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simple grammar Question on a sentence from "Lets learn Japanese" - pm215 - 2012-01-03
fakewookie Wrote:I'm merely passing on what the DBJG says in this case...pm215 Wrote:Also, you can drop the 言った after the quotative って: ジェーンは踊らないって。 [Again, not possible with と.This is not true.
[source: DBJG].
simple grammar Question on a sentence from "Lets learn Japanese" - zigmonty - 2012-01-03
merlin.codex Wrote:Now, let's check. If I were to add a narrator to the imaginary dialogue, it would go like this:I don't think anyone was suggesting pulling 皆は outside of those quotes, more as:
「みんな何話しているんですか」とAさんが聞きました。
Bさんは、「皆がおかださんがすてきな人だと話していたんですよ」と答えました
or 皆は、「おかださんがすてきな人だと話していたんですよ」と答えました
The latter is grammatically correct but the logic of the conversation is lost. The reason not to put 「皆は」 inside the quote is based on @yudantaiteki's statement. 「皆はおかださんがすてきな人だと話していた」 would be correct, however (not because there's no 「～んですよ」 but because there's no direct speech).
皆は、「おかださんがすてきな人だ」と話していたんですよ。
This is not saying entirely the same thing as the original sentence but is correct as far as i can see. And could easily be used in the same situation. I'm not a native speaker though.
I'm not really in a mood to argue about this though, because it's getting well into territory i'm not confident in. My point was more that randomly changing the grammar of sentences you find is a good way to come up with unnatural sentences, and you need to be careful that you're not just applying questionable rules (some of the stuff taught especially to beginners is in "lies to children" territory). This was directed as much to the original poster as to you.
simple grammar Question on a sentence from "Lets learn Japanese" - zigmonty - 2012-01-03
pm215 Wrote:Lol, yeah, i was only joking with the 何だと crack. It's pretty reliable general rule.fakewookie Wrote:I'm merely passing on what the DBJG says in this case...pm215 Wrote:Also, you can drop the 言った after the quotative って: ジェーンは踊らないって。 [Again, not possible with と.This is not true.
[source: DBJG].
simple grammar Question on a sentence from "Lets learn Japanese" - fakewookie - 2012-01-03
zigmonty Wrote:Ending sentences with と is extremely common.pm215 Wrote:Lol, yeah, i was only joking with the 何だと crack. It's pretty reliable general rule.fakewookie Wrote:This is not true.I'm merely passing on what the DBJG says in this case...
simple grammar Question on a sentence from "Lets learn Japanese" - Tzadeck - 2012-01-03
fakewookie Wrote:Ending sentences with と is extremely common.It's common to end sentences with a と, but not a quotative と with no verb, which is what we're talking about.
You can invert a sentence and end it with a quotative と, or include the verb in a previous or future sentence (or some other examples, e.g., someone else can say the verb and another speaker can complete the sentence, or the verb can be said only once but multiple とs can be used to refer back to the verb).
You can also end sentences with other meanings of と.
But it's uncommon to use と by itself to quote someone else with no verb.
simple grammar Question on a sentence from "Lets learn Japanese" - Thora - 2012-01-04
merlin, you had asked for some more explanation. Sorry if I misunderstood some of your points.
merlin.codex Wrote:Now, let's check. If I were to add a narrator to the imaginary dialogue, it would go like this:I'm afraid I didn't understand the relevance of this. Using your AB question, though (in past tense):
「みんな何話しているんですか」とAさんが聞きました。
Bさんは、「皆がおかださんがすてきな人だと話していたんですよ」と答えました
or 皆は、「おかださんがすてきな人だと話していたんですよ」と答えました
The latter is grammatically correct but the logic of the conversation is lost. The reason not to put 「皆は」 inside the quote is based on @yudantaiteki's statement. 「皆はおかださんがすてきな人だと話していた」 would be correct, however (not because there's no 「～んですよ」 but because there's no direct speech).
A: みんな何話していたんですか
B: 皆はおかださんが/はすてきな人だと話していたんですよ
It's 皆は here b/c the topic has been established in the question. (But 皆 could be は or が in other contexts and depending on intended emphasis.)
Quote:And now let's see what would happen if I were to use 「は」 instead of 「が」 when describing Okada:は here could be just a neutral topic marker or a contrastive topic marker. If it's contrastive, it's more likely to be contrasting okada with some other person. Contrastive markers can be used to contrast situations rather than the marked NP (projecting), but I don't really see why you'd assume すてき is being contrasted here (if that's what's you're doing.)
「皆でおかださんはすてきな人（だけれども、どうしようもないアホ）だと話していたんですよ」
Quote:... in this sentence 「皆」 isn't really the topic. Not to mention that there's a 「～んですよ」 at the end which is obviously used for conveying (new) information. A 「は」 marker would sound off. [...] In the first sentence, the 「～んですよ」 still exists, which again is used for conveying (new) information, thus use of 「～が」 is preferred.This implies that any part of the sentence containing new info will trigger a が-marked 皆. If the "new" info is the fact that stuff was being said about okada, 皆 could be a topic. Conversely, if the new info is who was talking, then 皆 is more likely to be a focus. In other words, 皆 can take が or は depending on what/where the new info is.
ケンが 日本語ができる。 日本語ができるのは ケンだ。
Focus Background Topic Comment
It's Ken who can speak Japanese. The one who can speak Japanese is Ken.
(exclusive focus が required）
The known or background info is 日本語ができる. The topic.
The new or emphasized info is ケン. The comment.
けんは 日本語ができる。
Topic Comment
Ken can speak Japanese.
If topic は： the new info is the comment 日本語ができる
If contrast は: the new info is ken or both.
simple grammar Question on a sentence from "Lets learn Japanese" - merlin.codex - 2012-01-06
.