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+--- Thread: Translation and Interpretation - on their way out? (/thread-9033.html)
Translation and Interpretation - on their way out? - Rainichireb - 2014-09-01
Hi all,
I'm applying for MEXT this year, and while I was originally interested in doing either a masters in Jap→En translation, I've been reading up a lot on the future of those industries in general and it has made me question my goals. I know that machine translation and interpretation won't, in the foreseeable future at least, replace human translators and interpreters completely, but there seem to be a lot of people saying that they will probably greatly reduce the number of jobs (from what I understand, this is especially true for translation). Just wondering if others have opinions/information on this topic as it relates to Jap→En translation, and if you think it's still worth perusing a masters in? Alternatively I'm considering doing a course related to IT and design.
Translation and Interpretation - on their way out? - erlog - 2014-09-01
Nobody is really worried that machine translation is going to take their job in any real way. Fundamental economic and practical factors are what most of the people who give you that opinion are basing it on.
J->E is kind of a dead end. The size of the Japanese population will continue to shrink unless drastic actions are taken, and so the amount of content produced in the Japanese language that could be translated is shrinking too.
Lots and lots of Japanese learners are also native English speakers, and so the market for J->E is completely saturated. The pay is low, the deadlines are tight, and for most people it's just kind of a waste of time unless you're somehow going to land one of the ever-more-mythical salaried J->E translator jobs.
E->J is where the real money is because the amount of possible content is just simply larger there. English is becoming one of the most common languages for people in many areas around the world while Japanese continues to be spoken really only in Japan and a few small diaspora in places like Brazil.
As long as that is true, the net flow of information will be into Japanese and not out of it. You should also know that translators/interpreters are expected to be able to do both J->E and E->J in your target subject area. If you can't do one of them then you can't really call yourself a translator/interpreter in my opinion.
In order to do government work in a lot of places as an interpreter/translator you also need to be able to do triple or quadruple duty by being able to swap between 3-4 languages.
Now, this shouldn't hold any of you back. I'm not telling you these things to scare you. I'm just trying to give you an idea of what the job you want is actually like in the real world.
Translation and Interpretation - on their way out? - Moregon - 2014-09-01
erlog Wrote:As long as that is true, the net flow of information will be into Japanese and not out of it. You should also know that translators/interpreters are expected to be able to do both J->E and E->J in your target subject area. If you can't do one of them then you can't really call yourself a translator/interpreter in my opinion.Reading tanslators' forums, I've got the impression the professionals don't look highly on doing tanslation to a language other than their native one. They're mainly translators of western languages though, maybe the matter is different for asian ones.
Translation and Interpretation - on their way out? - Arupan - 2014-09-01
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Translation and Interpretation - on their way out? - Rainichireb - 2014-09-01
Thank you all so much for your answers – it's really great to receive input from people who have experience in the 'real world' of translation who can give a realistic view of what the job really entails. It's really useful to help me make an informed decision.
Just a bit of background info: I'm in my final year of my undergrad (Eng lit major + Japanese and cultural studies minor) and have passed my N1 (know it's not the best measure of language ability, but just to give a rough idea) after a year's study abroad in Japan. I did an internship doing translation during my Spring break there (Jap→Eng) and do some online translation work now from my home country (about 6 yen/Japanese character).
I'm from a very small country where there are, maybe, 10-20 applicants for MEXT per year, and I have a good academic history + work experience so I think I have a *reasonable* chance at getting MEXT. As I mentioned, I was considering a masters in translation in Japan, but perhaps this is unrealistic considering my current language ability. My Japanese is a long, long way from being perfect, and me getting to a level where I can do Eng→Jap translation in 1 or 2 years seems unrealistic, and I also don't speak any other languages. Perhaps choosing to do a different masters course through Japanese and maybe considering translation/interpretation again after spending a few more years in the country would be a more realistic path...
Translation and Interpretation - on their way out? - mutley - 2014-09-01
I really can't imagine machine translation making much of a difference at the more specialized end of the market anytime soon. It's more likely to have an effect at the lower end of the market where accuracy isn't so important.
However, as Erlog said, the market in general is not great at the moment and there doesn't seem to be much hope of things improving.
It's still possible to make good money from translation, but unless you work in a very specialized and lucrative area, or are just really good at selling yourself, then it won't be easy.
Considering the above, I'd say that unless you're 100% sure you want to go into translation then it's probably better to pick up scientific or technical qualifications rather than translation ones. If you want to translate IT related stuff, a masters in IT will probably be just as useful as a masters in translation, assuming roughly the same level of language ability. I'm sure that many of the best paid translators are those that have built up years of technical experience in their chosen field and then switched to translation later in their careers.
