjjSXs3
Pitch accent - how to get better at it? - howtwosavealif3 - 2012-03-11
something I forgot to mention is that for me... my pitch accent is a complete mess if i talk fast or try to talk fast because i'm not used to it. Like.... 丸出しアメリカ人. the americanness just comes out. My pitch accent is fine when i'm reading stuff/talking in a normal speed etc etc... Maybe if I actually have conversations with japanese people and naturally get my talking speed up and really get used to japanese I can fix it.. I wouldn't know but.. I'm not interested in talking to Japanese people. So I am aware that my pitch accent isn't always perfect and it will most likely just become awry if i try to talk fast but... my goal or enjoyment of japanese is not conversations... so I don't really care.
I would say your goal is fine and realistic if you really enjoy talking to japanese people a lot (ie. friends/girlfriend). I really don't like talking to people in general so... the fact that the language gets changed to Japanese doesn't really make a difference to me.
Pitch accent - how to get better at it? - al4bandi - 2012-03-12
Hey Zorlee.
I'm gonna tell you a mundane story:
I'm a native Croatian, but I was raised in Vienna. As you might know, both the German and the Croatian language are quite difficult. The Croatian language is even a tonal language, so it's quite hard to master, even for a "native" like me. Just a slight differences in the tone pitch and the word gets a new meaning, although unintentionally, which is sometimes really confusing.
Because of the fact that I was born in Vienna, was raised there and use German as my primary language : the native people will eventually notice that I'm not "pure". The same story in Croatia, when I'm down there for a vacation. By being who you are, you'll bring a new "flavours" to the language, which at times gets irritating for yourself (In this case for myself).
tl;dr.: Regardless how you try to change the reality, don't get your hopes too high. Otherwise your own burden will crush you.