To me it seems doubtful that E to J is more lucrative. Any figures that I've seen have suggested the opposite with J to E being slightly better paid.
I can only really comment for sure on the industry which I'm in, which is patents. There is a lot of J to E work done by Japanese natives as there aren't that many English native speakers who have the right experience. Even for someone specializing in patent translation, in-house work is probably not going to pay that well, but I sure a native English speaker with a couple of years experience would have no trouble finding salaried work if they wanted.
Translation and Interpretation - on their way out? - Danchan - 2014-09-01
Yes, I'm of the same opinion as the above posters. Computer translators are not really the issue.
There is work out there I think. I did get an offer myself from a large company in Tokyo to do in house work. But it isn't very romantic, and certainly not worth taking a graduate degree/taking on debt for.
If you are interested in doing this kind of work, a benefit is that you can do it online while doing something -else- (raising kids, living abroad, doing a PhD etc.). To tide you over for a few years or to have as a backstop, it could be something to do. But as a career? I think you gotta consider two things in that regard.
Firstly, as you mentioned, Japanese ability. A degree won't matter much if you can't read and understand what you have read well. There is no guarantee that you will come out at the end of it with that skill. I'm not sure what the reputation is of that particular program, but if we look at general Japanese language/Asian studies programs and the Japanese language skills of their graduates, and extrapolate from that... well... it is not very good. So, worth paying money for? Debatable. (EDIT; that said, if you already have N1 it might be a good place to start from.)
Secondly, Japan. The economy is not so good. I'm here in Tokyo right now, and it is pretty depressing. Then you add in all the various social problems, general malaise, and particular perks of being here such as hierarchical relations and what have you... Not necessarily a good place to pin your future career to. With some hard work and ingenuity I'm sure there is always a way, but it is worth thinking about.
Also... MEXT is nice if you can get it. Not great but OK. Buuuut then you have to go to a Japanese university. Which has significant drawbacks.
Translation and Interpretation - on their way out? - jimeux - 2014-09-02
If you do a search for J-E translation, you can find companies charging ¥10-20/Japanese character for areas like finance and law. A translation course would teach you a lot, but it wouldn't get you any of those jobs.
Get a specialisation like others have said. Continue developing your Japanese language (and English writing) ability, and get a bit of experience doing cheap freelance or hobby projects. You can always take a translation masters or other course in the future.
erlog Wrote:As long as that is true, the net flow of information will be into Japanese and not out of it. You should also know that translators/interpreters are expected to be able to do both J->E and E->J in your target subject area. If you can't do one of them then you can't really call yourself a translator/interpreter in my opinion.I think it's the people doing mediocre or erroneous translations into a second language that shouldn't be calling themselves translators. This seems to be a standard in Japan, since so many companies are happy to let English-speaking staff take care of translation rather than pay professionals.
Translation and Interpretation - on their way out? - bflatnine - 2014-09-02
I do freelance Chinese->English translation occasionally. I also took some classes in the translation/interpretation department at my university in Taiwan. I can tell you, the people who do well in that department (whether native English or native Chinese speakers) are those who already have an extremely high level of proficiency in their target language before starting. They usually also have a decent amount of experience in translation.
Your best bet, IMO, is to come to Japan and work on your Japanese for a while. A Master's degree in a program taught entirely in your target language is a fantastic (if brutal — speaking from experience) way of doing that. In the meantime, network with people and try to pick up some freelance work when you can. Most of my translation work has come from friends of mine who also happen to be translators. They saw potential in me so they sent work my way and served as mentors. Find people who make their living on freelance translation and pick their brains about the art and business of translation.
If you're good, you can make a good living on translation. I make about 10.5 yen per Chinese character (today's exchange rate), which is about average for those just starting out. J->E should be a bit better. Annual reports pay 14 yen, and those are mostly copy/paste from previous years and are quite long, so those are awesome to get. I can do about 3000 characters in a day if the stuff I'm translating isn't very specialized, slower if it is. Let's say about 2500 on average. I don't have or want enough clients to work full time (translation isn't my career, it's mainly a way of keeping my Chinese sharp and making some money in the process), but if I did, it would be a pretty good living, even here in Tokyo. Even better in Taipei.
Translation and Interpretation - on their way out? - vileru - 2014-09-03
General translation rates are constantly lowering due to improvements in computer-assisted-translation (CAT) tools, globalization, and digitalization. Jobs are moving from small translation houses to massive web-based translation companies (e.g. gengo, One Hour Translation, etc.). Even specialists (law, finance, technical, etc.) aren't safe. Gengo has plans to expand to specialized fields, and I'm sure the others will follow suit shortly.
In pure economic terms, translation has a terrible ROI, too. It takes years of intense language studying and practice to become a proficient translator. With that amount of time and effort, you could become proficient in some field of applied math, engineering, or finance and make several times the money.
However, I should add that interpreters, not translators, can enjoy unfathomable riches, especially U.N. interpreters and boardroom interpreters. I would assume, though, that most of these interpreters were raised bilingual and went to elite programs at places like the Monterey Institute of International Studies (just go watch the videos on their site to see how intense it is).
Translation and Interpretation - on their way out? - bflatnine - 2014-09-03
Actually, I don't think most conference interpreters are natively bilingual. I read an article by a NATO interpreter a while back that said only something like 25% are. However, you do have to have godlike skills in your chosen language, not to mention specialized training to be able to interpret simultaneously and handle the stress of doing so (not for me). But yes, you can make a ton of money as an interpreter.
Here's a fun video about interpretation.
Translation and Interpretation - on their way out? - mutley - 2014-09-03
It's quite hard to distinguish between the causes and effects of falling translation rates.
For example, does a company like mygengo cause lowering of rates or is the company itself a result of intense demand for lower rates due to poor economic conditions.
Most likely it's a bit of both.
It's a good idea to think about what sort of translation or interpretation you want to do as the situation is going to vary a lot depending on the specific area. Also, it would be a bit of a waste to take a course focusing say on translating literature if you want to become a legal translator or a conference interpreter.
Translation and Interpretation - on their way out? - erlog - 2014-09-03
There's also a lot of cases where bilingual(native or otherwise) people that work at an organization do interpreting when necessary. Businesses seem to like to hire bilingual people who can do the work directly rather than bring in dedicated interpreters or translators. It's easier for them to grab someone from down the hall to do a passable job while not having to pay them any extra money or spend time bringing them up to speed on the situation. The dedicated interpreters are nice, but it seems like the price is high because it's a smaller market that companies avoid making use of when they can.
I have friends who tell me that they basically do their main job, occasionally translate, and once in a blue moon interpret in a random meeting. I would say that most of the people who end up doing interpreting would say they're not actually interpreters. When the economy tightens up I think the market for specialized interpreters and translators goes way down because companies are trying to handle things internally more by making use of bilingual hires.
At this point I've actually done more interpreting than I have translation because I find the pressure exhilarating and there's less fussing over tiny mistakes. Translation takes so much time. There's always a better way to word something, and clients always expect it to be absolutely perfect. Everyone seems to think translation is much easier, but I find translation to be soul-crushing while finding interpreting to be amazing.
The sense I've gotten with interpreting is that everyone knows interpreting is really hard, and so as long as you are able to navigate through a Japanese conversation using keigo then it's mostly fine. I should say, though, that while there is a lot of leniency with regard to small grammar mistakes, there is quite a lot less leniency when it comes to manners and customs. Most of the times I have messed up while interpreting have come down to lack of knowledge of Japanese business culture, and not really about basic grammar.
Translation and Interpretation - on their way out? - vileru - 2014-09-04
erlog Wrote:I should say, though, that while there is a lot of leniency with regard to small grammar mistakes, there is quite a lot less leniency when it comes to manners and customs.I can't stress how true and important this is. You can use keigo perfectly, but no one will give a damn if your choice of words doesn't conform to the culture.
For example, it'd be a big mistake in a translation comment to say:
"I wasn't sure about the meaning of some terms in their context, but I've translated them as follows"
(以下の用語について、文章内の意味が分からなくても下記の通りに訳しました).
This would be insulting because it suggests that your client doesn't write clearly. Furthermore, saying 分からなくて makes you look unknowledgeable and unprofessional (because it's reactive, rather than proactive, and therefore comes off as whiny and lacking initiative. Someone might read the sentence and think, "使えない人" or "迷惑な人.").
Instead, you'd have to say something like:
"To make the terms below clearer in context, I've translated them as follows"
(以下の用語について、文章内の意味を明確にするため下記の通り訳しました).
Phrasing it like this shifts the focus away from any inadequacies in the text and your difficulty translating it, and brings the focus to how you took the initiative to make the translation as best as possible.
Conclusion:
Getting a feel for the correct way to word things is definitely the most difficult and most frustrating part of the language.
Translation and Interpretation - on their way out? - Arupan - 2014-09-04
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Translation and Interpretation - on their way out? - vileru - 2014-09-04
I translate J>E freelance whenever I have spare time. Would you mind pointing out the mistakes and showing how they could be fixed? The second Japanese sentence is an exact revision of the first based on my wife's feedback (she's native Japanese), but I don't dismiss the possibility she made a mistake. (Note: the first sentence wasn't originally written that way. I changed the structure to match the second in order to emphasize how one word could affect the entire feel of a sentence).
Translation and Interpretation - on their way out? - erlog - 2014-09-04
I think the thing that's confusing is that those sentences are saying completely different things. The point you're trying to make is a good one, but those examples don't demonstrate it.
In the first sentence you're saying that you translated something even though you didn't understand it. In the second you're insinuating you understood it well enough to make your translation extremely clear.
This might be an idiomatic case that I'm wrong on or something, but it just feels like a bad example.
Translation and Interpretation - on their way out? - Arupan - 2014-09-04
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Translation and Interpretation - on their way out? - vileru - 2014-09-04
Sorry to continue derailing the thread with this technical discussion, but it's somewhat related to the OP and of general interest to our user base, so I assume it's worth posting.
erlog Wrote:In the first sentence you're saying that you translated something even though you didn't understand it.The first sentence says I'm not sure what the terms mean. 分からない can also mean "unsure" or "not sure." Both sentences essentially express the same idea, but the second is meant to sound less confrontational.
Although, for clarity's sake, I could say "以下の用語について、文章内の意味が不明のため、下記の通りに訳しました." However, though it matches the tone of the rest of the sentence better than 分からなくても, it's obviously accusatory, and so I avoided it.
Alternatively, I could have said 分からないですが, which would've slightly better matched the tone of the sentence. Either way, the sentence would sound unnatural, but that's the point. No one speaks like that in Japanese.
@Arupan
I appreciate the detailed reply. There are a few points I'd like to discuss, however.
Arupan Wrote:1. The 2nd sentence should be something like this → 次の用語に関しては、文章内での意味をより明確にするため以下のように訳した。1. Did you replace 以下 with 次 to avoid repeating the same word at the end of the sentence or is there another reason?
2. 文章内での意味 → で is a must here.
3. より明確にする → they were already defined once but were just a bit confusing, so you should use より. This way it won't sound rude to your client as well.
4. 下記のとおり訳した should be 以下のように訳した. 下記 is usually used when you are making a reference to another chapter / section or something, for example.
5.訳しました → you shouldn't use ます形 when you translate.
2. Why can't it be omitted in this case? Furthermore, my wife wasn't able to explain why to me, but my initial reaction was that 内 and で are redundant. Could you explain why they aren't?
3. This is a great suggestion that my wife and I both agreed on when we saw it. Nonetheless, there's nothing wrong with omitting より. It's basically the difference between saying "make clear" and "make clearer." The sentence just sounds better with it.
4. I'm not sure about the point you make (please explain more or add links), but I found an interesting blog post, containing info that neither my wife nor I had known, discussing the proper use of 下記の通り.
5. Maybe my initial post wasn't clear. I said that the sentences were meant to comment on a translation, i.e. they are meant as correspondence with the client. They're not part of a translation.
Edit: readability and minor content revisions
Translation and Interpretation - on their way out? - yudantaiteki - 2014-09-04
Arupan Wrote:→ 訳しました → you shouldn't use ます形 when you translate.I think this depends entirely on what you're translating. If you are translating something from English to JP that would normally be written in ます形 in Japanese, then you should use it.
Translation and Interpretation - on their way out? - Arupan - 2014-09-04
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Translation and Interpretation - on their way out? - mutley - 2014-09-04
Surely whether your comments are written in plain form or -masu form depends completely on where they are written.
Translation and Interpretation - on their way out? - Arupan - 2014-09-05
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Translation and Interpretation - on their way out? - dtcamero - 2014-09-05
vileru Wrote:In pure economic terms, translation has a terrible ROI, too. It takes years of intense language studying and practice to become a proficient translator. With that amount of time and effort, you could become proficient in some field of applied math, engineering, or finance and make several times the money.whoa seriously. unless you have a specialty and a very good (non internet-based) client, there's much better work out there than translation. i know it seems like just writing, which if you're good at both languages should be simple enough... reality however is that you're writing tons of boring essays, like you're back in 5th grade doing book reports. i always hated that.
just my opinion, but i think all the energy required to get that good at a language, if you're not just going to be doing it anyway, is much better spent becoming relatively fluent and then learning another language.
then again, i think it's worth pointing out that so far we have been talking about translation as if it were being universally performed by people who are highly skilled.
there is a whole other world of translation out here...(growing at an exponential scale) that is made of people who are frankly not that good at their L2, but are able to translate at an acceptable level by using dictionaries and other electronic tools.
they will take longer, make more mistakes, and get paid around $.10/word... but if they are able to work at a sufficient enough scale, and have enough work, they are able to make ends meet without doing much heavy lifting.